The Race Vs. Earth in 2010

[Raxmei]

It's been a while since I read it. To the best of my recollection the Emperor's reply basically amounted to "Sucks to be you, good luck." The transmission lag really makes it impossible for him to have said anything else. Any instructions the Emperor could try to give would be based on a situation 24 years out of date by the time the conquest fleet received them.

[Simon_Jester]

I have not read the Colonization series, I didn't buy them and my library only carries the last 2. I would like to know what the Emperors reply was, if you know. All I know is that in the first WorldWar book, Atvar states that a transmission to Home takes 12 years (Race years) there, and 12 years back.

It would probably be the course of wisdom for you to read those books, because it gives a lot more insight into how the Race behaves when faced with technologically equivalent enemies.

-Even with their fore-warnings, the governments of Earth are too busy amongst themselves, and the information too top-secret, to be bothered toward allocating funds to develop possible weapons to defend the earth other than conventional, and new, ICBMS.

This is... only vaguely plausible. Remember that weapons for fighting enemies in orbit would double as for use against terrestrial powers. I'd expect at least limited development of weapons that are believed to be useful for fighting aliens, though how well they'll actually work is an open question.

-The race invasion is sudden, with dozens of nuclear bombs detonated in orbit to disrupt communications and other hardware. This has great effect, eliminating most civilian hardware. Military hardware is effected also, but to a much lesser extent. Regardless, NORAD and other NATO and Warsaw pact stations and facilities are left blind and unusable.

...Well, dazzled. Remember, a lot of hardware in this era was still vacuum tube-based and therefore relatively EMP resistant.

Also, I suggest you review the difference between the words "effect" and "affect."

The attack in the U.S meets much resistance, however, with their central command effectively out of actions, along with alot of hardware fried and the National Highway System which, ironically, helps the Race expand quickly, the U.S National Guard forces are pushed back, though they do inflict heavy casualties to Race forces.

By the way, a few things you should know:
-The US military has long planned ways to maintain communications and control in the event of enemy attack. During the late '60s, they would be very much prepared for a full nuclear attack, one that would not only EMP the country heavily, but would also involve major metropolitan areas and military bases going up in mushroom clouds. The chain of command will still operate, though I'm sure it will operate less well than it would normally.

In Europe, many of the Races landing sights are eliminated quickly. The only exceptions are several sights in the isolationist fascist Spain, and the large landing areas in Poland.

I suggest you review the difference between a "sight" and a "site."

Australia is equally frustrating. The terrain, which is to the liking and comfort of the Race, is defended guerrillas and bushmen, as well as regular Australian army units.

By this point in history, the Australian Aborigines were too few in number and too oppressed to have any real military effect. Resistance would be carried out almost entirely by white Australians.

This is one place where it seems far more likely that the Lizards would win; Australia simply doesn't have the manpower or weapons to repel such a large space-mobile attack force.

Note that various terrestrial powers will start launching nuclear attacks very quickly if they get stuck against the Lizards. This was a nuke-happy era.

Because of this, the bombings are conducted from high orbit, making them slightly inaccurate. Chicago, Kansas City, Warsaw, Kiev, Moscow, Beijing, Xian, Shanghai, Nanning, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Caracas, along with several other cities are destroyed. However, in order to conduct this mission, the Races killercraft must fly in the upper atmosphere and be picked up by the Races ships.

These are mutually exclusive.

Also, ICBMs are unsuitable for use against moving targets in orbit. However, it is VERY reasonable for the US and USSR to have developed surface-to-low-orbit missiles, like superheavy SAMs, tipped with nuclear warheads, given the alien threat which they knew about years in advance. These missiles (surface to orbit missile... SOMs?) could do what ICBMs could not.

And, again, I'd like to underline that the major world powers of this era would use nuclear weapons of their own against the Lizards. This was a common part of doctrine for fighting a powerful enemy.

-A massive assualt, led by NATO troops, crosses the Mediterranean and drives the Race south across the Sahara. In order to allow his troops the time to retreat, Straha uses 3 nuclear bombs to cover their retreat, turning vast swaths of the Sahara into glass. However, the NATO units are equipped for a nulcear battlefield, and continue their push, to the dismay of Straha.

Into the Sahara is credible. Across it is not, because there are no pre-existing paths for logistics to follow. The Lizards would probably start work on some roads or railways, but would not have had time to build anything really significant.

so, hows that for creativity?

As a plot it is... adequate, I'd say, with a few little details that need work.

The real challenge is, as always, competent writing.

[PeZook]

I'll throw Shroom into a fit, but the US had an extensive network of Nike-Hercules and Nike-Zeus SAMs deployed, many armed with nuclear warheads and with a flight ceiling of 48 000 meters.

There was extensive development of various ABM systems going on throughout the world. A world in 1967 would, paradoxically, have greater defences against the race invasion than today

[phongn]

Nike Zeus was not deployed; some continuing work is being done (which will ultimately produce Safeguard) but there is no real ABM system operational anywhere. ARADCOM is also in the process of being dismantled at this time to provide cadre for the new conventional army (which will be sent to Vietnam).

That said, superior Race electronic warfare may well have them able to jam the radars and command links used by US SAMs.

[Sarevok]

I have not read the books but have a question.

Why is the Race so weak given they have ridiculously fast interstellar propulsion ?

[Batman]

My best guess would be writer's fiat?
And I wouldn't really call 50PSL 'ridiculously fast' in a genre that has stardrive speeds so fast they won't work intragalactically BECAUSE of it.
I assume you meant ridiculously fast for something pretending to be 'hard' SciFi.

[Lonestar]

I have not read the books but have a question.

Why is the Race so weak given they have ridiculously fast interstellar propulsion ?

Because after Home got unified all work on weapons development stopped.

(no, really. Atvar even laments that if Home had taken longer to unify they would have had better weapons thousands of years later to crush Earth).

[Sarevok]

But weapons development do not work like a game of Civilization 3. Where if you do not research tanks you are stuck with horsemen even though your cities have airports and nuclear powerplants. An interstellar civilization should be thousands of years ahead of us in weaponry.

[folti78]

But weapons development do not work like a game of Civilization 3. Where if you do not research tanks you are stuck with horsemen even though your cities have airports and nuclear powerplants. An interstellar civilization should be thousands of years ahead of us in weaponry.

Nope, except for the 2 colonization campaigns before, their empire had been totally demilitarized in the last 100k years. Before every colonization, they have to rebuild their armed forces from scratch, following thousands years old manuals. (Which might have been censored as someone mentioned it before.)

Also, their technical development is painfully slow. Spoiler

One lizard character said something along the line of: "We don't introduce new technologies until we are sure that they are fully developed and completely debugged.".

And they expect everyone to follow their development speed too. Their probe examined Earth and human civilization in the 12th century and they expected us to use mounted knights and archers still in the 20th century.

[hongi]

But weapons development do not work like a game of Civilization 3. Where if you do not research tanks you are stuck with horsemen even though your cities have airports and nuclear powerplants. An interstellar civilization should be thousands of years ahead of us in weaponry.

Nope, except for the 2 colonization campaigns before, their empire had been totally demilitarized in the last 100k years. Before every colonization, they have to rebuild their armed forces from scratch, following thousands years old manuals. (Which might have been censored as someone mentioned it before.)

He can think up a million justifications for why their society is the way it is, but the fact is that the aliens and their weaknesses have been purposefully formulated by author's fiat so that we would win. The neutering is so complete that it stinks of artificiality.

[Samuel]

Also, their technical development is painfully slow.

You don't need tech development. At a certain point when you have space industry you can essentially grow forever. Think of the might of a civilization that has its GDP increase by 3% for hundreds of years.

[Zor]

But weapons development do not work like a game of Civilization 3. Where if you do not research tanks you are stuck with horsemen even though your cities have airports and nuclear powerplants. An interstellar civilization should be thousands of years ahead of us in weaponry.

They have had no pressures to make them develop weapons technology for tens of thousands of years. The only foes they have faced since their world was unified were at a bronze age level of development.

Zor

[Simon_Jester]

And, just to underline, that's what they expected to fight. Iron Age warriors.

Why would they even need to do more than dust off the blueprints for ancient automatic rifle designs to fight an Iron Age enemy? Given how expensive Lizard-style R&D is, why wouldn't that satisfy them?

[Sarevok]

Why would they even fight us in our terms ? Would we fight a bronze age army with spears and do badly because no one practiced that kind of warfare in 500 years ? An interstellar empire would consider ground warfare as we know it beneath them.

[spartasman]

The Race do not have the means to dominate a planet from space (besides from nuclear weapons, which they are reluctant to use because they are planning on colonizing the planet). They MUST land troops to secure ground sites for colonies.

[Vendetta]

Why would they even need to do more than dust off the blueprints for ancient automatic rifle designs to fight an Iron Age enemy? Given how expensive Lizard-style R&D is, why wouldn't that satisfy them?

Then they're retards. I mean when the European powers went around colonizing mud hut peoples they didn't go with knights and longbowmen, they went with guns and warships.

And the level of overall technological development required to even build ships which could traverse interstellar distances, the metallurgy, structural engineering, propulsion systems, telemetry, information gathering, and so on is all transferrable into battlefield advantage. Even if you arbitrarily say they don't have strike from space capability (though even if anyone in their crew has basic physics knowledge, "drop stuff" is strike from space capability) they should be trolling around in untouchable fighting vehicles dooming puny earthmen at ranges that WW2 weapon systems can't even dream of.

[Zor]

Why would they even need to do more than dust off the blueprints for ancient automatic rifle designs to fight an Iron Age enemy? Given how expensive Lizard-style R&D is, why wouldn't that satisfy them?

Then they're retards. I mean when the European powers went around colonizing mud hut peoples they didn't go with knights and longbowmen, they went with guns and warships.

Yes, and of course Europe was a unified stable power with no political upheavel, religious conflicts or internal or external threats driving their development of weapons technology anyway

Zor

[Atlan]

Why would they even need to do more than dust off the blueprints for ancient automatic rifle designs to fight an Iron Age enemy? Given how expensive Lizard-style R&D is, why wouldn't that satisfy them?

Then they're retards. I mean when the European powers went around colonizing mud hut peoples they didn't go with knights and longbowmen, they went with guns and warships.

And the level of overall technological development required to even build ships which could traverse interstellar distances, the metallurgy, structural engineering, propulsion systems, telemetry, information gathering, and so on is all transferrable into battlefield advantage. Even if you arbitrarily say they don't have strike from space capability (though even if anyone in their crew has basic physics knowledge, "drop stuff" is strike from space capability) they should be trolling around in untouchable fighting vehicles dooming puny earthmen at ranges that WW2 weapon systems can't even dream of.

But they didn't NEED any of that stuff for tens of thousands of years. They unified their planet BEFORE they went into space, and at that moment, weapons tech development slowed, and eventually ground to a halt, because there was no need for it. And when they found other life all the tech they needed was in their manuals, which they dusted off, and used. No need for expensive R&D, no development cycle, they already HAD designs for tanks and interface fighters which they could use and which were perfectly servicable.
Against iron age civilisations.

Do you really think that they would have had to develop the Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range for fighting iron age armies? They already had tanks. Why BOTHER going through the trouble of designing and building a lightning cannon or a flying tank with lasers? By their tech level they already ARE an Outside Context Problem for the enemies they thought they would be fighting. Developing new weapons technology would be a waste, no a boon.

[Samuel]

Than why are they useful at all against humans? If they fought only iron age, their tanks should have a main gun to work as mobile artillary, a machine gun to decimate any native massings, thin armor, poor electronics and a plush leather interior. In fact, the armor should be thickest on the top to deal with natives dropping rocks on them in mountain passes.

No need for expensive R&D, no development cycle, they already HAD designs for tanks and interface fighters which they could use and which were perfectly servicable.

They still have to build them and if they can make a simpler design which would be cheaper to build, there is no reason not to. You can say they were worried about it working, but the old designs probably were glitchy if they were made in anything like the environment our weapons are made in.

[spartasman]

The reason they hadn't modified their tanks was because they did not NEED them to be any better. Both the races that the Race conquered were very similar to them in biology and sociology. As soon as the Race took out their Emperor and instated their own, the Hallesi and Robatevs simply laid down and accepted it, as was their nature to people who they saw as above them. Thus, they did not need crowd suppression tanks, or tanks capable of withstanding rock attacks, they were not being attacked at all.

[Simon_Jester]

Then they're retards. I mean when the European powers went around colonizing mud hut peoples they didn't go with knights and longbowmen, they went with guns and warships.

Yes. Yes, they are retards.

The Lizards are retards in the classic sense: their development process is very slow. They do not design new technology quickly or easily. This may be a species thing, or it may be a cultural thing- a hundred thousand years of absolute rule by a God-Emperor is not the sign of a dynamic, innovative species.

Moreover, they are a species that has not needed to study war in tens of millenia. There is no need; they have a one-world government and the only weapons they need are police weapons. For which purpose automatic rifles are perfectly adequate, assuming the average citizen is unarmed.

Therefore, regardless of what other technology they may have, they do NOT have advanced weapons. They have not been continuously developing new and more powerful weapons along with their other technology. This is a major difference between the Lizard conquest of other planets and the European conquest of various colonies. Europeans invented machine guns and cannons to fight each other, not to fight a bunch of mud hut dwellers armed with spears.

And the level of overall technological development required to even build ships which could traverse interstellar distances, the metallurgy, structural engineering, propulsion systems, telemetry, information gathering, and so on is all transferrable into battlefield advantage. Even if you arbitrarily say they don't have strike from space capability (though even if anyone in their crew has basic physics knowledge, "drop stuff" is strike from space capability) they should be trolling around in untouchable fighting vehicles dooming puny earthmen at ranges that WW2 weapon systems can't even dream of.

Yes. Yes they should, if they were anything near as innovative as humans, or if they'd kept developing weapons in parallel with all their other stuff. They COULD probably have fighters that would put the F-22 to shame, tanks made out invincible nanowankium, automated battle robots, all that good stuff.

But they don't, because their distant ancestors united the planet before they had the technology to build such things and they, today, have no intention of spending hundreds of years debugging such powerful and dangerous technology.

This is the real respect in which the Lizards are alien. And yes, it's an author contrivance, one of the weakest parts of the story, and one that was obviously created specifically for the purpose of making the story possible (with WWII humans putting up a credible fight against an alien invasion).

And yes, it means that when faced with more innovative competitors the Lizards should get their asses kicked. They do; by the mid-21st century and the end of the last book, humanity is kicking the Lizards' asses, having far outstripped them in technology.

Than why are they useful at all against humans? If they fought only iron age, their tanks should have a main gun to work as mobile artillary, a machine gun to decimate any native massings, thin armor, poor electronics and a plush leather interior. In fact, the armor should be thickest on the top to deal with natives dropping rocks on them in mountain passes.

Because they didn't design the tanks specifically to fight Iron Age enemies.

They just dusted off blueprints for their ancient ancestors' equivalent of the M60 Patton and started manufacturing them. Or rather manufacturing the tooling to manufacture them (the original tooling being so old you'd have to stage an archaeological dig to find it) and then manufacturing the tanks. So they wound up with identical copies of the M60-equivalent their ancestors fought the Planetary Unification War with.

Which is far more expensive than it has to be, yes. But since the way the Lizards do R&D is (by human standards) absurdly slow and costly and laborious... it's still cheaper and easier than designing a new tank that is only just good enough to do the job.

[spartasman]

It was my understanding that all the Lizards equipment came from storage, where it had been since the Ssumaz dynasty took control.

[Simon_Jester]

That is not credible, since precious few materials (certainly not electronics and stored data) last even a tiny fraction of that long. The equipment has to be new or it wouldn't exist at all; it's only the archived plans that are ancient.

[spartasman]

In Homeward Bound it is stated that the Emperors palace along with several other buildings and cities had existed since before the Race became unified. The Race are meticulous when it comes to upkeep, and they design things to suffer few, if any, faults. I don't see how they wouldn't be able to preserve tanks in a storage building when they can preserve a palace which is subject to the elements.

[Batman]

Depends on your definition of 'preserve' I guess. The Cologne Cathedral still stands too. And you know what? Parts of it had to be regularly replaced pretty much from the word Go (resulting in a local legend saying that IF it is actually ever finished, i.e. no more repairs are ever needed, the world would end).
The key word here is 'maintenance'. The Race apparently did a lot of that on their buildings. Did they ALSO do it on their stored equipment?
Because if NOT Simon_Jester's complaint is perfectly valid especially considering the timeframe involved, which essentially means each and every part of the equipment had to (repeatedly) be replaced for the equipment to remain functioning.