A Borg Cube in Babylon 5

[Ghost Rider]

Where do our best "kilotons per second" type figures come from for phasers? That shot in Wrath of Khan that digs a nice, measurable trench out of Enterprise? Or something else?

For the Borg, you can take both of their attacks in their first encounter with Enterprise as well as a few of their attacks with First Contact. So why use something as far back as WoTK given we have no idea of depth from that shot, and worse still it's not the Borg. It would give an idea of a Federation phaser level in that era.

[Themightytom]

Given the time frame of the OP are we sure the Vorlons have their planet killers built and that the shadows are even awake yet? It is just as B5 is being built. if the Borg decide to hit a low tech but populated world, like Coriana 6 they could have an ass load of drones coupled with transporter technology. The borg were direct and aggressive from the Fed's perspective but the truth is they only sent ONE cube after that cube had already demonstrated superiority versus the federation flagship AND downloaded its memory banks.

if the borg builtt their resources and sent a probe instead of a full on commitment off everything they had they might be able to figure out at least the commercially available technologies in B5/

[Kane Starkiller]

In "Long twilight struggle" we see a Shadow beam slice through a Narn cruiser lengthwise without any impedance or flickering of the beam. Therefore the beam had to vaporize the entire length of the cruiser in 1/24 of a second as it sliced through. Say that the cruiser is on the order of 500m long and Shadow beam is roughly 10m wide compared to Narn fighters. Assuming cruiser is 95% air that is 1960m3 of material, say iron. Energy required to vaporize it is about 60TJ and the required firepower is 1450TW or 340kt/s as a low estimate.

During the First Contact battle Borg cube was never hit with more than two-three phaser beams or torpedoes simultaneously even when Picard ordered the entire fleet to concentrate their fire so the idea that a Borg ships can ward off the firepower from dozens or hundred Federation ships firing simultaneously is nonsense.
I would say that even one on one a Shadow ship has a good chance of destroying a Borg cube.

[Stark]

As I said, given the lack of Borg armour even if B5 weapons are an order of magnitude lower than the average ST weapon, they're still better off due to rate of fire, number of emplacements firing at once, etc. B5 isn't 'fire one gun every 10s' stuff like ST often appears to be.

Of course if the B5 stuff is really crap it won't matter.

[Kane Starkiller]

The problem younger races have is not firepower (their beams are rated at kt/s enough to threaten Borg Cube in numbers) but their low durability. They have no shields so Borg would be dropping Omegas and Sharlins like flies.

Of course Borg attempts to convert a chaotic galaxy into a group of mindless drones would immediately draw out Shadows and I doubt Vorlons had drones in mind when they talked about order.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Where do our best "kilotons per second" type figures come from for phasers? That shot in Wrath of Khan that digs a nice, measurable trench out of Enterprise? Or something else?

Phaserizing a largish comet in TNG, and calcs based off loose interpretation of some of the drilling into planets also from TNG. Starfleet Jedi is full of such nonsense.

Are you implying that phasers do not demonstrate kiloton level firepower?

[Stark]

The problem younger races have is not firepower (their beams are rated at kt/s enough to threaten Borg Cube in numbers) but their low durability. They have no shields so Borg would be dropping Omegas and Sharlins like flies.

They kill ST ships in a few hits anyway, and B5 ships have the numbers. I'm not sure they'd do WORSE than ST. The borg/ST tendency to fire one weapon at a time means it'll take them a fair while to plink through your average B5 fleet.

[Themightytom]

The problem younger races have is not firepower (their beams are rated at kt/s enough to threaten Borg Cube in numbers) but their low durability. They have no shields so Borg would be dropping Omegas and Sharlins like flies.

They kill ST ships in a few hits anyway, and B5 ships have the numbers. I'm not sure they'd do WORSE than ST. The borg/ST tendency to fire one weapon at a time means it'll take them a fair while to plink through your average B5 fleet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrancN6_yYA

They vary it up when fighting off groups. They're strobing that tractor beam around in a manner that is in fact quite reminiscent of a shadow beam, and while they seem to be aiming for the defiant they wing two ships in the effort that causes damage. When it finally catches the Defiant it VERY quickly disables it, knocking out is weapons and its shields based on the crewman's "We've lost" statement. Who knows if they were damaged before but they were firing away a second before the borg swatted them.

That doesn't necessarily imply the same efficacy against Vorlon or shadow ships. The Vorlon for one have the organic "learning" armor that the white stars have. Earth force on the other hand has easy targets that move ponderously in the form of destroyers, and that tractor beam whipping around seems likely to be effective against star furies. I'm not saying all their tractors do that, right after the Enterprise showed up and blew one away one on the other corner opened up and did apparently nothing.
The borg started one-shotting ships around 3:49, they took out two of them while Picard paused for dramatic effect (asshole). Either the borg were employing multiple attack modes according to their own priorities, Starting with the bigger ships off which none are still around, and ending with the smaller peppier ones or They spent some time depleting shields across the board and started with the little green balls as a finishing move.

I wouldn't give it to the borg in a stand up fight, let alone an invasion if they just show up and start a frontal assault with just the one cube operating at ST level tech. Even if they have transporters tractor beams and shields, B5 races field pretty big fleets and there doesn't seem to be enough of a disparity for a cube to take on a doze destroyers and a swarm of starfuries for example.

They could get very hard to stamp out however if they started beaming onto Earthforce ships and assimilating them. Grab one or two on a chance encounter and assimilate the technology and start working their way up the ladder in terms of firepower. Earthforce shoots first and asks questions later though so that works against them, they wouldn't be able to cakewalk aboard and start downloading files, EF might open up on sight.


Also the surprise factor alone might give them a pretty good foothold ship to ship, but its just as likely Earthforce would respond quickly and definitively if the borg can't figure out how to block a Ppg. They responded pretty quickly in Endgame (b5) for example when they figured out the telepaths were on board.

Another problem is if they don't gain intel on the aliens before trying to attack/board and assimilate they may not even be able to figure them out at all. They had already downloaded the Enterprises medical database and been assimilating Federation citizens for years around the edges, so the Instant Assimilate effect we saw in FC and later voyager episodes might be a waste of time on a Mimbari, Narn or Vree. They did Picard over the old fashioned way with the scalpels and what not in BOBW.


Either I doubt they could assimilate enough of the younger races to take on the Vorlons, in order to still be around when the Shadows woke up.

Of course if they figured out the Vorlon's little time circle they mess around with it, leaving the shadows still active. I'm not sure what that would gain them exactly if anything.

[Stark]

Dude, those were ships that had been engaged for some time; none of the durability shown is representative (except the E-E which totally ignores the shot it blocks to Defiant). I'm sure Borg weapons are powerful enough to quickly destroy B5 ships, but instead of being shot once (like in BoBW) or a few dozen times, it will be shot hundreds or thousands of times by the rest of the fleet and their fighters. Ironically, within their relatively poor accuracy B5 ships seem to focus-fire anyway, so the borg could be in trouble.

[Lord Insanity]

"Q Who" part 4 of 5 on Youtube.

Watch the first minute and a half. Seriously is anyone in the B5 universe going to stop shooting and hold a damn conference after being attacked and then blowing several craters in the offending ship? Unless B5 weapons are way under ST levels a single Borg cube is going to die real quick.

[DrStrangelove]

Are you implying that phasers do not demonstrate kiloton level firepower?

No, gigatons as espoused at SFJ, although there is some evidence to support that line of reasoning

[Kamakazie Sith]

The available information tells us that a Borg cube is a lethal threat to any lone ship (except planet killers) in the B5 universe. However, this outcome isn't certain. If the Borg respond the way they did against the E-D in their first encounter; a very slow hostile action involving a tractor beam and cutting laser then it is likely the cube will be destroyed regardless of the ship it faces because that race is likely going to do what Picard should have done and continue shooting.

Since Borg adaptation is frequency based then I don't think that is an issue. If the Borg were able to adapt then I could see that being a siginficant problem, but nothing that can't be defeated by mass firepower as shown in FC. You also have the special tactics that the B5 races can employ against the cube such as opening a jump point inside the cube, so that special tactic should even out the threat of Borg adapation.

[Marcus Aurelius]

"Q Who" part 4 of 5 on Youtube.

Watch the first minute and a half. Seriously is anyone in the B5 universe going to stop shooting and hold a damn conference after being attacked and then blowing several craters in the offending ship? Unless B5 weapons are way under ST levels a single Borg cube is going to die real quick.

In B5 the encounter would go something like this:

- Captain, they have locked us in some kind of tractor beam (Comment: the Minbari have tractor beams so the tech is not unknow in B5 universe even if the younger races do not have them)
- Hail the alien ship.
- Hailing... No respense from the aliens, sir.
- Target the origin of the tractor beam and fire the main beams.
- No effect, sir. We are still locked in the tractor beam. Sir, they are firing us with a laser and carving out a section of the hull!
- The alien ship is clearly hostile. Fire with all weapons and continue firing until the enemy retreats or is destroyed.

Of course a more gun-ho captain might order undiscriminate firing immediatelly after the tractor beam is locked, so the above example is in fact a restrained version in the B5 universe. The funny thing about Picard's response is that it takes him about 25 seconds of screen time to decide what to do after the Borg start to cut the sample piece out of Enterprise. In B5 any offensive weapon fire would trigger an immediate maximum response from most if not all captains regardless of the race.

[Gramzamber]

You also have the special tactics that the B5 races can employ against the cube such as opening a jump point inside the cube, so that special tactic should even out the threat of Borg adapation.

Considering Borg full war tactics amount to bunching a fleet of cubes together and announcing "you will be assimilated" (In Voyager "Scorpion") they'd be particularily vulnerable to the Minbari pinpoint jump point tactic.

[Darth Wong]

You also have the special tactics that the B5 races can employ against the cube such as opening a jump point inside the cube, so that special tactic should even out the threat of Borg adapation.

Considering Borg full war tactics amount to bunching a fleet of cubes together and announcing "you will be assimilated" (In Voyager "Scorpion") they'd be particularily vulnerable to the Minbari pinpoint jump point tactic.

It's been a while since I watched B5, but how do we know they can do this "jump point inside the cube" thing? They never did it against the Vorlon planet-killer, IIRC.

[Anguirus]

^ I have serious doubts about that myself. They can target "an area of less than a hundred yards," but the Minbari used it to blow away a fleet of very inferior, unshielded vessels which were all packed closely together like retards. It's not a common military tactic, which indicates that it's not better than just blazing away with your main gun except for the surprise element. Also, if the Borg ship is not totally disintegrated by the tactic, you will probably lose the ship that's opening the jump point.

Now the "jump point" in the jump gate trick causes a humongous blast, but the enemy has to be near a jump gate.

[Darth Wong]

The problem with sci-fi writing is that the average writer's preferred method of elevating a hero character is to portray him as a tactical genius, and the only kind of tactical prowess they understand is the improvised tech-trick. Somebody read a book about Nazis depressing their 88mm AA guns to shoot at tanks, and thought: "Aha, that's how you portray a tactical genius in sci-fi! You make him improvise something with his technology, to use it in a way the designers did not intend!"

To be fair, it's not a bad idea when it's plausible, but when you overuse it, it just becomes tiresome. Sheridan seemed to be a good example of that.

[open_sketchbook]

It's also a lot easier to display the technical trick than it is to show somebody with a great understanding of logistics, for example. It's got immediate visual pay-off; "Oh shit, them 88s are pointing at the tank!" as compared to "Haha! Statistical survival rate increase of 8% is giving us the upper hand!"

[Gramzamber]

^ I have serious doubts about that myself. They can target "an area of less than a hundred yards," but the Minbari used it to blow away a fleet of very inferior, unshielded vessels which were all packed closely together like retards. It's not a common military tactic, which indicates that it's not better than just blazing away with your main gun except for the surprise element. Also, if the Borg ship is not totally disintegrated by the tactic, you will probably lose the ship that's opening the jump point.

Now the "jump point" in the jump gate trick causes a humongous blast, but the enemy has to be near a jump gate.

I don't think they absolutely *have* to open a jump point inside a cube, even nearby it should cause damage given how they bunch together in fleets.
Besides cubes are a rather large target compared to those Earth Alliance ships.
Also, does a B5 ship absolutely have to go through the jump point it forms? I recall some instances where a jump point was made and avoided, but I may be mistaken.

[Themightytom]

The problem with sci-fi writing is that the average writer's preferred method of elevating a hero character is to portray him as a tactical genius, and the only kind of tactical prowess they understand is the improvised tech-trick. Somebody read a book about Nazis depressing their 88mm AA guns to shoot at tanks, and thought: "Aha, that's how you portray a tactical genius in sci-fi! You make him improvise something with his technology, to use it in a way the designers did not intend!"

To be fair, it's not a bad idea when it's plausible, but when you overuse it, it just becomes tiresome. Sheridan seemed to be a good example of that.

Yeah like with nuclear warheads?? Sheridan has always been pretty adamant that a good mine is a terrible thing to waste. he seems to have a spectacular ability to predict the vector a ship will take in order to place his mines within proximity of an approaching ship as opposed to "oops they came in from a different angle, our mine is ineffective" but he also used a warhead on the already accelerating from orbit whitestar 1, and he fleet one over with a jetpack in Thirdspace. The nuclear warhead is the man's swiss army knife.

I don't think much strategy is necessary to defeat the Borg, you don't need to be skilled so much as just competent. it could sort of kind of be mumbled out of the corner of one's mouth from just beyond hearing range that Picard might have been unnecessarily cautious in his first encounter with the Borg because he mis-read Q's purpose in bringing them there. Q's first appearance was a test in which blowing up the seeming bad guy was the wrong answer, with the borg however the purpose was not to show restraint but to recognize and respond pre-emptively to a threat. Q really nailed the federation's weak point on that one. This seems to be opposite the policy off Earth Force, which opened fire at the drop of a hat, suggesting they'd probably cut the borg off much earlier in the game.

It's also a lot easier to display the technical trick than it is to show somebody with a great understanding of logistics, for example. It's got immediate visual pay-off; "Oh shit, them 88s are pointing at the tank!" as compared to "Haha! Statistical survival rate increase of 8% is giving us the upper hand!"

There are other ways of portraying characters as heroes, but Scifi is always ham handed. I don't think mike is advocating a Victory At Sea style demonstration of an ingenious logistics train so much as a little more variety in how a character is portrayed as key to the situation.

I'm thinking of Starbuck's little Viper-shell game in "Hand of God" where the audience is led to believe that a seemingly brilliant plan has failed only for it to be just another layer of an even MORE brilliant plan, which is the schtick that mike was talking about but with the added Dimension that Starbuck was trying to acclimate herself to directing a fight instead of being in the middle of it.

Or even the scene in Serenity where Mal beats the agent through sheer force of stubbornness rather than any brilliance or tactical skill, which spoke to his resolve that the truth be known rather than conttrolled.

[Darth Wong]

It would also be nice to see a middle-ranking officer respond brilliantly under pressure, because his leader was so good at selecting, training, and preparing the men under his command. This reflects well on both men, and has been cited as an important factor in many real-life battles. Tactical brilliance is usually assumed to be a commander making decisions on the spot, but it could also be the result of him having previously chosen the right men for the job, and preparing them well.

[Traveller]

There is another factor that needs to be taken account,well several actually. One of the most important ones is that the Borg, like there federation counterparts are tactically and strategically incompetent. They might have got that way assimilating the federation\klingons etc general ineptitude in the ST-verse. In any event, the borg in space are nothing to write home about(and that is where they are strongest). On the ground, borg drones are slow, clumsy, carry no ranged weapons, and there general style of "combat" both tactically and individually involves little more than shambling around injecting dimwited federation red-shirts.

There are 3 main groups in B5 a cube would come up against.

At the lowest level, are the weaker younger races, these would includes races like Narn, Brakiri, Gaim etc. A Borg cube would most likely defeat these races forces fairly easily.

Next up from them, are the Major Races, Earth Alliance, Mimbari, Centauri Republic. These races have large fleets of advanced warships of varying degrees of sophistication. But more importantly, these powers fleets are staffed and manned by experienced and competent military personel. Something a borg cube would never encounter in ST. These powers singly or in concert could muster forces sufficent to destroy a borg cube once its nature was understood with only moderate difficulty at worst. Dont forget that EA, Mimbar and the Centauri also possess telepaths that could be used against the borg in various capacities. Sheriden uses Telepaths to good effect against the Shadows, I think its reasonable to assume they would be just as effective against the borg

At the top level, are of course, the First ones. Its hard to say exactly how the Vorlons\Shadows would react to race like the borg. They may regard these borg as something the younger races can deal with on there own. Or they might perceive the borg as a low-level threat or possibly even mildly offensive to them. The Shadows for example, may not like them because the Shadows are all about strength through forced evolution. The borg are the antitheses of that ideal. The borg are an evolutionary and technological dead end, thus the Shadows may not care for them assimilating all the races they want to see fighting one another. The Vorlons conversely, want to guide and shepard the younger races, their ultimate goal(and the shadows for that matter), is to see that races that can make the cut to speak, eventually achieve First One status. Having these borg running around trying to assimilate everything in sight, does not advance this goal in any way. In any event, the Borg have nothing on the First Ones, they are millions of years old, the borg would present no challenge to either Shadow Battlecrabs or even standard Vorlon Cruisers. Its would not take a large force from either race to destroy a cube should they wish to.

The closest thing to the B5 verse fighting something similar to the Borg occurs in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5:_Thirdspace. A Scratch Fleet of the Younger races were able to defeat(ok barely) the Thirdspace aliens, which imo, were far more dangerous and capable than the borg could ever hope to be. Compared to the Thirdspace aliens, the borg are cardboard cutouts, a fools imitation. The simple fact that the the major races and indeed most all races, both on the ground and in space, know how to fight. Even if the borg won a battle or two, I have no doubt they would learn from there defeats and eventually prevail. In B5 you would never see something as stupid any of the younger races mustering a large(ish) fleet of non-warships carrying children with them to go into battle with a hostile alien invader

[Azron_Stoma]

This may run the risk of sounding like fanwank, if so let me know, but a Whitestar or a shuttle, packed with those 500 megaton nukes, ramming into the Cube or detonating nearby while on remote. Possibly during the fleet action to keep the cube's weapons busy so it doesn't shoot the delivery system down, should be enough to take it out right?

Simplistic I know, but do the Borg really deserve anything more complicated? Always did like "Nuke'm Johnny" . How well would Mimbari target jamming fare against Trek targeting in general, or is it one of those things that's poorly described so it's hard to say either way?

As for the sci-fi "tactics" often being little more than techno-gimmicks, the more techno-babel the more of a "genius" they were supposed to be , that's something i've been rather tired of myself, and why I really enjoy the strategy page and hope to see more updates.

[Anguirus]

^ Starfleet has started to employ kamikaze techniques against the Borg before, but they were always canceled at the last second. So it's hard to say.

However, Borg shields don't prevent enemy ships from nuzzling in close, such as in BoBW. So if that shuttle had had one of those 500mT nukes onboard, the Borg might have had a bad day. IIRC Voyager once destroyed a small Borg ship by beaming a single photon torpedo aboard.

[Azron_Stoma]

However, Borg shields don't prevent enemy ships from nuzzling in close, such as in BoBW. So if that shuttle had had one of those 500mT nukes onboard, the Borg might have had a bad day.

Yeah, that was the idea I had behind the fleet firing at the cube, to get a similar effect to the Saucer Section's "Anti-matter spread" gimmick. As well as having a good chance of taking down the cube on it's own, or at least doing some damage.