Na'vi Vs. Predator

[PkbonupePeter_Kcos8]

This is a somewhat spammy and irrelevant question, but did anyone else get kind of a "pirate ship" vibe off of the Pred vessel and crew at the end of Predator 2?

It may have been the case that the "honorable warrior" cliche wasn't even what the filmakers were going for. It might be that a certain Predator organization or tribe just using Earth as a bit of a personal playground in between trips.

[Oskuro]

Actually this was what the authors were going for originally, once the actual costume turned out to be crap, an artist came up with the rastafari-like version we know.



Edit: Yeah, the pic looks like a bunch of cuts and pastes because it is, I composed it from screen captures of the DVD making-of feature, where theres a panning shot of the prototype model.
The final costume was Power-Ranger-level of awful, to the point that the actors had trouble pretending to be afraid of the monster when filming the non-costume using scenes.
</tangent>

[Swindle1984]

Having them recognize creatures that they previously regarded as mere hood ornaments, after having one of these creatures kill one of their own, is totally silly. I mean, geeze, they kill things and use their bones as decorations - but when one of those things ends up killing them, it's suddenly all cool for them? Isn't that a bit weird?

I'm guessing you hate the ending of Zulu.

Okay, I've stayed out of this discussion so far since I prefer to mostly just watch, but this is just too stupid a line of reasoning to call out. How is Predator 2 even remotely comparable to Zulu? Zulu was a fucking battle in a war, not some glorified honor-testing hunting trip. and let's not even start with how that entire ending was contrived and never happened in the real Battle of Roarke's Drift.

Using that to deflect that point that the Predator's action didn't make sense and isn't realistic is already funny on that point alone, since that "we let them go because they are fellow braves" was also a complete fantasy the movie makers tacked on. In fact, it just supports the whole point that the Predators in Pred 2 were following that whole "honorable hunter/tribesmans/Bushido-wanker" cliche since that's exactly what the end of Zulu was: a proud savage but honorable warrior trope THAT WAS COMPLETELY MADE UP.

CONGRATULATIONS, YOU DISCOVERED THE POINT OF MY POST! YOU WIN A GOLD STAR STICKER! YAAAAY!

Chill, Sparky.

[Ilya Muromets]

Yes, because the point was made so abundantly clear when it was preceded by the following sarcastic statement:

Right, and humans have never done that to each other.

[Bilbo]

Heh, two things.

First, the whole letting Danny Glover live might have been just about that Pred leader. It reminds me of bullfighting around here, where a bull can be pardoned if he performs admirably (and thus has value for procreation purposes).

Of course, bullfighting is cruel and stupid bullshit.

Secondly, about the first Pred activating the Nuke and the second not doing it. WRONG! When hanging off the building, the Pred actually engages his Nuke, but Danny Glover chops off his hand and cancels it.
Yeah, the bastard was about to nuke a whole neighbourhood of unarmed civilians (many probably children), a neighbourhood, incidentally, wich lied on top of his ship, thus he might have killed his mates too.
Not very honorable, mind you.

I figured the nuke move in both movies was just the Predator's making sure that the prey did not acquire Predator technology. The Predator in the second movie already knew at that point that there were humans trying to capture it. So it knew the danger.

Also, do you really think an intersteller ship would be in danger of destruction from one of thos arm-nukes?

[Oskuro]

I think the ship would be in trouble due to all the rubble of the whole neighbourhood coming down on it (remember that Danny and the Pred went straight down an elevator shaft in the same building to get to the ship, wich can be explained as the Preds parking just under the slaughterhouse so they can get their snacks quickly).

Besides, since when does insterstellar travel capacity make a ship immune to damage? Spaceships are not particularly known for their hardiness, and there's little indication of how resilient are the Pred ships.


As for why did the Preds let Danny go, I've found some cut footage that provides startling revelations about what truly happened there:



</LOL>

[Mystikal]

In the first two scenarios, the Na'vi take it. Unarmed, or with melee weapons, the Predator goes down like a bitch against the Na'vi. They're fucking tall and fucking strong, and they can bitchslap Marines with their bows in a way the Predator never could've done with Ahnuld.

Situation C, I don't know. Barring some incident like Arnold, the Predator will definitely kill a fuckton of Na'vi unless/until he gets unlucky. The Predator has all the advantages.

Is there any reason the Pred can't keep his Cloak on during the fight? IF not, the Pred might dodge the blow and ninja the Na'vi. In the second scenario. The Pred could dodge the first blow or simply spook the Na'vi until it could stab/slash the Na'vi's softer bits. There is also the posibility of " Hacking down the tree" so to speak. Cut vulnerable-looking parts of the Na'vi's legs and finish it off from there. Of course the fight could go this direction with the Na'vi then smacking the Pred away into a tree, disrupting cloak. But the Na'vi would half to either hop over to the pred or crawl.

In H2H, I'm betting on the Na'vi getting a grip on slinging the Predator against a tree, ripping it apart, or some other gruesome yet efficient kill. Addendum-The Predator has enough strength to break the Na'vi's legs or ankles atleast right? Then "Chopping Down the Tree" could also work here.


I need some info.

How experienced are we talking here?

Newbie looking for it right of passage?

Hunter looking for some new tropies?

Or Wolf?

[takemeout_totheblack]

Considering the 'advanced' nature of potential prey on Pandora, I'd say we're looking at either a Chief, Wolf, or some fairly experienced warriors looking to really make a name for themselves. So yeah, the Na'vi are walking into a fight with centuries-old* warriors who constantly battle and subsequently pwn dangerous and deadly creatures of varying intelligence and potency across the expanse of space.
Hell, Pandora would be a fucking beacon to those guys! Imagine how cool a Titanothere skull would look above the space mantelpiece!

*they need not be centuries old, but I get the feeling that those big spiky guys at the end of Pred 2 and AVP are a bit longer in the tooth than the 'green' hunters that go gallivanting around earth, and I imagine such figures would be the ones leading expeditions into Pandora like hunting grounds.

[Mystikal]

Considering the 'advanced' nature of potential prey on Pandora, I'd say we're looking at either a Chief, Wolf, or some fairly experienced warriors looking to really make a name for themselves. So yeah, the Na'vi are walking into a fight with centuries-old* warriors who constantly battle and subsequently pwn dangerous and deadly creatures of varying intelligence and potency across the expanse of space.
Hell, Pandora would be a fucking beacon to those guys! Imagine how cool a Titanothere skull would look above the space mantelpiece!

*they need not be centuries old, but I get the feeling that those big spiky guys at the end of Pred 2 and AVP are a bit longer in the tooth than the 'green' hunters that go gallivanting around earth, and I imagine such figures would be the ones leading expeditions into Pandora like hunting grounds.

Nitpick-Actually, the Preds in the first AVP were the greenest we have seen. The ones in the Predator movies were a bit higher caliber. They were on a hunting trip, not some adolescent/manhood thing.


Now, if this is an experienced Yautja, then it stands to reason that they may well have had encounters with being of similar size and power. Remember that ship in the second one? It had shit-tons of skulls and trophies and the only one we recognized was the Xenomorph one.

Who knows what kind of shit predators have hunted? Especially since we are apparently considering the Yautja in question to be one the more experienced ones. Also, I read somewhere on Wiki that the Predators can adapt to survive on a earth atmosphere for up to 2 weeks before they die from asphyxiation. So without the breathing apparatus, this is how long they 'might' be able to survive without it if it gets taken away. Hold-up and I'll find the reference. Got to go to the bathroom.

[Mystikal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predator_(alien)

At the bottom of the EU part at the very bottom of the article is where I remembered it. And it is apparently 1 week, not two. Apparently, this comes from the graphic novel Predator:Homeworld.

[DudeGuyMan]

I didn't find the end of Predator 2 terribly out of character or hokey, personally.

Like okay, look at the way the Predators operate. They leave their comrades behind to go out alone into what is, to them, an alien civilization. They stalk and kill the most dangerous and heavily armed members of a species that possesses powerful personal weaponry able to severely injure or kill them. They even live off the land, raiding the local slaughterhouse or whatever rather than going back to their ship to eat. All while carrying a suicide nuke so they can blow themselves to hell if need be.

They do all this not because they're members of the military fighting in a war, they do it because they enjoy it. These guys are individualists and risk-takers to an extreme almost unheard of in human society, cloaking device or no cloaking device. Despite their toughness and the advantages granted by their technology, Predators are likely injured or killed in the field on a regular basis. They're not the equivalent of some casual hillbilly hunters, or even your typical big game hunters, they're the equivalent of a group of fucking psychotics who undertake crazy black ops special forces missions for fun.

I didn't really have a hard time believing that these guys would watch one of their own die without rushing to his aid. They are, after all, danger-loving individualist psychotics. I could easily see them having some sort of hardcore "You go into the bush alone, any shit you get into, you get out of alone!" ethic. Hell, I sort of like to imagine that the Predator being chased by Danny Glover commited a faux pas by fleeing back to the ship.

I mean that sort of ethic basically is "space bushido" really, but what the hell. If they were total pragmatists, they'd probably have a different hobby besides running solo through alien cities provoking combat with heavily armed natives. Or at least they wouldn't be so inclined toward blowing themselves up when defeat seems imminent.

As for not killing Danny Glover, I figured they were too embarassed. I mean not only does this Predator flee from his prey and come running back to the ship with his tail between his legs, he then proceeds to fall for the oldest trick in the book and gets himself killed by his own weapon in the hands of a single puny human. I can totally see the rest of them thinking "Oh man, I can't believe the little primate followed Frank all the way back to our ship. Come on Frank just kill it, you're making us look like pussies. Shit, that pussy Frank just got owned! We're gonna have to file a report! Well we can't just pile onto the damn human NOW. He's already half dead and wasting him when he's already basically beaten and standing in front of 15 of us on our own ship going 'Oh fuck it!' will just make us all look like sore losers and even worse pussies. Let's just... ignore him and take off. Screw it, maybe he'll get killed by the engine wash, that won't be our fault."

Then the one elder Predator thinks "Aw, that ugly little bastard had spunk for a prey species!" and as an afterthought turns and throws him the old flintlock pistol as a trophy. And maybe a subtle reminder that "You won today, assuming you get out of here alive, but we've been coming here a long time and we'll be back!"

So yeah, basically honor. But I find it a lot more palatable when it's imagined as being a sort of ad hoc semi-formal thing on the part of one particular subculture of Predators who may well be the loony fringe of their own society. Like the other Predators turned to the elder one afterward and went "Dude Bill, you gave it your trophy pistol? Haha, you big softie!" I mean it clearly wasn't some cultural thing he had to do, he sort of turned around and did it at the last minute like it just occurred to him.

The brainbuggification takes place when some hack writer looks at all this and decides that since the Predators we see are hunters, their entire society must be based on hunting. Since one particular group of Predators were sporting enough to not waste Danny Glover, their entire society must be hunters with a strict and complex warrior code. And yes I hate that as much as anyone.

If I were tasked with writing whole novels worth of Predator lore and fleshing out their society, just going "Yeah what you saw in the movies? That's all of it. That's the entire civilization, hunting. Fuck it." would if anything seem restrictive and inhibiting. It would have been a lot more fun if we found out that... say... hunting sentient species had been banned relatively recently and regarded as barbaric long before that, and the Predators we saw were tradition-clinging reactionary assholes breaking the law. Maybe coming to Earth because it's out of the way and they're not likely to get caught.

You could have fun with that. You could work that into an interesting story. Making them Klingons 2.0 was just lazy as hell.

I have no idea why I chose to finally delurk for this particular thread and post a wall of text about Predator society, but what the hell. Hi.

[Darth Wong]

They do all this not because they're members of the military fighting in a war, they do it because they enjoy it. These guys are individualists and risk-takers to an extreme almost unheard of in human society, cloaking device or no cloaking device. Despite their toughness and the advantages granted by their technology, Predators are likely injured or killed in the field on a regular basis. They're not the equivalent of some casual hillbilly hunters, or even your typical big game hunters, they're the equivalent of a group of fucking psychotics who undertake crazy black ops special forces missions for fun.

I didn't really have a hard time believing that these guys would watch one of their own die without rushing to his aid. They are, after all, danger-loving individualist psychotics. I could easily see them having some sort of hardcore "You go into the bush alone, any shit you get into, you get out of alone!" ethic. Hell, I sort of like to imagine that the Predator being chased by Danny Glover commited a faux pas by fleeing back to the ship.

I mean that sort of ethic basically is "space bushido" really, but what the hell. If they were total pragmatists, they'd probably have a different hobby besides running solo through alien cities provoking combat with heavily armed natives. Or at least they wouldn't be so inclined toward blowing themselves up when defeat seems imminent.

As for not killing Danny Glover, I figured they were too embarassed. I mean not only does this Predator flee from his prey and come running back to the ship with his tail between his legs, he then proceeds to fall for the oldest trick in the book and gets himself killed by his own weapon in the hands of a single puny human. I can totally see the rest of them thinking "Oh man, I can't believe the little primate followed Frank all the way back to our ship. Come on Frank just kill it, you're making us look like pussies. Shit, that pussy Frank just got owned! We're gonna have to file a report! Well we can't just pile onto the damn human NOW. He's already half dead and wasting him when he's already basically beaten and standing in front of 15 of us on our own ship going 'Oh fuck it!' will just make us all look like sore losers and even worse pussies. Let's just... ignore him and take off. Screw it, maybe he'll get killed by the engine wash, that won't be our fault."

Then the one elder Predator thinks "Aw, that ugly little bastard had spunk for a prey species!" and as an afterthought turns and throws him the old flintlock pistol as a trophy. And maybe a subtle reminder that "You won today, assuming you get out of here alive, but we've been coming here a long time and we'll be back!"

So yeah, basically honor. But I find it a lot more palatable when it's imagined as being a sort of ad hoc semi-formal thing on the part of one particular subculture of Predators who may well be the loony fringe of their own society. Like the other Predators turned to the elder one afterward and went "Dude Bill, you gave it your trophy pistol? Haha, you big softie!" I mean it clearly wasn't some cultural thing he had to do, he sort of turned around and did it at the last minute like it just occurred to him.

I like this idea. Instead of being lazy white American helicopter hunters, they're actually extreeeeeeme sports afictionados with a fucked-up macho code. This makes a lot more sense than that "warrior honour code" bullshit they went with in the comics.

In any case, I don't see why they would fight a Na'Vi unarmed. The Predators have the technological advantage, so they would dictate the terms of the confrontation. They are in it for thrills, not for suicide. If they're going to fight a Na'Vi, they won't make it too easy for themselves (eg- blasting them from an aircraft like Sarah Palin), but they won't make it too difficult either (eg- dropping their weapons). They used weapons against humans; there is no conceivable reason why they would refuse to use them against Na'vi.

Those super-sharp flying edged blade weapons they like to throw at people can slice through multiple cow carcasses without even slowing down; they would slice through Na'vi quite easily as well.

[Shroom Man 777]

So you're saying they're a bunch of psychopathic violence-for-pleasure PETA-fucking animal cruel dicks out for cheap thrills, and might be thought of as being complete assholes by the rest of their species? That's actually awesome - and very entertaining! You can imagine particularly boastful Preds adorn their friggin' vehicles with all sorts of xeno-skulls as a form of fashion statement, cruising down the road and waving Billy the Indian's spinal cord for all the Yautja hoes to see (or he can wear it as bling).

Their prowess as intergalactic hunter psychos might have them recruited as mercenaries in all sorts of alien conflicts, and then the employing aliens (Space Jockeys!) end up shaking their heads as the Predators epically fuck it up by turning a hearts and minds mission into something from Lord of the Flies. They can be sent to guard convoys from peasant uprisings, but by the time the convoy's reached its destinations the vehicles would be adorned by the skulls of entire depopulated villages!

[Darth Wong]

Actually this was what the authors were going for originally, once the actual costume turned out to be crap, an artist came up with the rastafari-like version we know.

<snip picture>

You can still see the original monster shape in the earlier parts of the movie where the Predator is only seen as a cloaked outline, if you look for it.

[Oskuro]

Yeah, they used the FX RED Costume for some of those. Seeing the thing on the making-of feature without the FX suddenly makes it feel like Power Rangers.



Guess if you had these red guys fighting the blue Na'vi with some white humans in between you'd get a nice all-american color scheme going.

[Mystikal]

So you're saying they're a bunch of psychopathic violence-for-pleasure PETA-fucking animal cruel dicks out for cheap thrills, and might be thought of as being complete assholes by the rest of their species? That's actually awesome - and very entertaining! You can imagine particularly boastful Preds adorn their friggin' vehicles with all sorts of xeno-skulls as a form of fashion statement, cruising down the road and waving Billy the Indian's spinal cord for all the Yautja hoes to see (or he can wear it as bling).

Their prowess as intergalactic hunter psychos might have them recruited as mercenaries in all sorts of alien conflicts, and then the employing aliens (Space Jockeys!) end up shaking their heads as the Predators epically fuck it up by turning a hearts and minds mission into something from Lord of the Flies. They can be sent to guard convoys from peasant uprisings, but by the time the convoy's reached its destinations the vehicles would be adorned by the skulls of entire depopulated villages!

So bascially Crocodile Dundee starts worshipping Khorne? Awesome.

[Night_stalker]

They left Danny alive I feel becuase he impressed them. Defeating a Yautja in CQB is damn near impossible, so they gave him a trophy and sent him on his way. Plus, who would believe his story? Preds use their wrist nukes to ensure that no one gets access to their tech, which speaks of some sort of Prime Directive, or just as a way of ensuring the hunt remains balanced.

[Molyneux]

They left Danny alive I feel becuase he impressed them. Defeating a Yautja in CQB is damn near impossible, so they gave him a trophy and sent him on his way. Plus, who would believe his story? Preds use their wrist nukes to ensure that no one gets access to their tech, which speaks of some sort of Prime Directive, or just as a way of ensuring the hunt remains balanced.

That, at least, seems fairly straightforward - they want a hunt, not a freaking war. They don't want their prey to get up to their level.

[Swindle1984]

They do all this not because they're members of the military fighting in a war, they do it because they enjoy it. These guys are individualists and risk-takers to an extreme almost unheard of in human society, cloaking device or no cloaking device. Despite their toughness and the advantages granted by their technology, Predators are likely injured or killed in the field on a regular basis. They're not the equivalent of some casual hillbilly hunters, or even your typical big game hunters, they're the equivalent of a group of fucking psychotics who undertake crazy black ops special forces missions for fun.

I didn't really have a hard time believing that these guys would watch one of their own die without rushing to his aid. They are, after all, danger-loving individualist psychotics. I could easily see them having some sort of hardcore "You go into the bush alone, any shit you get into, you get out of alone!" ethic. Hell, I sort of like to imagine that the Predator being chased by Danny Glover commited a faux pas by fleeing back to the ship.

I mean that sort of ethic basically is "space bushido" really, but what the hell. If they were total pragmatists, they'd probably have a different hobby besides running solo through alien cities provoking combat with heavily armed natives. Or at least they wouldn't be so inclined toward blowing themselves up when defeat seems imminent.

As for not killing Danny Glover, I figured they were too embarassed. I mean not only does this Predator flee from his prey and come running back to the ship with his tail between his legs, he then proceeds to fall for the oldest trick in the book and gets himself killed by his own weapon in the hands of a single puny human. I can totally see the rest of them thinking "Oh man, I can't believe the little primate followed Frank all the way back to our ship. Come on Frank just kill it, you're making us look like pussies. Shit, that pussy Frank just got owned! We're gonna have to file a report! Well we can't just pile onto the damn human NOW. He's already half dead and wasting him when he's already basically beaten and standing in front of 15 of us on our own ship going 'Oh fuck it!' will just make us all look like sore losers and even worse pussies. Let's just... ignore him and take off. Screw it, maybe he'll get killed by the engine wash, that won't be our fault."

Then the one elder Predator thinks "Aw, that ugly little bastard had spunk for a prey species!" and as an afterthought turns and throws him the old flintlock pistol as a trophy. And maybe a subtle reminder that "You won today, assuming you get out of here alive, but we've been coming here a long time and we'll be back!"

So yeah, basically honor. But I find it a lot more palatable when it's imagined as being a sort of ad hoc semi-formal thing on the part of one particular subculture of Predators who may well be the loony fringe of their own society. Like the other Predators turned to the elder one afterward and went "Dude Bill, you gave it your trophy pistol? Haha, you big softie!" I mean it clearly wasn't some cultural thing he had to do, he sort of turned around and did it at the last minute like it just occurred to him.

I like this idea. Instead of being lazy white American helicopter hunters, they're actually extreeeeeeme sports afictionados with a fucked-up macho code. This makes a lot more sense than that "warrior honour code" bullshit they went with in the comics.

In any case, I don't see why they would fight a Na'Vi unarmed. The Predators have the technological advantage, so they would dictate the terms of the confrontation. They are in it for thrills, not for suicide. If they're going to fight a Na'Vi, they won't make it too easy for themselves (eg- blasting them from an aircraft like Sarah Palin), but they won't make it too difficult either (eg- dropping their weapons). They used weapons against humans; there is no conceivable reason why they would refuse to use them against Na'vi.

Those super-sharp flying edged blade weapons they like to throw at people can slice through multiple cow carcasses without even slowing down; they would slice through Na'vi quite easily as well.

Um, have you ever shot at anything from an aircraft? Actually, have you ever shot at anything at all? I'm not sure what sort of firearms experience you have.

Shooting at something at any real distance takes skill and practice; it's not like in the movies where someone who has never handled a gun can hit five guys with five shots without even aiming. Shooting from an altitude takes even more skill (not as much as shooting uphill). Shooting at a moving target is pretty difficult. And shooting from a moving, unstable platform such as a small plane or helicopter is just ridiculous, and that doesn't even factor in windage.

Point being, there is absolutely nothing easy about shooting game from an aircraft and it's no more unsporting than the usual method of "pick a spot and bushwhack Bambi as he walks along, oblivious to your presence".

[Shroom Man 777]

He means "easy" in terms of "risk of oneself getting killed/harmed/eaten by the prey". Yeah, while shooting from a moving vehicle isn't easy, one is also NOT in danger of being eaten/harmed/killed by the prey when one's in a safe vehicle. So even if Predator Palin keeps on missing from her airplane, she can still just sit her cute little but in her plane and try to shoot again and again and again - her prey can't possibly fight back, and even though the prey runs there's no way it's going to outrun the airplane. Hell, all Predator Palin on the airplane has to do is to wait until her prey has tired itself out from running away from an airplane, while Predator Palin takes her time shooting at it as many times as she pleases until it does get hit and dies.

[Darth Wong]

Um, have you ever shot at anything from an aircraft? Actually, have you ever shot at anything at all? I'm not sure what sort of firearms experience you have.

I've shot a rifle before. That's not the point, and you're being an idiot. From an aircraft, I can waste 200 shots and still get my kill, because the animal can't outrun the aircraft. On the ground, if I blow a few shots, the target runs away and I wasted the opportunity. Also, there is zero chance of the animal somehow attacking and injuring or killing me if I fuck up from an aircraft.

Point being, there is absolutely nothing easy about shooting game from an aircraft and it's no more unsporting than the usual method of "pick a spot and bushwhack Bambi as he walks along, oblivious to your presence".

That is absolute bullshit.

[Oskuro]

I like this idea. Instead of being lazy white American helicopter hunters, they're actually extreeeeeeme sports afictionados with a fucked-up macho code. This makes a lot more sense than that "warrior honour code" bullshit they went with in the comics.

Actually, after rewatching the making-of feature on the DVD and hearing the artist who came up with concept say the creature was inspired in the idea of a Rastafari warrior, I've noticed something a bit troubling. We have these semi-bestial humanoids, who wear scarce clothing, feel at home in the wild, have tribalistic motiffs and culture, use sharp weapons and implements, and are all about the glory of the big "lion" hunt. The Predators are actually stereotypical africanSPACE black men!

I was half considering proposing these movies as reprehensible because of that, but seriously, if I had to overthink that notion so much to notice, I doubt it is really that obvious. Heck, the actor wearing the original Predator suit was black and didn't complain, nor did Danny Glover.

[SylasGaunt]

Plus they're also packing much much better technology than we are which helps undermine the stereotype as well.