Gundams vs. the Empire

[Redleader34]

Unless Gundams can traverse the length of the galaxy in a few DAYS, this isn't going to be anything more than a simple mop up job on the part of the Empire. It will just come down to hit and runs and destroying bases, supplies, whatever... before any Gundams can even respond.

Also from what I know, the Gundam-verse is fairly small in scale as compared to the Empire, which is a galaxy spanning industrial machine with effectively limitless resources. Does Gundam bring anywhere near that type of industrial capacity to the table?

The Empire has planetary shields, which as far as we know, can stop pretty much anything besides a Death Star, so wiping Hawaii out and trying to shoot radiation at a planet seems like a trifling affair do defend against. Assuming that Gundams can even get to the Empire's planets.

Firing at multiple targets at once is childs play, as that is something we can do today. It is nothing to even note.

As for reflecting turbo lasers... I will leave the numbers to others, but that isn't going to do anything against the sheer power that the TLs bring to the table.
A tank can deflect a single rock thrown at it. A tank can not deflect a 10,000lb rock dropped on it. That is what we are talking here.

Also, if you are going to start this type of debate here... you better bring some hard numbers and evidence to the table... Saying 'X can blow up Y' means absolutely fuckall without the numbers to back it up.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/turn-a/system-a-99.htm
This is mahq a fairly decent fansite with basic abilities and skillsets shown in series.



The ONLY gundam, and this is annoying to use, besides "lol G Gundam" and G Gundam is a series which is based on MARTIAL ARTS KUNG FU FIGHTING... In SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEEEEEEEE

Which could be a threat is Turn A Gundam, and the info on its full power is based on a half translated Japanese master-grade guide which I should bother to get translated by a professional

It is pretty much what would happen if the Culture decided to say "I want a Gundam!"

FUN FACTS ABOUT TURN A / TURN X
-Standard ammunition cannot damage its armour
-Beam weapons are deflected by its I-field
-The Turn A can teleport itself
-Can teleport/ warp it's attacks (it could teleport a beam shot to appear right in an enemy suit's cockpit
-Beam rifle at maximum power is stronger than a Grypps level colony laser
-The Turn A can regenerate pretty much everything.
-The Moonlight Butterfly that destroyed Earth's civilization was at 20% power. At 100% output, it can cover everything from Earth to Jupiter in nanomachines.
-Turn A's chest's multipurpose silo can summon weapons from special "transmission" devices on the Earth set up to send ammunition to the Turn A's silos.
-The teleportation system makes it possible for, as long as there are nanomachines left on either the Turn A or at the special sites, to regenerate everything on the Turn A completely, including the pilot. The teleportation system saves the status of the machine as well as the status/ memories/ DNA information of the pilot, and then transmits it to the relay sites on Earth. As long as there are nanomachines, they can receive regeneration commands, it can be done. Complete regeneration from scratch, however, can take thousands of years
- The Turns were actually meant for Newtypes to pilot, what since they were developed by Newtypes; they have powerful psycommnu systems, allowing them to detect even on their own (ie, without a Newtype) the human life signs in other mobile suits.
-The Turn A's hands are so sensitive they can be used to pick up a regular human-sized bucket of water.
-The Keilas Guilie "Big Cannon" from Victory Gundam, can't even scratch the Turn A, and the Turn X Top can take control of it remotely.
-Turn A's power source are two black hole Degeneracy engines.
-The I-field beam drive system creates a film of particles over the surface of the machine and moves the mechanical parts inside, preventing a need for heavy gears inside. The I-field beam drive is also what is used for propulsion, preventing the need for thrust material.
- The Turn X was actually created outside the solar system and was sent to the moon.
- As seen in the anime, the Turn X is actually capable of draining the energy from basically anything, including the life force of pilots.
- Both Turns have powerful combat systems allowing them to basically enter combat regardless of the pilot's condition

Some of these abilities were seen in series, but most of its bases were dust, due to the sheer age of the bases themselves.

This is pretty much "Culture: the Gundam" but in series it is used for mostly boring things, like moving cows and defending the city. It is funny in that it is the "ULTIMATE MACHINE"
yet it rarely shows off its power.

The next closest I'd say are the G Gundam machines, but they are KUNG FU ACTION MACHINES, POWERED BY MARTIAL ARTS AND NANOMACHINES.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/g/gf13-017nj2.htm

The hard thing is with no solid numbers on the machine besides "lol action points", you have to look at what it can do in series to even get an idea of its skill. It can go to space on its own power at the least, apparently produce a sort of illusionary copy of itself, and like MANY SHONEN ACTION ANIME characters, produce a limited form of invulnerability by glowing gold.

Devil Gundam will be .. something else to think about, because it is a gigantic monster in a robot shell more or less.

[SAMAS]

Strategically, no. It's still just one unit. One unit that has the ability to destroy SDs, a navy which is fielded against opponents that it expects ought to be able to destroy SDs.

Well, you'd have to find a single Mobile Suit-sized target whose most dangerous weapon has an area of effect measured in Astronomical Units.

Turn A doesn't have the ability to destroy Star Destroyers, it can destroy an entire interplanetary civilization in one go.

But yeah, between that and Turn X, their best bet is still primarily getting the Empire to decide that a continued campaign just isn't worth the expense (and the capabilities of the Turns alone will probably keep that from happening for a while). They could fight off just about any fleet the Empire cares to send, and probably strike a few targets on their own (I feel sorry for any planet the Devil Gundam gets dropped into) and maybe force a cease-fire, but they would not be conquering the Empire (or rather, taking the entire Galaxy) without some serious planning and luck.

Seriously, this is a fairly badly done Vs. anyway.

[hunter5]

Meh even as a Gundam fan this is a curb stomp in favor of the empire. The mecha would have greatly varying levels of effectiveness on the Empire's ships given on sheer amount of Deus ex machina the individual unit possesses. On the battle ship side the most powerful ship based weapon is the main cannon on the Libra which given it can one shot a small island gives it relatively comparable power to turbolasers (impossible to determine exactly because we don't know the islands exact size), but is useless as you only get one shot before you have to fix the dam thing. The standard combat ships will be vastly ineffective as most do not have shields and even the ones that do could take at most one shot before losing shields. Nor do the ships really have the fire power to do much damage to any of the heavy capital ships.

Add into the fact of numbers then the Gundams have no chance even if we used all of the Gundam universes they would still be outnumbered on several orders of magnitude.

[Wyrm]

Well, you'd have to find a single Mobile Suit-sized target whose most dangerous weapon has an area of effect measured in Astronomical Units.

Quite useless in defending planets from an orbiting Imperial fleet.

Turn A doesn't have the ability to destroy Star Destroyers, it can destroy an entire interplanetary civilization in one go.

Too bad the Empire is interstellar, innit?

[VF5SS]

According to the Counterattack of Gigantis, the Legendary God Giant Ideon is part of the Gundam universe. So now they have planet slicing beam sabers and the black hole cannon.

[Vendetta]

According to the Counterattack of Gigantis, the Legendary God Giant Ideon is part of the Gundam universe. So now they have planet slicing beam sabers and the black hole cannon.

Which at least means that they can blow up the universe (again) when they lose. Which they will, for reasons of Tomino and Grimdark.

[Manthor]

Hmm.No chance.Higher technological and scientific base, with the Galactic Empire being a civilisation approaching Kardashev Type II and capable of constructing megascale structures such as the Death Star with effort. They have multiple star systems and superior FTL and transport capability.

Gundam is limited to a single star system and little to no FTL capability and more along the lines of a Kardashev Type 1 civ.Sorry mate but the stomp is happening in the favour of the Empire.

[SAMAS]

Well, you'd have to find a single Mobile Suit-sized target whose most dangerous weapon has an area of effect measured in Astronomical Units.

Quite useless in defending planets from an orbiting Imperial fleet.

Sure, if that was the only range it could be used in. Or if that was the only attack it had.

Turn A doesn't have the ability to destroy Star Destroyers, it can destroy an entire interplanetary civilization in one go.

Too bad the Empire is interstellar, innit?

Did you read the rest of my post, or were you just looking for nitpicks? I already pointed out that the best they could do would be decapitation strikes at important worlds (and that's only after getting a few hyperdrive samples).

[Corpsman]

Such as...? I think repulsorlifts > legs in ANY situation.

Somebody had better tell that to the writers of The Empire Strikes Back!
Christ, this thread just brings out the stupid.

Just because it's in Star Wars doesn't mean it's better. Repulsorlifts dont have to deal with rough terrain, or lack of terrain for that matter. They undoubtedly have much faster top speed and acceleration. IIRC, the Empire put legs on AT-AT's for psycological warfare purposes.

[SAMAS]

Also, legs can go through forcefields (like the one at Hoth, imagine that!).

Wheels probably could too, though.

[Batman]

Or tracks, for that matter. Besides, since repulsorlift seems to work fine once you ARE under the shield (unless you seriously want to argue the snowspeeders flew via aerodynamic lift) there's nothing preventing you from putting your repulsorlift units on tractor trailers for the way in, an then use THOSE.
On the other hands, when a legged/tracked/wheeled vehicle loses power, it...stops (and in case of an AT-AT or AT-ST probably falls over but that's not an inherent problem with legs so much as the design of those two). A repulsorlift vehicle...is in a bit of trouble. Potentially LOTS of trouble.
While that still wouldn't explain WALKERS it might be the reason (or one of the reasons) they don't completely rely on repulsorlift for 'ground' vehicles.

[Admiral Valdemar]

At least if they used helos they could auto-rotate in the event of an engine failure. Repulsorlifts mean becoming a lawn dart should you be more than a few dozen metres above ground. I'd hate to have to deal with a starliner escaping to orbit that suddenly finds itself without repulsorlift capability.

[Wyrm]

Well, you'd have to find a single Mobile Suit-sized target whose most dangerous weapon has an area of effect measured in Astronomical Units.

Quite useless in defending planets from an orbiting Imperial fleet.

Sure, if that was the only range it could be used in. Or if that was the only attack it had.

Turn A doesn't have the ability to destroy Star Destroyers, it can destroy an entire interplanetary civilization in one go.

Too bad the Empire is interstellar, innit?

Did you read the rest of my post, or were you just looking for nitpicks? I already pointed out that the best they could do would be decapitation strikes at important worlds (and that's only after getting a few hyperdrive samples).

Which should be enough, don't you think? If you only have a handful of star systems to sashay around in, then if you piss off the Empire enough, they'll just hyperdrive in over each planet and shoot it once. It will be plenty to fuck over that planet's ecosystem and send them back to the dark ages.

The Empire is vast enough to send a Star Destroyer to every planet and colony and waste them, simultaneously. A single unit is NOT going to cut it. And the character of the Empire is such that they are not going to let a handful of star systems show them up.

[SAMAS]

Or tracks, for that matter. Besides, since repulsorlift seems to work fine once you ARE under the shield (unless you seriously want to argue the snowspeeders flew via aerodynamic lift) there's nothing preventing you from putting your repulsorlift units on tractor trailers for the way in, an then use THOSE.
On the other hands, when a legged/tracked/wheeled vehicle loses power, it...stops (and in case of an AT-AT or AT-ST probably falls over but that's not an inherent problem with legs so much as the design of those two). A repulsorlift vehicle...is in a bit of trouble. Potentially LOTS of trouble.
While that still wouldn't explain WALKERS it might be the reason (or one of the reasons) they don't completely rely on repulsorlift for 'ground' vehicles.

I think in this case, it's because the technology of the SW Galaxy is so old they've pretty much gotten to the point where the actual configuration of the design is almost academic. Just do whatever the hell you want.

Did you read the rest of my post, or were you just looking for nitpicks? I already pointed out that the best they could do would be decapitation strikes at important worlds (and that's only after getting a few hyperdrive samples).

Which should be enough, don't you think? If you only have a handful of star systems to sashay around in, then if you piss off the Empire enough, they'll just hyperdrive in over each planet and shoot it once. It will be plenty to fuck over that planet's ecosystem and send them back to the dark ages.

The Empire is vast enough to send a Star Destroyer to every planet and colony and waste them, simultaneously. A single unit is NOT going to cut it. And the character of the Empire is such that they are not going to let a handful of star systems show them up.

Right, and whoever is in charge after the power vacuum left after the same is done to Coruscant is filled in can declare victory. That's what I meant by "making straight conquest too costly."

Plus, Gundam is no stranger to catastrophic destruction reducing civilization way back to pre-industrial and then some. According to Turn A, it's happened at least five times already.

[Wyrm]

Right, and whoever is in charge after the power vacuum left after the same is done to Coruscant is filled in can declare victory. That's what I meant by "making straight conquest too costly."

And your proof that the Turn A has the range to reach into the core of its own galaxy, let alone another, or that a non-Imperial even knows the location of Coruscant is...

Plus, Gundam is no stranger to catastrophic destruction reducing civilization way back to pre-industrial and then some. According to Turn A, it's happened at least five times already.

But has it actually destroyed a planet uttery, like the Death Star, or fuck it up so completely as to make it absolutely sterile and uninhabitable forever, like a Star Destoryer with a BDZ? And remeber that the core worlds can hold off a fleet of the latter behind their planetary shields indefinitely.

Destroying civilizations takes comparably little energy, especially if you have limited to no FTL. Also, not all civs have the same endurance; being able to erect kilometer-high buildings has to count for something in the way of material toughness.

[SAMAS]

Right, and whoever is in charge after the power vacuum left after the same is done to Coruscant is filled in can declare victory. That's what I meant by "making straight conquest too costly."

And your proof that the Turn A has the range to reach into the core of its own galaxy, let alone another is, or that a non-Imperial even knows the location of Coruscant is...

Which I went over back in my first post, too.

Plus, Gundam is no stranger to catastrophic destruction reducing civilization way back to pre-industrial and then some. According to Turn A, it's happened at least five times already.

But has it actually destroyed a planet uttery, like the Death Star, or fuck it up so completely as to make it absolutely sterile and uninhabitable forever, like a Star Destoryer with a BDZ? And remeber that the core worlds can hold off a fleet of the latter behind their planetary shields.

And I suppose if I say yes, you'll bring out the Death Star?

Destroying civilizations takes comparably little energy, especially if you have limited to no FTL. Also, not all civs have the same endurance; being able to erect kilometer-high buildings has to count for something in the way of material toughness.

It's a ginormous swarm of nanomachines, I don't think toughness is going to help much.

[Norade]

Which I went over back in my first post, too.

Yes, by (handwave) they'll steal a hyperspace capable ship and (handwave) pilot it to Coruscant. Prove they cn even fly the damn thing that has controls and all labels written in a language they can't read.

Plus, Gundam is no stranger to catastrophic destruction reducing civilization way back to pre-industrial and then some. According to Turn A, it's happened at least five times already.

But has it actually destroyed a planet uttery, like the Death Star, or fuck it up so completely as to make it absolutely sterile and uninhabitable forever, like a Star Destoryer with a BDZ? And remeber that the core worlds can hold off a fleet of the latter behind their planetary shields.

And I suppose if I say yes, you'll bring out the Death Star? [/quote]

Can your Gundam defeat a planetary shield? How much energy does it take to destroy a civilization? Please define these things.

Destroying civilizations takes comparably little energy, especially if you have limited to no FTL. Also, not all civs have the same endurance; being able to erect kilometer-high buildings has to count for something in the way of material toughness.

It's a ginormous swarm of nanomachines, I don't think toughness is going to help much.

Oh goody, no limits nano-wank! Prove they can dismantle durasteel if they, somehow, manage to get past the planetary shield.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I just think the black/white difference between the character mechs and "lol redshirt mechs" is pretty funny. Every time mecha series like Gundam are discussed someone points out how the Gundams are basically super weapons and the thugs all get complete shit. It just feels so counter-dramatic. I get the impression Japanese media is still going through its "80s action movies" stage.

That only really applies to the likes of Gundam Wing. In MSG the 120mm Machinegun of Zeon's early MS (MS-05B Zakus and MS-06C, F, J, and S type Zaku IIs) was incapable of penetrating the Earth Federation's V-Project MS (RX-75 Guntank, RX-77 Guncannon, and RX-78 Gundam, their 280mm bazookas were more than capable of killing them if they hit. However, the ability to shrug off the 120mm fire of the early Zeon MS 'smallarms' was due to their luna titanium/Gundarium Alpha, which was incompatable with mass production (at least until the Gryps War in UC 0087, MSG taking place in UC 0079, with the RMS-07 Marasai) and the mainstay of the Federation Forces, the RGM-79, used titanium in it's construction.

Later as the One Year War went on Zeon would relegate the MS-06 series to the rear lines as they were replaced first on the ground with newer MS-07 Goufs and later MS-09 Doms, then in space by the MS-09R Rick Doms and the few MS-14A Gelgoogs the Duchy of Zeon could get off the production lines and into the field before the war ended. Even then new weapons to penetrate the gundarium armor were implemented including a newer high-velocity 90mm machinegun.

Throughout Zeta, Double Zeta, Char's Counterattack, F91, and Victory the token enemy MS have beam weapons and armor comparable to the protagonists suit, with the protagonist barely scraping by on unrealized newtype potential.

Most of Domon's enemies in G Gundam are rival Gundam Fighters tainted by Devil Gundam Cells. SEED is a blatant rip of the OYW and not in a good way. Gundam Wing and SEED Destiny are the only ones that really have enemies that can be said to be not a threat, especially Wing where Leos will explode by being punched in the main camera or for no reason at all. (Thus the term 'Sympathetic Exploder')

[Wyrm]

Plus, Gundam is no stranger to catastrophic destruction reducing civilization way back to pre-industrial and then some. According to Turn A, it's happened at least five times already.

But has it actually destroyed a planet uttery, like the Death Star, or fuck it up so completely as to make it absolutely sterile and uninhabitable forever, like a Star Destoryer with a BDZ? And remeber that the core worlds can hold off a fleet of the latter behind their planetary shields.

And I suppose if I say yes, you'll bring out the Death Star?

You cited as your strongest evidence of the Turn A's firepower the fact that it has reduced civilizations back to the stone age. That's billions of times easier than glassifying a planet's surface. Where are the planets the Turn A turned to molten glass?

[SAMAS]

Which I went over back in my first post, too.

Yes, by (handwave) they'll steal a hyperspace capable ship and (handwave) pilot it to Coruscant. Prove they cn even fly the damn thing that has controls and all labels written in a language they can't read.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "Fry their minds with Angel Halo" or "Have Turn A/X teleport a beam rifle shot into the bridge", but I suppose a handwave works.

Destroying civilizations takes comparably little energy, especially if you have limited to no FTL. Also, not all civs have the same endurance; being able to erect kilometer-high buildings has to count for something in the way of material toughness.

It's a ginormous swarm of nanomachines, I don't think toughness is going to help much.

Oh goody, no limits nano-wank! Prove they can dismantle durasteel if they, somehow, manage to get past the planetary shield.

Don't have to. Not everything in the Star Wars Universe is made out of it. This includes very important components. How long do you think a city will last, for example, if all the wiring is turned to dust? Computers, blasters, support columns and foundations. You get the idea.

[Admiral Valdemar]

How exactly is durasteel supposed to be unique at nanoscales? The strongest possible elemental constructs imaginable can be deconstructed with ease using atomic force equipment, yet somehow durasteel is exempt just because? Nanowank is one thing, like turning a city into dust from a thimble of nanomachines within a few minutes or something, but assuming someone has to prove a metal alloy is somehow impervious to basic chemistry is just laughable. The onus should be to prove why durasteel can't be disassembled at the atomic scale. Since it can be forged in the first place, this is clearly not so.

Wait, how is this thread still going?

[Havok]

I have a question. How can Gundam even compete in this scenario when they can't even leave their own solar system?

[Ghost Rider]

I have a question. How can Gundam even compete in this scenario when they can't even leave their own solar system?

Because they are using the most wanked out Gundam in existence. While the show it came from was enjoyable(to some...mileage will vary), basically the main protagonist and antagonist's Gundams might as well been called Deus Ex Machina MK I-II when they reveal them at the end.

And thus we get to this because SAMAS has to live and spank to his title.

[Wyrm]

Which I went over back in my first post, too.

Yes, by (handwave) they'll steal a hyperspace capable ship and (handwave) pilot it to Coruscant. Prove they cn even fly the damn thing that has controls and all labels written in a language they can't read.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "Fry their minds with Angel Halo" or "Have Turn A/X teleport a beam rifle shot into the bridge", but I suppose a handwave works.

Actually, handwaving is an indication that it doesn't work except by author's fiat. Why is an Angel Halo able to penetrate the SD's shields to fry their minds? Why is the Turn A/X able to teleport anything through that same shield, a shield that is able to withstand punishment that would reduce a whole world to molten glass? Why can either cut through the intense ECM that will no doubt bathe the area that will allow either, assuming either aren't rendered completely inoperable by it?

Leaving that aside, let's say you do manage to get inside. There's the hyperdrive control. Now, how do you work it? You can't read their language, and you don't even understand their theory of operation even if you could. How do you manage to even turn the damn thing on without destroying itself, given that it'll probably be designed to fail rather than initiate catestrophically. Do you even know how to work the nav computer to get a valid course? Do you even know about Coruscant in the first place and that you need to target that world in particular to create this power vacuum, rather than going to Bumfuck III?

It would take a miracle, or author's fiat, to accomplish this. It's not a viable strategy.

And I'm still waiting for a list of planets that Turn A has glassified — that is, to show that Turn A is even on par with a single Star Destroyer.

[Norade]

How exactly is durasteel supposed to be unique at nanoscales? The strongest possible elemental constructs imaginable can be deconstructed with ease using atomic force equipment, yet somehow durasteel is exempt just because? Nanowank is one thing, like turning a city into dust from a thimble of nanomachines within a few minutes or something, but assuming someone has to prove a metal alloy is somehow impervious to basic chemistry is just laughable. The onus should be to prove why durasteel can't be disassembled at the atomic scale. Since it can be forged in the first place, this is clearly not so.

Wait, how is this thread still going?

The issue is creating nano-machines that can actually apply that atomic force to anything. They are also going to be incredibly sensitive to changes in temperature so even the engine wash from a passing space taxi should cook a bunch of them and make them worthless.