Battle of Geonosis vs Modern Day Hell

[Shroom Man 777]

They already have aircraft and artillery blasting each other apart. And it's NOT insanely fast advancement. Man, their advancement was just to the speed of running clonetroopers. I guess compared to slow-ass stupid gundamechanimu-walkers, clonetroopers running on foot would be lightning fast because those gundamechanimu-walkers are stupid slow-asses, but even compared to a fucking old woman on a moped they're all slow as shit. Insanely fast? It's insanely slow. The only thing even insanely slower would be the molasses-paced advance of the FAT-FATs at Hoth. Even a Gundamechanimumango from those Japanese animus could move faster. By backflipping.

[D.Turtle]

In the face of enemy opposition on the scale seen? That was insanely fast advancement.

Let me put it this way: In one training exercise, there was suspected enemy infantry in a position a few hundred meters ahead of us. This required us to hold our position, let the infantry dismount, advance to that point and clear it before we could advance further. This took at least half an hour.

The entire battle on Geonosis took that long. That is insanely fast.

What you are missing, is that its a very different thing simply moving somewhere without opposition, and advancing in the face of enemy opposition (especially on the scale seen on Geonosis).

And again, I would expect, that once the droid army is largely destroyed, the armored support would surge ahead.

[NecronLord]

NecronLord, I get that there are not enough walkers to transport all the troops, okay? I'm just saying that when confronted by an enemy combined arms attack, it's kind of stupid for the infantry to stand at the front (and running forwards to enemy fire!) instead of, say, taking cover or using the cover of the walker/tanks while advancing in a more measured pace.

Cover of the walkers.

And that terrain is neither very good cover or concealment. There's one low rock outcrop the clones can hide behind and that's about it. So unless you expect them to dig a trench under fire, there's no way they're going to use cover.

They bunch up like retards, but I don't find the idea of them being on foot at all stupid. Similarly, they have to advance. Their job is to capture the facilities on Geonosis, not 'dig in around their acclamators'.

So, we've established that they're on foot, they literally cannot not have about ten thousand in every sixteen thousand on foot at any given time. We've established that they must advance.

How are they going to do that without a foot advance? Remembering that most of them are on foot... and they have to advance. Perhaps the AT-TEs can lollop ahead and therefore leave the vast majority of the army without any kind of armour? Certainly. I'm not really convinced that would be any better though.

The more scifi debates I read, the more convinced I am that the entire concept is irreparably stupid.

What's your point? Are you asking if we think that Star Wars (and most Sci-fi) battles look stupid? The answer (on my part) is yes. The firepower doesn't actually matter regarding how stupid they may or may not be. It would be stupid if they had Lee Enfield rifles or if they had super-space-rifles.

If you want Sci-fi with convincing tactics, you're going to have fun looking for it in live action sources.

[NecronLord]

In the face of enemy opposition on the scale seen? That was insanely fast advancement.

Let me put it this way: In one training exercise, there was suspected enemy infantry in a position a few hundred meters ahead of us. This required us to hold our position, let the infantry dismount, advance to that point and clear it before we could advance further. This took at least half an hour.

In fairness, I imagine clone tactics, especially here, are basically heedless of clone deaths.

Of course, it's still uncommonly quick. But there's a simple and bloody explanation for why that is. (Also the droids can't shoot worth a damn)

[Shroom Man 777]

@ Necronlord:

I was expecting them to advance alongside their armor, not run ahead into a massed enemy formation and leave their tanks behind.

I would say that Geneosis wasn't fast because of the speed of the clonetrooper foot advance or the walkers. It was fast because of the airborne troops dropped by the LAAT, the LAATs themselves doing CAS, and the quick deployment of heavy combined arms from fighters and tanks to those artillery pieces that zapped the escaping CIS ships. It wasn't the stupid clonetrooper LOTR charge that won the day or did the job, but it was everything else. Like the Acclamators landing right on top of the battlefield, etc.

[D.Turtle]

Minor quibble: They actually lost the day, because the enemy leadership escaped.

In the end, the entire battle of Geonosis was a waste - they could (and should) have blasted the site from orbit, decapitating the enemy, and be done with it.

[NecronLord]

I was expecting them to advance alongside their armor,

Are you working from memory here? Because if you watch the film the clones are never more than twenty meters or so ahead of the AT-TEs. Advancing alongside their armour is precisely what most of the clones do. Watch particularly the bit before Poggle the Lesser says "We must order a retreat" where they are shown doing exactly that. For Christ's sake. The battle has enough problems without your needing to invent more.

It wasn't the stupid clonetrooper LOTR charge that won the day or did the job, but it was everything else. Like the Acclamators landing right on top of the battlefield, etc.

Will you stop saying "LotR charge" as some kind of synonym for "idiocy"? The clones' movement in no way resembles the cavalry charges in LotR except in that they're moving forwards.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, I am working from memory. I remembered seeing a whole bunch of clones. And seeing them run right into the droids. Well, I guess I must be wrong. I better shut up now.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, I am working from memory. I remembered seeing a whole bunch of clones. And seeing them run right into the droids. Well, I guess I must be wrong. I better shut up now.

You do. It's where they're in the giant dust cloud from the falling coreship. There are however, AT-TEs with them in the scene before. They don't run right into the droids though, they sorta slowly walk forward firing from the hip (This is silly in itself of course).

Are you thinking of the retard at Chistophsis who tries to punch a droid out?

[Shroom Man 777]

The one who broke his hand and got his face smashed by the Super Battle Droid?

I preferred that ARC trooper in Coruscant who CQC'ed the shit out of those SBDs, emptied his battle rifle into a whole horde of them, smashed them with his rifle butt before continuing on killing with his pistol. To be fair, I loved those badass tacticool Clonetroopers. Those episodes were my favorite in the Clone Wars cartoon. Like, Jesus, how they saved Ki-ai-mundo or whoever by riding into that crashed Acclamator in an LAAT and shooting at Grievous with a goddamn quadgun. ARC Troopers! Badass!

[Norade]

If they were trying to move quickly is there some reason that they couldn't let the mech and airforce advance while keeping the foot in the dropship, then when the armor and air support have covered enough ground you deploy the human wave? That would allow you to move faster and would keep your infantry fresh.

[JointStrikeFighter]

One imagines that the Armour forming a spearhead to smash through the enemy lines and capture the droid leadership whilst the infantry acted to pin the main body of the droid army in place would have been a sensible plan. But nah.

[Serafina]

One imagines that the Armour forming a spearhead to smash through the enemy lines and capture the droid leadership whilst the infantry acted to pin the main body of the droid army in place would have been a sensible plan. But nah.

Except that the AT-TEs look like they are quite vulnerable to enemy infantry up close. They have exposed joints, an apparently weak underside and an exposed main turret.
Add this to their relatively small numbers and you can see why they advanced with the infantry instead of tryign to break trough Geonosian lines on their own.

[Norade]

Makes you wonder why they don't just use tracks instead...

[Srelex]

For what it's worth, in the 2003 Clone Wars game, the Jedi used nimble hovertanks for support in some areas. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TX-130_S ... ghter_tank

[Darksider]

Minor quibble: They actually lost the day, because the enemy leadership escaped.

In the end, the entire battle of Geonosis was a waste - they could (and should) have blasted the site from orbit, decapitating the enemy, and be done with it.

Remember that the Jedi are coming from more of a law enforcement and peacekeeping mindset than that of true soldiers. It's entirely believable that they would want to capture the Separatist leaders and put them on trial rather than kill them. Especially since orbital bombardment would have killed numerous Geonosian civillians as well.

[Serafina]

Note that Mace Windu later laments the fact that they just did not nuke the site from orbit (in some book i think, i don't remember right now) and that it would have saved thousands of lifes if he had done that. That supports the theory that they wanted to arrest the leaders/did not know better.

[Norade]

The Jedi had orbit so they really should have been able to catch him anyway, no way that core ship should have escaped even if it was only a few Acclamators opposing it.

[Serafina]

The Jedi had orbit so they really should have been able to catch him anyway, no way that core ship should have escaped even if it was only a few Acclamators opposing it.

Uh - why not? Acclamators are transport ships, why do you think they could have effectively blockaded the planet?

[Shroom Man 777]

Because Acclamators have 200 gigaton turbolasers and other armamentations that could be used to shoot down Seperatist ships?

[Srelex]

The Jedi had orbit so they really should have been able to catch him anyway, no way that core ship should have escaped even if it was only a few Acclamators opposing it.

Actually, I think a few games and books depict that there was also a space battle, so the ships could've sneaked out while the Republic ships were occupied with that.

[D.Turtle]

If they were trying to move quickly is there some reason that they couldn't let the mech and airforce advance while keeping the foot in the dropship, then when the armor and air support have covered enough ground you deploy the human wave? That would allow you to move faster and would keep your infantry fresh.

Once again, armor advancing alone into a well equipped enemy force would be shredded. Even as it is you saw armored transports and aircraft be destroyed by missiles.

And if you look, the infantry was deployed very, very close to the enemy already - they were already taking some fire at the deployment areas.

[NecronLord]

Because Acclamators have 200 gigaton turbolasers and other armamentations that could be used to shoot down Seperatist ships?

Once it has its shields up, 200 Gt is like a spitball to a coreship.

[Norade]

If they were trying to move quickly is there some reason that they couldn't let the mech and airforce advance while keeping the foot in the dropship, then when the armor and air support have covered enough ground you deploy the human wave? That would allow you to move faster and would keep your infantry fresh.

Once again, armor advancing alone into a well equipped enemy force would be shredded. Even as it is you saw armored transports and aircraft be destroyed by missiles.

And if you look, the infantry was deployed very, very close to the enemy already - they were already taking some fire at the deployment areas.

True, and not knowing what the logistics situation was I can't even say they should have simply brought in something better to lead the spearhead with. I will say that a limited bombardment should have been used to really soften the enemy up and eliminate the problems though.

[Sea Skimmer]

I always assumed they didn’t bombard from orbit because it would not look good if the Republic opened the war with a first strike that killed hoards of Geonosians civilians who live underground all over the place. This tends to undermine political support for war efforts. Far stupider decisions have been made for less compelling reasons, like landing on Peleliu. The massive destruction of an orbital bombardment would make proving anything after the fact very hard.

Even a limited bombardment by Star Wars standards would still be nuclear war level devastation to modern earth, considering that even light turbolasers are rated in the range of 24-40 megatons IIRC. Even low kiloton weapons would easily start breaking up the ground and collapsing tunnels, and its not clear that Star Wars warships would have any weaker orbit to surface weapons to use. This is one of those problems with super high firepower... sure you can have magic steel and concrete which is equally strong to match 200 gigaton weapons, but the earth and rock stay the same strength. They may have had no choice but to use ground forces weapons for lighter firepower.

Also the battle droids may have been sheltering inside the core ships prior to the landing anyway, that's certainly the impression one gets, so softening them up might not really be possible with limited firepower. Making a landing forces the droids to deploy in the open. Doesn’t the novel describe a battle in space too? That would provide a compelling reason to land the invasion force quickly, rather then wait around to fight out the space battle and risk the loaded transports being destroyed. This may also have been the logic behind the to me far more questionable droid army invasion of Kashyyyk in episode 3.