Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

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Rate End of Time Part 2, 1-5

5 - For Gallifrey, For Victory, For the End of Time itself!
13
23%
4 - My people fought a race called the daleks, for the sake of all creation.
9
16%
3 - Planet of the Time Lords, that's got to be worth a look.
13
23%
2 - How can Gallifrey be gone?
9
16%
1 - Aaaand, Zero!
13
23%
 
Total votes: 57

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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Gramzamber »

Darwin wrote:huh. confirmed by RTD in episode commentary, the Woman in White is the Doctor's mother.

:shock:
What? WHAT?
It was bad enough her identity was left vague and we had to sit there and guess why the hell she's so significant to the Doctor but now he goes and says she's the Doctor's MOTHER?
What.. why.. WHY would even the lowest grade hack of a writer waste a character of that significance to this without even acknowledging what she is?
Appalling.
Parallax wrote:Um, so why did the TARDIS explode and catch on fire this time when it didn't during the 9th/10th sequence (which was more or less identical)? You'd think if there was a chance of this happening then the Doctor would have the TARDIS on a hospitable planet rather than zooming through rather inhospitable space.
To say nothing of the Master's regeneration which was supposed to be more unstable (the screaming and all that).
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Blayne »

I thought it was fairly obvious it was his mother. Romana would be "younger" as whatever her incarnation she was I think ms fanservice of Old Who.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Gramzamber »

Blayne wrote:I thought it was fairly obvious it was his mother.
Yes, clearly if the Doctor recognises a middle-aged lady, she must be his mother. :roll:
Romana would be "younger" as whatever her incarnation she was I think ms fanservice of Old Who.
You base this on what? Two regenerations? Even though Time Lords can be any age range in appearance?
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Blayne »

They already had a somewhat significant conversion between Wilf and the Doctor about father-son relationships which I consider a sub issue of the matter of the importance of family the conversation implied to me that the Doctor's father was already dead long before even in his reference of time.

Going back on it while Romana and Susan Foreman could both make interested appearances there's not that much bring his mother back into the story that would help the Doctor progress as a character and by back into I mean as a recurring role, he already had Donna Noble as something of a mother figure.

So as a character that they can definately 'put on a bus' his mother makes the most sense and at the same time visits the opposite consideration of his earlier conversation with Wilf to complete its significance.

Susan wouldn't be on the Time Lord council, Romana might be, but I always figured her as somewhat vain and wouldn't willingly stay in the form of a grandmother aged body.

I wouldn't say ONLY on two regenerations but the number of episodes and her role within them which I'm under the impression was probably around 20 serials.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Darwin »

What is it with British shows and their insistence on making any sort of gun go rattleclick Every. Time. it moves on-screen and usually when off-screen as well? I thought American shows were bad about this, but they got nothing on the British for Hideously Improbably Noisy Guns.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by PREDATOR490 »

It would have been better if the woman had been the Doctor's wife since he was SUPPOSED to be married and had kids. Instead its got to be his mother which is a complete waste of time. Additionally, shouldnt the Timelords be calling the Doctor by his fucking NAME rather than the title the Master and Doctor have chosen for themselves. By bringing his mother into it I would expect SOMEONE to know his name.

I found the gun noise hilariously funny. Ok, hes pointing the gun, I get it, I dont need you to whip out a sound that makes it seem hes swinging a minigun around every time he switches aim. That said, the Master doing the Palpatine lightning trick was perhaps somewhat right but in no way justifies the amount of BS this entire special goes through.

The emo whining at Wilf and his complaining about 'wanting to stay' strikes me as RTD transposing himself into the Doctor. Tennant wants to leave and I see no reason to make the Doctor throw a fit about regenerating when he has never done so before. Instead RTD has done a fucking stellar job of making another awful contribution to the series that the next producers will have to dig themselves out of. Least of all, getting the Master back in the picture because its not like anyone seems to have noticed the Master never gets mentioned after his 'final act'.
What a fucking asshole, he left a clear 'in' for the last Master, used it himself and in this episode spent more time with stupid self indulgent nonsense rather than make a story worth Tennant leaving on and the rebirth of a new Doctor. If this was the stupid shit they were keen to do then frankly, I would have taken all this years specials and turned them into one lone special in 4 parts covering the return of the Timelords / dealing with the consequences and then sending them back.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by AndroAsc »

Ok. Seriously I have 3 words. What The Fuck!?!?

Over a year of build up and suspense (since they had no regular season this year) and all we get is this shit? Let me repeat again... What The Fuck!?!? So much hype over the "death" of the doctor and we get a fucking anticlimax at the end. Did it ever occurred to them how it might be better to have the "Bad Timelords" faction return to reality for the next season? No... let's kill em off the moment we write em in.

Let's not forget about the greatest anticlimax, the foreshadowing in at least 3 episodes prior to this.

"Doctor your song is ending..." (The Ood, repeated twice I think)
"Doctor your song is ending..." (The psychic woman in that standalone special in mid 2009)

God knows how many times the Doctor's death was foretold, and at the end we get the Ood saying
"Doctor your song is ending, but you know what we forgot to say that the story will continue!"

And who's the person that "kills" him... oh its the old guy Wilfred! WTF!?!?!

WTF. I seriously thought they were going to kill off the Doctor and find some way to get him back (vs the usual regeneration). Fuckers. And why did the Doctor get so emo about the fact that he will be regenerating? Isn't this common shit and to be expected? It's not as if he's going to die... Jesus Christ stop weeping like a sissy! Not to forget what about the various comments from the writers that after Waters of Mars, the show would take a darker more serious tone? What dark serious tone? Seriously... I don't see it!

And for the next season (cause I saw the youtube vids), why da fuck are the Daleks back again? I thought the Dalek storyline was closed in the episode with Davros??? Can anyone say "overused villian"?
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Gramzamber »

Blayne wrote:They already had a somewhat significant conversion between Wilf and the Doctor about father-son relationships which I consider a sub issue of the matter of the importance of family the conversation implied to me that the Doctor's father was already dead long before even in his reference of time.
Which might've made a bit of foreshadowing sense if the President had turned out to be his father or something instead of Rassilon (it would've been cliche as hell, and Star Wars fans would cry foul, but as far as foreshadowing goes it would've been somewhat relevant).
Instead we get the entirely irrelevant, and I can't emphasize this enough, off screen tangent that the woman was the Doctor's mother. If RTD really wanted her to be his mother, why not have him TALK about her a bit? Maybe to Wilf, maybe describe something unique about her that Wilf later says to himself "hang on a minute.."

Again it's not that she's his mother that's the problem, it's that it's done so badly. When the writer has to TELL US externally about a very, very important aspect of a character that has never even been hinted at within the story, that's a bad writer.
It's a shame because Bernard Cribbins is always awesome, and there were some great scenes with him, and him and the Doctor all polluted by the shit being shovelled on top of it by RTD.
Going back on it while Romana and Susan Foreman could both make interested appearances there's not that much bring his mother back into the story that would help the Doctor progress as a character and by back into I mean as a recurring role, he already had Donna Noble as something of a mother figure.
So why bring her at all? I'm sorry but someone as significant as the parent of the god damn Doctor is not disposable enough to throw out after two episodes.
Though I suppose she's lucky she got more than the Time Lords themselves.
So as a character that they can definately 'put on a bus' his mother makes the most sense and at the same time visits the opposite consideration of his earlier conversation with Wilf to complete its significance.
It makes absolutely zero sense. She could turn out to be Mother Theresa and it wouldn't change a damn thing.
Susan wouldn't be on the Time Lord council, Romana might be, but I always figured her as somewhat vain and wouldn't willingly stay in the form of a grandmother aged body.

I wouldn't say ONLY on two regenerations but the number of episodes and her role within them which I'm under the impression was probably around 20 serials.
You're forgetting the little thing called the Time War which would probably through vanity out the window. And was the woman on the council? I didn't see her around the conference table, and I assumed that the two face-palming Time Ladies behind Rassilon (of which she was one) were some sort of psychic escort or something.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by J Ryan »

Gramzamber wrote: You're forgetting the little thing called the Time War which would probably through vanity out the window. And was the woman on the council? I didn't see her around the conference table, and I assumed that the two face-palming Time Ladies behind Rassilon (of which she was one) were some sort of psychic escort or something.
It was said the two following the president were the 2 dissenting voices from the vote. The pres says something along the lines of they will be forced to follow so they could see they were wrong for voting for non interference.

That does raise the question of if RTD intended the other dissenter to be someone significant.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Manus Celer Dei »

Gramzamber wrote:What? WHAT?
It was bad enough her identity was left vague and we had to sit there and guess why the hell she's so significant to the Doctor but now he goes and says she's the Doctor's MOTHER?
What.. why.. WHY would even the lowest grade hack of a writer waste a character of that significance to this without even acknowledging what she is?
Appalling.
I vaguely remember a while ago some interview or other mentioning that Moffat had asked RTD to put a couple of forshadow-y things into the specials for him to use when he takes over the show. Hopefully the woman is one of those things, given how mostly pointless she was, and she'll be showing up again so the character isn't wasted.

Or alternatively, given it was only mentioned she was his mother in the episode commentary, it could just be RTD being silly. I mean, he said the hand picking up the Master's ring in Last of the Time Lords was "The Hand of the Rani".

Or it may actually just be as dumb as it appears.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Gramzamber »

J Ryan wrote:
Gramzamber wrote: You're forgetting the little thing called the Time War which would probably through vanity out the window. And was the woman on the council? I didn't see her around the conference table, and I assumed that the two face-palming Time Ladies behind Rassilon (of which she was one) were some sort of psychic escort or something.
It was said the two following the president were the 2 dissenting voices from the vote. The pres says something along the lines of they will be forced to follow so they could see they were wrong for voting for non interference.

That does raise the question of if RTD intended the other dissenter to be someone significant.
IIRC Rassilon said "Only 2 voted against, to their eternal shame!". I don't think he'd include dissenters in his personal entourauge. I suppose it's RTD's usual thing of leaving openings for other writers to pick up on, like the Master's ring which he ended up using himself as we all know. :P
It would be very easy to have Time Lord dissenters turn up later on in their own TARDIS or something for example.
Manus Celer Dei wrote:Or alternatively, given it was only mentioned she was his mother in the episode commentary, it could just be RTD being silly. I mean, he said the hand picking up the Master's ring in Last of the Time Lords was "The Hand of the Rani".
Thing is even if it was RTD being an idiot, it still leaves this inscrutable woman with no explanation for who she is or what she's doing.
Now, if Moffat follows up on this it'll lessen the stupid a great deal.. hopefully he'll do better.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by PREDATOR490 »

How can any of the Timelord stuff be followed up on if by the very nature of this episode they have been cut off from ever coming back ?

Granted, the Doctor can have flashbacks to his childhood and we see this mother or whoever she is but they 'cant' be brought back without the question of what the hell this entire special was about. If they can get out why cant the rest of the Timelords ?

Although its not like Doctor Who has a habit of bringing things back that are presumed dead but I would hope Moffat wont fall into that hole that quickly. Fine, you wanna bring some Daleks then I can at least see WHY because they are an iconic part of Dr Who but bringing back other stuff is sliding further towards RTD's BS. I can already see the Master coming back given his magical disappearance without anyone saying anything.
As for the idea of the 'Daleks' coming back but not being actual Daleks, I suppose this is going to be like the Cybermen coming back but they werent really Cybermen. To which I say, fair enough. Weaker Daleks that are more like the old series certainly makes them more sustainable to rally against so I guess some hope remains.

In all honesty, I think it might have been better and more appropriate for this 'End of Time' special to completely reset the universe to reinforce the Doctors statement that time can be altered completely when he was dealing with the Gelf. No more Rose, Jack, Micky or Martha because they never met and thus give Moffat a complete new slate to start from. No more baggage from the old series except the Doctor's memories and perhaps bring back old enemies like the Rani, Spiders, Autons, old master and younger Daleks / Timelords.
Even if Moffat makes a masterpiece out of the mess RTD's left behind, the remnants of Tennant's run are going to remain. This episode felt like RTD was burning the house down while he was leaving as a royal fuck you and attempt to make his run look great when his replacements get lumbered trying to clear up the mess he left them with.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by xerex »

Gramzamber wrote:
J Ryan wrote:It was said the two following the president were the 2 dissenting voices from the vote. The pres says something along the lines of they will be forced to follow so they could see they were wrong for voting for non interference.
IIRC Rassilon said "Only 2 voted against, to their eternal shame!". I don't think he'd include dissenters in his personal entourauge.

Rassilon said the two dissenters would have to "bear witness like weeping angels of old"

hence thier pose covering thier eyes.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Gramzamber »

xerex wrote:
Gramzamber wrote:
J Ryan wrote:It was said the two following the president were the 2 dissenting voices from the vote. The pres says something along the lines of they will be forced to follow so they could see they were wrong for voting for non interference.
IIRC Rassilon said "Only 2 voted against, to their eternal shame!". I don't think he'd include dissenters in his personal entourauge.

Rassilon said the two dissenters would have to "bear witness like weeping angels of old"

hence thier pose covering thier eyes.
Weren't they doing that before the vote though? And if he was talking about the two right behind him why was he speaking like they weren't there?
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Stark »

Please. They had piles of opportunities to de-power the Daleks (and indeed this was expected almost every time they appeared) and instead actually made them MORE powerful. It doesn't take a giant (stupid) plot twist to make the Daleks less tiresome; it takes someone who's less of a grand troll than RTD.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by NecronLord »

Gramzamber wrote:Weren't they doing that before the vote though? And if he was talking about the two right behind him why was he speaking like they weren't there?
No, the scene at the end of part one is chronologically after the bits during the Time War, as it's being narrated in past tense. It must logically be just before Rassilon appears before the Master.

And he was speaking about them like that because he's a dick.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by NecronLord »

Blayne wrote:Susan wouldn't be on the Time Lord council, Romana might be, but I always figured her as somewhat vain and wouldn't willingly stay in the form of a grandmother aged body.
Whyever would Susan not be? She's had about five hundred years since we last saw her. About the only thing we know of her is that she had (for a Time Lord) exceptional telepathic powers. This is hardly something to ban her from being on the High Council.

And... right. Let's just not think about the Romana regeneration, and remember that this is part of why Destiny of the Daleks is a stinker right up there with anything RTD has produced. Of course she'd age like everyone else.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by NecronLord »

Darwin wrote:huh. confirmed by RTD in episode commentary, the Woman in White is the Doctor's mother.

:shock:
What time in it is that? I played through the commetry, but didn't hear that. Of course, I got pretty bored after he said 'I know Doctor Who fans and they'll hate this, hah hah hah'
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Stark »

NL, is that business Big Orange quoted back a few pages actually from RTD? Where he basically says 'lol I made something I think is cool but everyone will hate because it's nonsensical self-indulgent crap'?
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by NecronLord »

Stark wrote:NL, is that business Big Orange quoted back a few pages actually from RTD? Where he basically says 'lol I made something I think is cool but everyone will hate because it's nonsensical self-indulgent crap'?
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Gramzamber »

NecronLord wrote:
Gramzamber wrote:Weren't they doing that before the vote though? And if he was talking about the two right behind him why was he speaking like they weren't there?
No, the scene at the end of part one is chronologically after the bits during the Time War, as it's being narrated in past tense. It must logically be just before Rassilon appears before the Master.
Oh right. There's my observational skills for you.
And he was speaking about them like that because he's a dick.
Seems like an awfully silly thing to do when they might just get more pissed off and push Rassilon off one of those ledges. Sure he'd regenerate but there don't seem to be many ladders around there..
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Stark wrote:NL, is that business Big Orange quoted back a few pages actually from RTD? Where he basically says 'lol I made something I think is cool but everyone will hate because it's nonsensical self-indulgent crap'?
"I know doctor who fans. I can just see the assembled ranks [saying] you mean he just shoots one diamond and the story's over? Hah hah hah hah."
Bah who needs a proper resolution when you can use the extra time to go on a self-indulgent montage with all your characters and a bonus self-insertion date fantasy with Captain Jack.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by NecronLord »

Gramzamber wrote:Seems like an awfully silly thing to do when they might just get more pissed off and push Rassilon off one of those ledges. Sure he'd regenerate but there don't seem to be many ladders around there.
I'm gonna assume there's some kind of tractor beam system on some of those things. Otherwise the narrow bridges without handrails would just be deathtraps.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Patrick Degan »

There is only one way to make any of this tripe even remotely sensible:

The Doctor is completely insane.

Much, if not everything we've been seeing in nDW, has actually been our view into a deepening psychosis the Doctor is suffering, perhaps as a result of the Time War or something like it. As the condition has worsened over some unspecified period of time, the Doctor's view of reality has become increasingly warped and nonsensical. Really, this would very adequately explain everything that has proceeded in the last three years. Others on the outside —Time Lords, UNIT, the White Guardian, Eternals, the TARDIS, or whomever— have been trying to heal the damage to the Doctor's mind. Meanwhile, he's been living in his own little insane world inside his own head. He may be raving or he may be catatonic somewhere but of course to him everything he's "experienced" over one and possibly two regenerations is utterly real.

Now really, would this not make a lot more sense than trying to explain RTD's last three years as anything remotely logical? The Insanity Theory simplifies so much: economically explaining the Doctor meeting four versions of the same dreary "family", the Freudian TARDIS interior, the spontaneous regrowing of a severed hand, his baseless idealisation of a 19-year old little bint as a demigoddess who he then dispenses with by dumping off a double of himself with her in an unreachable "parallel world", the wild emotional swings, the increasingly shitty decisionmaking, his very uncharacteristic emo over evil little fucks which, in the real world, he never shed a tear over while watching them burn (Davros, the Master), the apparent "Year That Never Was" which he spends first as a shriveled up old man on a dog-leash and then as Dobby's little brother in a golden cage and subject to the whims of a psychotically cruel owner (talk about Freudian!) before going Jesus on his ass after a moment of perfect worship from billions of people, the End of Time™, &c, &c, &c...

All of it the evident product of a very disordered mind. 8)
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Blayne »

Just me or is the Dr Who wiki very very messy.
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Re: Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

Post by Thanas »

Okay, I rewatched it with heavy medication (read: a half liter of red wine).

Truth to be told, there are some redeeming features -

- David Tennants performance. The last minutes after the timelords disappear were very, very well acted
- my advice to anyone is to disregard the entire crappy special with the exception of the montage. Watch the montage alone without any of the preceeding stuff and I for one found it to be a good wrap to the RTD era, neatly absolving Moffat from the necessity of bringing any of the characters back while still giving the fans closure, and the final scene with Rose is a nice going back to where the RTD era started. Too bad it became worse and worse after S2.
- the music was good, as always
- The confidential was more moving than the real special. I suggest you watch it. It also had a far better final montage.
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