Realism meets imagination: Super Soldiers

[Simon_Jester]

40k has a nice touch in that their supersoldier units:
-Are not given enough heavy support assets to be a threat on an Imperium-wide scale. In this case, naval firepower; they're pretty limited in that respect. The normal Imperial Navy has a huge advantage over all the Space Marine forces combined when it comes to fleet strength, let alone over any individual Marine chapter's fleet.
-Are, in the long run, logistically dependent on the non-modified Imperial government. Without the consent of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the High Lords of Terra, no new Marine chapters can be formed.
-Are not given control over large forces of normal troops. This makes it harder for them to revolt successfully; a Marine squad can't fight a normal rifle division unless it has a rifle division of its own supporting it. Since the normal Imperial troops outnumber the Marines by a factor of thousands (if not millions) to one, the lack of normals to fill out their ranks makes any Marine rebellion much less effective than it could be otherwise.

Also note that these reforms were enacted specifically in response to the Horus Heresy, a time when the Imperium's supersoldiers did revolt in large numbers and caused a catastrophe for the whole state as a result. Because back then, they did have logistic independence (or more so than they do now), did have heavy support assets, and did have large forces of normal troops. And oh, how the Imperium paid for that.

[Ghost Rider]

Remember also...the Imperium's military split, hell Horus got nearly half the Mechanium to come to his side. The super soliders were merely the noted events because the greatest of them was also in charge of their entire military forces by decree of their commander in chief. So it's a rather poor example of super solider gone mad, more like a problem with their military itself.

The decrees though are what should be standard given it's establishing control over their military.

[Simon_Jester]

What went wrong in the case of the Horus Heresy was that Horus had so much personal influence and an effective combined arms force under his command: a mixed supersoldier/regular army/fleet force that could credibly threaten to take Terra, especially if enough people threw in their lot with him.

So what you say is true; this wasn't just a "supersoldiers gone mad" disaster. But that's how it began, and the fact that a supersoldier revolt evolved into a full scale civil war has a lot to do with the failure of the Imperial command structure

My point is that 40k shows us the way to keep the supersoldiers from being a threat when they revolt: keep them from controlling the means to defeat whole armies by themselves. That means denying them control over heavy support weapons and large regular armies that might become personally loyal to them.

[Ghost Rider]

So what you say is true; this wasn't just a "supersoldiers gone mad" disaster. But that's how it began, and the fact that a supersoldier revolt evolved into a full scale civil war has a lot to do with the failure of the Imperial command structure

It began because some nagging thoughts within their commander in chief made me fall under the sway of an opposing force that told him that he would be better. Him being a supersoldier or Alexander the Great has nothing to do with it. Him being in charge of the entire military does.

My point is that 40k shows us the way to keep the supersoldiers from being a threat when they revolt: keep them from controlling the means to defeat whole armies by themselves. That means denying them control over heavy support weapons and large regular armies that might become personally loyal to them.

And again, the only other time the Space Marines could do so is if they had one of their own becoming leader of that much of the military again. The Emperor himself only had the Space Marines as the tip of the spear that was his army. A larger force, yes...but Horus had the command of all of the Emperor's army. Horus was a space marine primarch. What made the Horus Hersey possible and so devastating wasn't that he was a space marine but the fact the Emperor gave him the military. If you had Macarius, Slaydo, or any other man with Horus' authority go nuts the effects would've been nearly as bad or worse in many cases.

Their fear of the Space Marines are simple. They can do massive damage before being stopped and that alone is a reason to keep some leash that they can. They have always been the fast attack force with some private navy mixed in for transportation. The focus on Horus' status as a super soldier is red herring given it wasn't him being a super soldier that was the problem, it was his command of the entire military. The Adminstratum let the fact he was a space marine cloud their minds and in fact their own history has shown the Space Marines are far from the only people to bring massive civil war.

[Simon_Jester]

It began because some nagging thoughts within their commander in chief made me fall under the sway of an opposing force that told him that he would be better. Him being a supersoldier or Alexander the Great has nothing to do with it. Him being in charge of the entire military does.

Even being in charge of a large fraction of the military would have been a major problem, especially once other Marine legions (who had their own integral regular troop and fleet support) started joining him.

I mean, you're right, but I think we're arguing past each other, with the key point being one we agree on: supersoldier rebellions aren't a threat as long as they don't control enough conventional military forces to keep you from putting them down with the conventional military.

And again, the only other time the Space Marines could do so is if they had one of their own becoming leader of that much of the military again. The Emperor himself only had the Space Marines as the tip of the spear that was his army. A larger force, yes...but Horus had the command of all of the Emperor's army. Horus was a space marine primarch. What made the Horus Hersey possible and so devastating wasn't that he was a space marine but the fact the Emperor gave him the military. If you had Macarius, Slaydo, or any other man with Horus' authority go nuts the effects would've been nearly as bad or worse in many cases.

Possibly. On the other hand, Horus's superhuman abilities extended to intellectual realms; he might well have been a better tactician than someone like Macharius too. But then, he was a primarch- a demigod, not a supersoldier. Also, by virtue of being a primarch, he had a huge advantage in winning the loyalty of the Space Marines as a whole, who were at the time a major chunk of the Imperium's fighting forces.

Their fear of the Space Marines are simple. They can do massive damage before being stopped and that alone is a reason to keep some leash that they can. They have always been the fast attack force with some private navy mixed in for transportation. The focus on Horus' status as a super soldier is red herring given it wasn't him being a super soldier that was the problem, it was his command of the entire military. The Adminstratum let the fact he was a space marine cloud their minds and in fact their own history has shown the Space Marines are far from the only people to bring massive civil war.

This is true.

Again, I think the only real relevance of the 40k example is that the Imperium has a good system in place for keeping supersoldier revolts from becoming a threat, not that the Horus Heresy occured only because Horus was superhuman, or because an ordinary human in Horus's position wouldn't have been a major threat.