Why weren't the Primarchs destroyed? (WH40K)

[Darksider]

Vulkan was noted in Index Astartes 4 as surviving the Dropsite massacre IIRC, but HH collected visions mentions that his body was never recovered from the Dropsite massacre (at least not from Terra) and that he hadn't been heard from afterwords. I'm also pretty certain there is hints he (supposedly) set up that whole "Treasure Hunt" scheme his Chapter is supposed ot undertake to prove worthy of his leadership, too.

Are you talking about the shit that's going down in the "Tome of Fire" trilogy? What are the chances that GW will actually bring a primarch back into the modern fluff? The Ultramarines books actually seem to be advancing the fluff somewhat, what with the latest having Spoiler

At least Two worlds of Ultramar getting pillaged and burned by Honsu's new Daemon-pal, and Marneus Calgar is stranded with minimal hope of rescue, at least as far into the book that i've read.

[Bedlam]

Fulgrim may have a higher death toll of Primarchs because he and his legion were most active post Heresy. Assuming the lost and the damned is still cannon his legion dont do much fighting on Earth instead spending their time 'amusing' themselves with the native population.

Post Heresy most of the legions lie low in the Eye where as the Emperors children spend alot of their time raiding the Imperium for slaves so there was more time to come into contact with the loyalist Primarchs.

At the same time the Black legion were getting picked on by the rest of the traitor legions and switching from chaos god to chaos god and the World Eaters were falling apart into blood thirsty war bands. Since then most of the Demon Primarchs seem to have been happy enough to run their own worlds.

I do wonder if the Demon Primarchs are as powerful as they were during the Heresy and if there is a difference between the strength of a possessed Primarch and a demon prince primarch. In life the Primarchs seemed to be on the upper level or above greater demons, Sanguinious killed a greater demon even after taking significant injuries and being exhausted since becoming demon princes do they have the same bodies? Or do they keep the same physical form until they are killed and reform as demons when they have new physical forms? If there is a difference do we have evidence that all of the Primarchs have died and switched to demon bodies? The only case I can think of is Angron who got killed / banished during the first armagedon war.

[Connor MacLeod]

Fulgrim was possessed even BEFORE the Heresy, and wielding IIRC a daemon sword. That no doubt had a small hand in his abilities (nevermind how fucked up the novel itself was.)

[2000AD]

XX = Alpharius/Omegon =Traitor =One may be dead, slain by Roboute Guilliman. (It is not known which of the twins was killed. The reliability of this information is disputed, therefore it is possible that both Alpharius and Omegon are still alive.)

The Index Astartes article on the Alpha Legion (written before the HH book revealing the twin thing) had Gulliman confirmed as killing Alpharius after he called out Gulliman and the Ultramarines like Pertuabo did to Dorn at the Iron Cage, so one of the twins is definately dead.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, but which twin?

Regarding the OP, Chaos saw a way to get billions of followers, and took it.

[Pantastic]

I do wonder if the Demon Primarchs are as powerful as they were during the Heresy and if there is a difference between the strength of a possessed Primarch and a demon prince primarch. In life the Primarchs seemed to be on the upper level or above greater demons, Sanguinious killed a greater demon even after taking significant injuries and being exhausted since becoming demon princes do they have the same bodies? Or do they keep the same physical form until they are killed and reform as demons when they have new physical forms?

In the old Lost and the Damned book, if you please your patron demon enough "The Patron rewards his Champion with immortality. The Champion leaves the mortal world and becomes a Daemon Prince". This implies that becoming a Demon prince pulls your body and soul into the warp, and from then on you can only manifest in the real world like other demons. I think the original Primarchs were strong fighting Demons in the real world because they were physical creatures with strong warp abilities fighting Daemons who have to spend effort to even exist in the real world. Once they become a Demon Prince, they get more power in the warp but have to spend the same kind of effort to affect the real world as any other Demon. This isn't strictly confirmed anywhere, though.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, that seems to fit what I know about Chaos. Becoming a Daemon Prince is basically the fountain of Youth. Shame about how you have to basically sell your soul, along with your morals to get it.

[Pantastic]

A piece I read on Jughati Khan says he is lost somewhere in the webway chasing down Dark Eldar. I'm a little confused as to why the fates of certain Primarchs is so sketchy especially after the Horus Heresy. With the Emperor gone at the end of the Heresy wouldn't the Primarchs be the natural heirs to the throne? Why would you let them still go off into battle or frankly why didn't one of them (most likley Guilliman) just ascend to stewardship of the Empire?

By the time of the Heresy, the Emperor had created the Council of Terra and left them in charge of running the Imperium while he worked on his secret webway project. When the Emperor was first interred in the Golden Throne, he was still giving commands and otherwise being head honcho for a while. All of the Primarchs were made to be military leaders, their whole self-image was tied up into leading conquering legions, not staying back on earth and administering tax policies. After Horus's betrayal, no one else would want to put one person other than the Emperor in charge of everything, so the Council would be opposed to a Primarch taking over.

No one wanted them in charge, they didn't want to be in charge, and there wasn't a need for one of them to be in charge.

[Night_stalker]

After the HH, there was no freakin' way that any Chapter, or Primarch for that matter would ever be allowed to get that much power again.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually it is noted that Guilliman did become Horus' heir as the supreme military leader. The one reason supposes that he never got much further is that history is rather sparse on when he confronted Alpha Legion and when he confronted Fulgrim.

It should be noted more then a few men have reached the vaunted Lord Solar and had said title as an application to command the entire military.

[Cykeisme]

I believe Guilliman was in fact a member of the Council of the High Lords of Terra.. the only Primarch on the council, if I'm not mistaken.

Sanguinious killed a greater demon even after taking significant injuries and being exhausted since becoming demon princes do they have the same bodies?

Just nitpicking here, but it's worth pointing out that Sanguinus knocked off the Lord of Bloodthirsters Ka'Bandha, at the gates to the Imperial Palace :p
I guess Pantastic pretty much answered the question regarding the nature of ascension of a mortal to a Daemon Prince.. the person basically becomes a daemon subject to all the same limitations.
Someone on SDnet once pointed out that it's ironic that a Chaos devotee spends their life in the real universe pandering to their patron god, with the ambition of becoming a Daemon, finally achieves it, and then spends the rest of their millenia-long existence trying to get back into the real world.

[Simon_Jester]

After the HH, there was no freakin' way that any Chapter, or Primarch for that matter would ever be allowed to get that much power again.

True. Though in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperium was so royally fucked over that they were willing to tolerate Guilliman's power for the time being.

Guilliman turned out to be sort of a Cincinnatus figure for the Imperium- he took over in a desperate crisis, figured out what they needed to do to bring things back under control, and then (more or less) voluntarily stepped down and handed political control of the state back to the High Lords.

[Bladed_Crescent]

If I recall certain fluff* correctly, there is a notable difference between a daemon and a Daemon PrinceTM. It's explained that, being a daemon prince, you get the best of both worlds: the power and immortality of daemonhood, but you're still tied to the physical world (at least more so than pure daemons). For example, if Daemon Prince Bloody McStabs wants to go wreck shit up outside the warp, he only has to jump on a ship/through a warp portal to start busting heads, but if Ancient Daemon Ballsmasher wants the same, he has to possess someone or send corporeal followers ahead to cause enough death and destruction/worship that the barrier between reality and the warp breaks down and he can manifest.

*I wish I could remember the source - I think it was a codex or one of the Indexes on daemons that White Dwarf ran.

[Commander Xillian]

Another point to add: Daemon Princes, when killed, become full-Daemons. Not sure of any citing, but from some critical thinking I've deduced that a Daemon Prince is a man who's had part of his soul touched by a Chaos God, to such the extent that he now draws power from said god. So, in essence, he's a Possessed. However, due to being Greater Daemon level power I would assume, his body is far more... Shall we say, sturdy. Plus, more reliable, as there's not someone inside your hosts head who you have to suppress.

Just my two cents on the above post...

[Night_stalker]

As I recall reading, Daemon Princes aren't really seen too much outside of the Warp, possibly due to the fact that summoning them needs a major sacrifice. Plus, they're the second most powerful daemon, with only the Gods themselves being more powerful then they are, so they really don't give 2 cents about the mortal plain anymore...

[Commander Xillian]

Except for the brief stints of, ya know, massive genocide, Xenocide, patricide, What-have-youcide...

Usually this results in two things.
1) Planet goes kablewy, Grey Knights sent in, Grimdark Grimdark STALEMATE!
2) Basilisks. Grimdark Grimdark INSTAGIB STALEMATE!

[Imperial Overlord]

Another point to add: Daemon Princes, when killed, become full-Daemons. Not sure of any citing, but from some critical thinking I've deduced that a Daemon Prince is a man who's had part of his soul touched by a Chaos God, to such the extent that he now draws power from said god. So, in essence, he's a Possessed. However, due to being Greater Daemon level power I would assume, his body is far more... Shall we say, sturdy. Plus, more reliable, as there's not someone inside your hosts head who you have to suppress.

Just my two cents on the above post...

That's incorrect. A Daemon Prince is a greater warp entity with an independent personality. They may be associated with a particular chaos power, but they aren't avatars of them in the same way Greater and Lesser Daemons are. They may become Greater Daemons and they can even be more powerful than some Greater Daemons, but their defining trait is individuality. That's why mortals who ascend become Daemon Princes but not all Daemon Princes are ascended mortals. Cherubeal from the Eisenhorn series is a Daemon Prince as is Magnus the Red as the Daemon Prince in Farseer who was the Slaanesh (I forget his name). They have no special connection to the material universe, other than some of them lived there once and as beings which may originate their own plans and don't necessarily have minions to do their bidding, have to get personally involved in the nasty flesh side business.

[Teleros]

Just a quick update on Konraz Curze's death, from the old Codex: Assassins...

One of the strangest assassinations in the Officio Assassinorum's records is that of the Space Marine Primarch Konraz Curze... A Callidus Assassin managed to locate Night Haunter [Konraz Curze] within the Eye of Terror and killed him. What makes this case so different is the belief that Night Haunter is the only Primarch definitely known to have been assassinated, and that Night Haunter's powers of foresight had forewarned him of the assassination attempt, but he took no extra precautions to defend himself, claiming that the Imperium's actions vindicated his decision to rebel against the Emperor.

[Commander Xillian]

O_O

I'm behind the times, that or I need me that Codex.. I thought Konraz and Fulgrim were golf buddies, or the like. Could've sworn they were both alive...

[skips on over to Lexiconum]

[Ghost Rider]

Fulgrim was buddy-buddy with Manus, and Horus...nothing else of note. And Fulgrim is kinda here but as the buttmonkey slave of his Daemon Prince form.

Kurze is dead as the dodo.

[Stravo]

One conspiracy type view post-Heresy is that perhaps the Primarchs were led into their ultimate fates by the powers that be on Terra. Would the Terran Overlords really want the Primarchs around after what happened with Horus? What would stop another power grab attempt even with the Codex? Hell you had some Primarchs basically telling Gulliman to go fuck himself so maybe they decide to lead the Primarchs into situations where they could get themselves killed. "Hey, Dorn, those nasty Iron Warriors set up shop on this planet and our puny shitty armies are no match for them. Can you help us?"

It would make sense when we see how quickly they all seemed to fall after the Heresy. During the Great Crusade they were virtually untouchable - I think one of the things that paniked the Luna Wolves when Horus was injured so gravely was the fact that he was injured so gravely in the first place. I don't believe Primarchs had been in any serious danger of death up until the Heresy and then right afterwards the rest just fall like that? Hmmmmm.

Additionally poor Rogal Dorn. How did he get the shaft? He was the defender of Terra and I believe he was personally placed in charge of the Emperor's defenses by the man himself. So how is it that Gulliman, the latecomer to the party, ends up a steward of the Empire and Dorn relegated to hunting down Iron Warriors? Dorn was in a sweet position to at least hold onto his power over the armed forces of the Empire. He was the one who helped storm Horus' flagship, he was the one who led the defenses of the palace, he was the one who found the Emperor. Yet where is Rogal Dorn after the Siege of Terra?

[Cykeisme]

Well Stravo, while it's true that the Primarchs were virtually invincible during the Great Crusade, then quickly began to die or go missing during and after the Heresy, that in itself does not indicate conspiracy on the part of the High Lord of Terra.

Firstly, during the Great Crusade, there were no real threats to beings of Primarch level; Chaos hadn't really started doing its stuff, and Primarchs could beat up everything they face, from alien mooks to Avatars of Khaine.
Once the heresy started, Chaos got its shit together plus Primarchs now had to face a new class of threat: other Primarchs. That's when a lot of them got their shit fucked up.


Rogal Dorn being the Emperor's personal guard and defender of Terra is actually what led to his reckless behaviour. His guilt over having failed to protect the Emperor made him go pretty much batshit, and he went all out trying to make up for it (even knowing there was no chance of ever atoning for his perceived failure).
The Second Founding creation of the Black Templars is actually related directly to this.. the Imperial Fists who could not get over their failure to defend Terra and the Emperor set out on a crusade that would not end until they had redeemed themselves. In their eyes, after ten thousand years of crusading, purging the enemies of Man, they still don't think they've done enough.

[Commander Xillian]

.. Erm, not the Emperor. It was High marshal Sigismund, appointed by Dorn to lead the more zealous.

[Jaevric]

From my understanding, Guillaman had two serious advantages over Dorn. First, he had a reputation not just as a warrior but as an administrator; he was probably a lot more willing and able to work with the Administratum than Dorn. Look at the Imperial Fists and their successor Chapters. The Imperial Fists weren't based on a planet, they were based off of an enormous spacegoing fortress. The Black Templars are a Crusader Chapter, they don't have a permanent base of operations; they rove around the galaxy looking for fights in various fleets of ships. It's also notable that the Black Templars may well be in violation of the numbers limits in the Codex Astartes, it's just hard to tell due to them being spread out rather than gathered in one place. In the Crimson Fists novel, a Fists Captain orders a high-ranking nobleman (who couldn't swim) be thrown off a frigging bridge for not bowing down to the Fists. Political acumen is not a high priority, the ability to kill lots of xenos in noisy and messy fashions is.

Conversely, it's noted in The Thousand Sons that planets conqured by the Ultramarines are well-governed, loyal worlds -- I believe described as "paradises," compared to the Space Wolves and World Eaters who just kill everyone that disagrees with them and move on. The Ultramarines don't just show up on a planet, shoot or chainsword everyone that irritates them, and leave; they rebuild a system of government and make sure it's working before they move on. Now, the Ultramarines are basically in charge of a number of planets; sure, they have normal humans handling the day-to-day routines, but the Ultramarines are the rulers of their domain. Hell, in the Ultramarines novels, it's mentioned several times that Ultramarines training and selection is organized into barracks and the selection process starts a lot earlier than in most Chapters, who tend to do their recruiting based on picking the most murderous bastards they can find that are still young enough to accept the geneseed.

Second, the Ultramarines came out of the Horus Heresy in (relatively) good shape, in large part because there were so frigging many of them to begin with, while the Imperial Fists took a serious beating defending Terra.

Did Dorn even *want* to be involved in the administration of the Imperium? His main disagreement with Guillaman, as far as I'm aware, was that he didn't want the Imperial Fists broken up into Chapters. I didn't ever think Dorn was interested in leadership outside of commanding his Legion. Why would Dorn risk another war on Terra for a position he didn't even want?

[Connor MacLeod]

Guilliman's legion basically was not the only one mostly intact (relatively speaking) but his Legion was also by and far the largest assembled. Corax, Jaghatai Khan, and Rogal Dorn were alive, but I doubt they were anywhere near as intact as the Ultramarines were. The Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Blood Angels not only lost their Primarchs, but quite liekly were also severely depleted. The Dark Angels had fucked off to God knows where on their own agenda but were already riven by dissention AND the loss of their Primarch. There's the Space wolves of course (intact primarch and relatively intact Legion) but I think they were far far smaller than the Ultramarines.

Once you factor in Guilliman's reputation and qualities (quite liekyl coupled with the view towards Astartes in generla post Heresy - I can't imagine that the "normal" humans of the Imperium especially cared for them at that time) - It is probably small wonder Guilliman took charge.