SGU 119, Subversion (Spoilers)

[CaptJodan]

That kind of thinking would also justify sending naquada bombs to Chulak and every other Jaffa world during the height of the Goa'uld threat though.

Besides the fact that there were people on Earth willing to do just that (and indeed, we have a variation on this with the Tokra drug and the rogue NID team when they conducted just such a campaign), it would be an impractical tactic at that time. There were hundreds, if not more, worlds out there that the Goa'uld had control over, not to mention hundreds of ships. Had Earth made itself that much of a pain in the ass, the response would have been, in Thor's words, "Swift and decisive", and all at a time when Earth didn't have the resources to defend itself against a fleet attack.

This is a different situation. The Aschen are relatively contained to their own homeworld at least, and perhaps a few colonies here and there at most. They don't seem to be spread far and wide. No evidence that we've seen of a vast (or any) space fleet. And while the Goa'uld generally attack with yellow bolts of light to subdue a population, the Aschen use biological weapons.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Aschen maintaining their "confederation" before they found the Stargate? And even if they only maintained the confederation through the Stargate, it doesn't mean that they lack interstellar drive technology.

If they have some form of FTL travel, it doesn't mean they have hyperspace engines, or that we know how fast their engines are. Their relatively confined existence seems to suggest that, at best, they probably possess a slow version of FTL (and that's if we give them ships and FTL to begin with). Otherwise they're just idiotic, and have fast drives but decide not to venture anywhere with them.

Mmm. The producers seem to think that an Aschen fleet could show up and defeat Earth in minutes. That doesn't clash with their power level as presented in the other episodes (defeat the goa'uld - and yes, an actual war was mentioned as well as just bio-bombing) at all.

Which is all completely not canon. Congratulations, you know things that never happened and that aren't admissible (assuming, of course, that the producers actually said that they could defeat present Earth in minutes, which I haven't seen the quote for).

1 edit for misquoting stuff.

[NecronLord]

How do we know O'Neill was even being serious about the black hole?
Whatever the crimes of the Aschen regime, that'd still be tantamount to genocide against millions of innocent people. Besides, it "gets worse from there"? How do you possibly get worse than a black hole in your face?

Offhand, worse things would be replicator worlds. The planet with the alien bugs. A wormhole to a black hole can be shut down. Self replicating infestations (if they get through) not so much.

[CaptJodan]

Wait, what? They're meant to be enormously big on that, to the point that they're parodies of bureaucrats and diplomats. They would far prefer to negotiate than fight. They simply have a tendency to want to limit their subjects' population levels. Bastards, yes, but that's no reason to think they can't be negotiated with at all, so long as you're not foolish enough to subject yourself to them.

They negotiate with the sole purpose of a different form of enslavement of other worlds, weeding out the population until it dies out and they can take over. This was even stated in one of those two episodes. That's not negotiation, that's slow extermination.

The Shep solution would likely be really fucking stupid. These people aren't just a threat, they're an intelligent and proficient technical threat. Avoidance is rather better than starting a total war. Of course, they've already destroyed Aschen, so the rest of the Confederation probably wants total war when they find out where Earth is anyway.

What are you on about? We have no proof that the Aschen were destroyed, and we have far, far less evidence that this "Confederation" would give a shit. I always assumed that the Confederation was the collection of planets the Aschen were using and slowly depopulating over time. If anything, once they figured out what the Aschen did to them, they'd be thrilled that they were gone.

[NecronLord]

Which is all completely not canon. Congratulations, you know things that never happened and that aren't admissible (assuming, of course, that the producers actually said that they could defeat present Earth in minutes, which I haven't seen the quote for).

You have merely to ask.
Post quoting relevant bit.
Source.

Another bit, there. Sleeping giant. In a story involving the Ori.

As you say, not canon, but indicative of writer thinking on them, "sleeping giant" - where sending a single SG team to one of their worlds equals death for North America (at least). I like that you ignored the canonical source - the Aschen do have ships.

[NecronLord]

What are you on about? We have no proof that the Aschen were destroyed,

Indeed not. Though it would seem to be a reasonable assumption given how that episode ended.

and we have far, far less evidence that this "Confederation" would give a shit. I always assumed that the Confederation was the collection of planets the Aschen were using and slowly depopulating over time. If anything, once they figured out what the Aschen did to them, they'd be thrilled that they were gone.

An unjustifiable assumption, given that there's a permanent presence on Volia, which at the very least, would have had hundreds of Aschen on it (there are said to be hundreds of harvesters, and they are evidently manned) and in 2010, there are various Aschen depicted as living on Earth. Whyever would they not have colonies of their own people, with access to their own technology?

[CaptJodan]

As you say, not canon, but indicative of writer thinking on them, "sleeping giant" - where sending a single SG team to one of their worlds equals death for North America (at least).

Which is impossible to quantify. How 304s would deal with them pretty much requires that we know how the Aschen were able to do what they did. Earth has been without, or severely depleted with 304 coverage on several occasions, and I imagine it'd matter if one was in orbit at the time as to how much of a fight Earth could put up. I'm not suggesting that they can't slip a bio-weapon through. That's easy, and can be done in a variety of ways. But it's probably not going to eliminate Earth or prevent Earth from counter-attacking. Like I said, it's a MAD situation.

Additionally, in season 10, Earth would still have the chair. Are you now suggesting that the Aschen are actually superior to the Ancients? (or more likely, just as mind-numbingly stupid as they were in SGA's last episode)

I like that you ignored the canonical source - the Aschen do have ships.

On the contrary, I revised part of that post when yours popped but, but I didn't get it all. They have ships.

Indeed not. Though it would seem to be a reasonable assumption given how that episode ended.

One can only hope, but they'd have to be pretty stupid to use the gates Earth gave them after it was clear that Earth knew something was up.

and in 2010, there are various Aschen depicted as living on Earth. Whyever would they not have colonies of their own people, with access to their own technology?

Their power would be substantially diminished. But perhaps with those people and tech on other colonies they could rebuild in time. It just depends on how far Earth is willing to go, and how they approached it.

[NecronLord]

Additionally, in season 10, Earth would still have the chair. Are you now suggesting that the Aschen are actually superior to the Ancients? (or more likely, just as mind-numbingly stupid as they were in SGA's last episode)

If you know its actual location, it's not that great a threat. Earth seems to lack hyperspace sensors; they don't seem to keep the facility's shield (if it still operates) on either. You could potentially pop in right over it and open fire, or fire some sort of flesh-rotting gas warhead down into the outpost to kill the people there. But yeah, it would require some sillyness on Earth's part, assuming the Chair even has the range to cover the whole planet.

Their power would be substantially diminished. But perhaps with those people and tech on other colonies they could rebuild in time. It just depends on how far Earth is willing to go, and how they approached it.

Clearly, they have sold their technological knowledge to the Lucian Alliance.

[stormthebeaches]

I would like to remind people that we know the Aschen have ships with FTL capabilities and they have off world colonies. We also know that they have a powerful military (in the episode 2010 they were able to defeat the system lords). Losing their home world would hurt them, but it wouldn't destroy them. I imagine that the Aschen would spend a good deal of time rebuilding their power base after the loss of their home world and then coming after Earth in revenge.

[Siege]

You don't need a powerful military to defeat the System Lords per se. Earth whooped the asses of a whole bunch of them, and it never had a spectacular intergalactic military (a great deal of luck helped though). Considering how good the Aschen are with bioweapons and such I'd bet money that their defeat of the System Lords had more to do with that than their marching soldiers through the gates to do some hands-on work against endless legions of Jaffa.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The Aschen DID use bioweapons on the Goa'uld, because one of the side-effects was that most of the Jaffa and Tok'ra were also wiped out by the ensuing plagues.

[stormthebeaches]

You don't need a powerful military to defeat the System Lords per se. Earth whooped the asses of a whole bunch of them, and it never had a spectacular intergalactic military (a great deal of luck helped though). Considering how good the Aschen are with bioweapons and such I'd bet money that their defeat of the System Lords had more to do with that than their marching soldiers through the gates to do some hands-on work against endless legions of Jaffa.

Delivering bio-weapons through stargates would be enough to stop the system lords. Eventually they would wise up, which would force you to deliver bio-weapons via ships. Which would led to some space battles, which the Aschen must have won since they won the war against the system lords.

Really, I don't see why everyone is against the idea of the Aschen becoming villains. Them having powerful ships fits in with the advanced technology we see them possess. They have both the motive and the means to threaten Earth. Since they prefer manipulation to direct combat they would fit in perfectly with SGU.

[Temujin]

The good thing about the Aschen is that they take a long slow patient path in getting things done. This works well with bringing them back as an antagonist after all this time. Hell, an interesting twist would be them feeding Intel and tech to the Lucian Alliance as a means of wearing down the Jaffa and Earth.

Also, I'm a bit confused, did the Aschen know about the Gould or not, or could they have been just bullshitting the SGC.

I'm wondering because I get the impression that the Aschen may have developed a bit of a siege mentality in their early days of space exploration; i.e., they find that there are all these factional warlords going Jihad on each others asses and choose to hunker down and fortify their home world heavily, and extend their Confederation to nearby worlds that are within quick response from their fleet. I figure they either managed to avoid getting onto the Gould's radar, or bitch slapped them hard, leaving them not wanting Round Two. Either way they kept close to home and tried to work in a low key fashion compared to Earth's tramping around the galaxy.

[JME2]

[quote="Temujin"]The good thing about the Aschen is that they take a long slow patient path in getting things done. This works well with bringing them back as an antagonist after all this time. Hell, an interesting twist would be them feeding Intel and tech to the Lucian Alliance as a means of wearing down the Jaffa and Earth./quote]

That would be a clever way of bringing the Aschen back into the picture.

[stormthebeaches]

Also, I'm a bit confused, did the Aschen know about the Gould or not, or could they have been just bullshitting the SGC.

In the episode 2010, which takes place in an alternate reality where Earth is part of the Aschen confederation, it is mentioned that the Aschen were able to defeat the Gould in war. So yes, I imagine that they would have known about the Gould.

[Temujin]

Also, I'm a bit confused, did the Aschen know about the Gould or not, or could they have been just bullshitting the SGC.

In the episode 2010, which takes place in an alternate reality where Earth is part of the Aschen confederation, it is mentioned that the Aschen were able to defeat the Gould in war. So yes, I imagine that they would have known about the Gould.

Well I knew about that, my question is did they know about them before making contact with Earth, and if they claimed that they did not, could they have just been blowing smoke. It seems kinda unlikely that an advanced culture with hyper drive would either not have heard of the Gould, at least via proxy, and vice-a-versa with the Gould.

[Gramzamber]

It's possible the Aschen have only been able to develop a hyperdrive or other FTL that's exceptionally slow by Stargate standards, such as the Goa'uld drives Teal'c was familiar with in season 1 that could barely go beyond the speed of light.

[Temujin]

It's possible the Aschen have only been able to develop a hyperdrive or other FTL that's exceptionally slow by Stargate standards, such as the Goa'uld drives Teal'c was familiar with in season 1 that could barely go beyond the speed of light.

True, and they could also be off the beaten track in a relatively obscure backwater of the galaxy. But being the Aschen are sneaky bastards, I wouldn't put it past them to have been bullshitting the SGC.

[stormthebeaches]

The good thing about the Aschen is that they take a long slow patient path in getting things done. This works well with bringing them back as an antagonist after all this time. Hell, an interesting twist would be them feeding Intel and tech to the Lucian Alliance as a means of wearing down the Jaffa and Earth.

I like this idea. Maybe the Aschen were the ones who upgraded the Ha'tak's to the point where they could take on a 304 and win?

[Bilbo]

First we never see any indication of a major industrial base on the Aschen colony world that SG-1 visited. It is entirely possible that their homeworld held all their industry and supported a truly massive population. This is why they tried to depopulate their allies and then turn them to agriculture. They might be complete hypocrite assholes who talked of population control while demonstrating none themself.

This would suggest that while some Aschen and their large harvester ships may survive the loss of their homeworld to the Blackhole none of their industrial base would exist. So a few Aschen with hightech farm implements might be all that is left of their society.

Second, everything about the Aschen has demonstrated subversion and manipulation of lesser tech planets for their own benefit. This would mean that their weapons tech no reason to be very advanced. Instead their advances have been in areas they have focused on which is biological and genetic warfare.

[Gramzamber]

It's possible the Aschen have only been able to develop a hyperdrive or other FTL that's exceptionally slow by Stargate standards, such as the Goa'uld drives Teal'c was familiar with in season 1 that could barely go beyond the speed of light.

True, and they could also be off the beaten track in a relatively obscure backwater of the galaxy. But being the Aschen are sneaky bastards, I wouldn't put it past them to have been bullshitting the SGC.

If it was pure bullshitting then they would've been back by now.
They obviously did need the SGC's address database, you only have to see Mullum or whatever his name was' eyes light up when he recieves the computer with the supposed info.

On Aschen being destroyed, I doubt it is. The Aschen were never depicted as stupid. I'd assume that, given they know the humans were onto them, they'd at least test the addresses on some outlying planet and not from their homeworld.
It'd be interesting if the Aschen turned out to be the true power behind the Lucians, pulling the strings after Natano's pissant regime fell.

[Temujin]

If it was pure bullshitting then they would've been back by now.
They obviously did need the SGC's address database, you only have to see Mullum or whatever his name was' eyes light up when he recieves the computer with the supposed info.

On Aschen being destroyed, I doubt it is. The Aschen were never depicted as stupid. I'd assume that, given they know the humans were onto them, they'd at least test the addresses on some outlying planet and not from their homeworld.
It'd be interesting if the Aschen turned out to be the true power behind the Lucians, pulling the strings after Natano's pissant regime fell.

Remember though, they do things methodically, patiently and generally low key; which is why now would be the perfect time to bring them back. As for the database, again its been awhile, but aren't the gates a fairly new discovery for them. Getting an updated list of what addresses contained what would be valuable Intel for anyone, particularly if they just discovered the gate network, and particularly if they were trying to stay under the radar and avoid being noticed, which seems to be their MO until they are ready to act.

[Gramzamber]

Remember though, they do things methodically, patiently and generally low key; which is why now would be the perfect time to bring them back. As for the database, again its been awhile, but aren't the gates a fairly new discovery for them. Getting an updated list of what addresses contained what would be valuable Intel for anyone, particularly if they just discovered the gate network, and particularly if they were trying to stay under the radar and avoid being noticed, which seems to be their MO until they are ready to act.

I don't think the gates themselves are, they just don't know how to compensate for gate drift/are in an unusual part of the galaxy/whatever.
The problem with the slow and methodical bit is the end of their second appearance, where they go all instant kill bioweapon on us. Which again makes me wonder why they're so slow and deliberate about culling populations when they could just wipe us out in one step. Maybe it propegates out of control or something.

Still they showed a willingness to go unilateral on our asses if pushed, so if they could get out of their space I think that at that time, they would've come and bombed Earth.
Of course NOW after some years they've probably calmed down and are back to slow and methodical.

[NecronLord]

I don't think the gates themselves are, they just don't know how to compensate for gate drift/are in an unusual part of the galaxy/whatever.
The problem with the slow and methodical bit is the end of their second appearance, where they go all instant kill bioweapon on us. Which again makes me wonder why they're so slow and deliberate about culling populations when they could just wipe us out in one step. Maybe it propegates out of control or something.

They outright said they wanted Earth's character shields talent for exploration. Killing everything doesn't work so well when you can just get them on-side and diminish their population when you're done.

And a bio-weapon through the gate would allow them to march soldiers in NBC into Cheyenne Mountain and take a lot of valuable stuff. Not a stupid second-option.

[Gramzamber]

They outright said they wanted Earth's character shields talent for exploration. Killing everything doesn't work so well when you can just get them on-side and diminish their population when you're done.

See now that I thought was bullshitting, since in "2010" the stargate exploration program appears to be defunct, and their ultimate goal appears to be to turn Earth into another agricultural world (that farm world's society got the same longevity vaccine Earth did).

[NecronLord]

They outright said they wanted Earth's character shields talent for exploration. Killing everything doesn't work so well when you can just get them on-side and diminish their population when you're done.

See now that I thought was bullshitting, since in "2010" the stargate exploration program appears to be defunct, and their ultimate goal appears to be to turn Earth into another agricultural world (that farm world's society got the same longevity vaccine Earth did).

I imagine that by this stage they've moved onto more generalised research based on an offworld base. Remember, the SGC had clearly been operating up until some time after the Aschen took over Earth. If Tau'ri still have a place in Aschen Exploration Initiatives, they could easily do that from offworld (much more sensible too).

I imagine they would have continued explorations quite aggressively, but they'd have had all sorts of other resources available than the canonical Tau'ri. Of course, an Aschen Atlantis was one of the ones I really think should have been in Daedalus Variations, along with an un-fallen Lantean one and an Anubis one commanded by Her'ak.