Doctor Who S32E7, "A Good Man Goes to War" [spoilers]

[J Ryan]

I thought this might interest a few people here, someone on another site linked this
https://groups.google.com/group/rec.art ... 5e9b213df9

Looks like Moffat has been wanting to use those lines for over 15 years.

Isn't that refuted by the Master in "Sound of Drums", where he implies the Doctor (and the Master himself by extension) chose his names, based on wanting to heal people?

[NecronLord]

Aren't time lords grown rather than born? Didn't the families have looms to grow them on or something like that?

Shot out of the water in the old series as well as the new.

[NecronLord]

Isn't that refuted by the Master in "Sound of Drums", where he implies the Doctor (and the Master himself by extension) chose his names, based on wanting to heal people?

Yes.

Of course those aren't mutually exclusive.

[Zac Naloen]

Quite, the doctor chose the name the Doctor because of what it meant in gallifreyan.

On Earth it took on a similar meaning.

Doesn't mean that it will have the meaning he intended on other worlds though.

[xerex]

ah rubbish. now we'll never get rid of River.



I was quite prepared to accept Lorna Bucket as Melody Pond grown up. Obviously it was a misdirection getting someone who does resemble both Amy and the young girl cast but dammit ....

oh and the Doctor and Amy's child getting it on........


also plot hole.....the Doctor has a crib with the name River on it ? and he's never brought it up before?

[Broomstick]

>sigh<

Moffat has really got to get a better handle on the sloppy writing and implications, because I'm seeing this all over.

The crib does not say "River" on it. We don't know what it says in Gallifreyan, but I'm pretty sure that was a misdirection. What said "River" was the prayer leaf Lorna Bucket sewed for Amy. That's the whole point of the phrase "the only water in the forest is the river" dropped by Sexy Thing in "The Doctor's Wife". The Gamma Forest people don't have the word "pond", so Lorna subsituted "river". They also apparently don't have the exact word "melody", either, for which she substituted "song". With the scene between River and the Doctor it seems, initially, that he's looking at the crib but really he's looking in the crib, where the prayer leaf is resting on the blanket. Likewise, at first Amy and Rory are looking at the crib, and that's why River picks up the prayer leaf and puts it in Amy's hand - the Gallifreyan writing on the crib is a misdirection.

[TC Pilot]

I thought the episode was great... at least until the last quarter of the episode. It's really a shame they can't/won't put that kind of budget into other episodes.

My main issue is that the episode's climax was too early, just before the halfway mark. So we have about 20 minutes of winding down, with most of that time making the previous 20 minutes feel oddly irrelevant. The headless monks' ambush, despite it being a key part of the villains' "great" trap, was given all the attention and detail of an afterthought. River Song's revelation had no impact to me (certainly not the "game-changer" that was claimed when the series' scheduling was announced) except that it felt sloppy (like Moffat just threw that idea in there), and served only to undermine the sense of dread River telegraphed at the start of the episode. Why is she so terrified of the Doctor finding out who she is? How does this constitutes falling the farthest? Moreover, it utterly demolishes the impression that the villains won in the end. I realize there's probably more motive going on beneath the surface that will be explained later, perhaps akin to Davros cursing the Doctor as a genocidal mass-murderer in "Journey's End" (as if comparison to that train wreck is desirable). I guess in the end it boils down to a perception that this episode was supposed to be some great revelation, yet doing nothing of the sort.

I think that the next episode (Spoiler

"Let's Kill Hitler"

) runs the risk of being a complete catastrophe. It has the potential for being an interesting story, but I say the chances of that are far outweighed by the potential for an utter screw-up.

[Broomstick]

I think we should be cautious about reading too much into the title of the next episode. Various things in this series have implied one thing and delivered another, such "The Doctor's Wife" which many (including me) thought would concern River Song and it turns out to be the TARDIS. So the title to ep 8 may or may not have anything to do with the person named in the title. Or that could be the named person in the sense that Liz 10 is a Queen Elizabeth, and not the only one.

[lordofchange13]

"A crying Roman, with a baby, defenitly cool". I give it a 4, from all the epic senes, and a couple terrible ones.

[lordofchange13]

Is River by any chance, a future incarnation of the Doctor?
.... never mind, the site i watchedc it on cut off the last five minutes.

[PREDATOR490]

I am distinctly unhappy with this episode.

No explanation what the fucking Cybermen are floating around for when they were supposed to be wiped out. Yeah, yeah the scene is all awesome but it represents a major part of why this episode was a constant slideshow of 'awesom'e stuff happening without much explanation for WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON.

Spitfires - What the fuck, the Doctor went back in time to WW2 to get Spitfires he previously DESTROYED to prevent Churchill from using them ?
So... the Doctor REBUILT the goddamn things just for WW2 pilots to fly them then return home with them... how ?
So then he can destroy them AGAIN to prevent their use in WW2 ?

Incidentally, I get the distinct impression the next episode and the appearance of the Spitfires will be tie back to the Dalek episode. Specifically the dead end plot point of that lady that was crying about losing her partner or something. That said, I still find this an exceptionally stupid idea from the series and the Doctor. Would have been more impressive to summon up Jack Harkness or Unit as pilots rather than Spitfires from WW2.

Pirate ship - Apparantly this ship can travel through time as well and wasnt even worth the five second cameo.

River Song - I suppose its a good thing she never turned out to be his Daughter, incest would just be totally disgusting.
Instead the Doctor is implied to be banging his companions daughter he has known from birth to death. Somehow this still leaves me with a horrific disgust for the situation. Although I imagine Rory is going to be amusingly defensive around the River and the Doctor. Should be interesting to see if the Doctor tells them about River DYING to save him.

That said, I'm going to expect them to rapidly backpedal the situation between the Doctor and River as being a non-romantic relationship and just 'friends'. To which I will say.
"FUCK YOU VERY MUCH"


I have had enough of this River Song suspense bullshit. RTD may have introduced this mess but the way this has escalated is beyond belief. I suppose dropping the Daleks and all the 'old' enemies is required when the show is determined to 'renew' the series starting with slamming River Song down folks throats.

[Thanas]

No, RTD did not introduce River Song. That was all Moffat.

[DarkSilver]

I am distinctly unhappy with this episode.

No explanation what the fucking Cybermen are floating around for when they were supposed to be wiped out. Yeah, yeah the scene is all awesome but it represents a major part of why this episode was a constant slideshow of 'awesom'e stuff happening without much explanation for WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON.

Spitfires - What the fuck, the Doctor went back in time to WW2 to get Spitfires he previously DESTROYED to prevent Churchill from using them ?
So... the Doctor REBUILT the goddamn things just for WW2 pilots to fly them then return home with them... how ?
So then he can destroy them AGAIN to prevent their use in WW2 ?

Incidentally, I get the distinct impression the next episode and the appearance of the Spitfires will be tie back to the Dalek episode. Specifically the dead end plot point of that lady that was crying about losing her partner or something. That said, I still find this an exceptionally stupid idea from the series and the Doctor. Would have been more impressive to summon up Jack Harkness or Unit as pilots rather than Spitfires from WW2.

Pirate ship - Apparantly this ship can travel through time as well and wasnt even worth the five second cameo.

River Song - I suppose its a good thing she never turned out to be his Daughter, incest would just be totally disgusting.
Instead the Doctor is implied to be banging his companions daughter he has known from birth to death. Somehow this still leaves me with a horrific disgust for the situation. Although I imagine Rory is going to be amusingly defensive around the River and the Doctor. Should be interesting to see if the Doctor tells them about River DYING to save him.

That said, I'm going to expect them to rapidly backpedal the situation between the Doctor and River as being a non-romantic relationship and just 'friends'. To which I will say.
"FUCK YOU VERY MUCH"


I have had enough of this River Song suspense bullshit. RTD may have introduced this mess but the way this has escalated is beyond belief. I suppose dropping the Daleks and all the 'old' enemies is required when the show is determined to 'renew' the series starting with slamming River Song down folks throats.

I'm pretty sure the Cybermen in this episode are Mondas Cybermen...while they share the updated Cybus Cybermen....they don't have the chestplate marking - so I thought that was kinda apparent. And it's possible the Mondas Cybermen are still active in the universe, the Doctor never committed genocide against the entire species, that I'm aware of (please correct me if I'm wrong on this). For one, these are the same Cyberships we saw in "The Pandorica Opens" as apart of the Alliance Fleet.

Everyone that appeared on the Doctor's side, it is pretty safe to assume the Doctor GATHERED them up, not just the ones on the TARDIS, but the pirates and the Spitfires as well. Yeah, they were supposed to be dismantled post "Victory of the Daleks", but at the end of that episode, Danny-boy was KILLED anyway. Thus the Doctor got them from prior to Danny Boy's death.

River Song is all Moffat - she was introduced and "killed" in a Moffat penned episode. There is no indication that they'll "reverse course" and ret-conn River and the Doctor's relationship after this into them jjust being friends, it's very much been implied the entire time, if not right outstate that River is in love with the Doctor, and you can see that starting to creep through on the Doctor's end also.

In all honesty, I can get where people are coming from with the annoyance of River Song and how she seems to know so much more than the Doctor....but there's a damn good reason for that. We're seeing River *ALWAYS* from the Doctor's future. There will never be a point where she won't have knowledge of the upcoming stuff in their relationship - their meeting up in reverse order. And River doesn't seem to be one to be shy or demure about what she knows/can do. She's boisterous, and if she knows something in the future with the Doctor, she will drop hints, but won't outright tell him what will happen because she knows she can't change the timeline.

That said, I don't think she'll have the annoying "who the fuck are you" moments anymore with River, we now know who she is. So maybe River as a character can grow beyond that annoyance she seems to have built up in some of the fan base.

[NecronLord]

The Seventh (Sly McAwesome) Doctor exterminated the Mondas-Cybermen (or as good as) in Silver Nemesis, but those were from an unspecified point in the future.

I am distinctly unhappy with this episode.

No explanation what the fucking Cybermen are floating around for when they were supposed to be wiped out.

"The Invasion" Cyber-Fleet

They were there last series too. They're pretty clearly escaped. The Doctor can't be there everywhere they wash up.

That said, given that their ships in this are direct duplicates of the ones in The Invasion it seems fairly likely they're actually meant to be Mondas cybermen, or to have met up with and merged with that race, with the native cybermen adopting the more armoured design of the Cybus ones.

One game (which while not canon, is at least a liscenced product) has these guys actually on Telos in the tombs, which is definitely a case of Mondasmen adopting the Cybusman appearance.

As for River, I'm not sure if the average viewer dislikes River, lots of fans seem not to, but... eh. She is at least a capable, rather than girl-next-door type.

Got to agree with you by the way; Jack Harkness would be a much more viable alternative as a pilot. Hell, they could even age him by a decade or two and have him be the version contemporary with Demon's Run.

[bilateralrope]

Also, I ranted before about the whole 'this is your fault' thing, and it's irritating me even more the longer it sits. I didn't mind RTD's axe to grind about the Doctor using people and his actions having consequences that he doesn't see. If Moffat actually believes the crap that River was spouting, it's not only shit writing but makes me think he hasn't been paying attention. Even if you can justify what she said as being the propaganda inserted into her from birth (so why has she never expressed these ideas before?), it's still a rubbish way to express the idea that the Doctor might make enemies with people he's never met.

I was getting the impression that this war between them and the Doctor started over things he hasn't done yet. Things he does in response to this episode. We are talking about an enemy with time travel.

As for River's mary-sue-ism, we know that she won't die in any future episode because we have already seen her death.

[HMS Sophia]

Jack Harkness would be a much more viable alternative as a pilot. Hell, they could even age him by a decade or two and have him be the version contemporary with Demon's Run.

Jack Harkness leading a contemporary Torchwood attack fleet, launched from their starbase above Cardiff
Now that would have been a cool way to destroy the Cybermen.

[NecronLord]

Jack Harkness leading a contemporary Torchwood attack fleet, launched from their starbase above Cardiff
Now that would have been a cool way to destroy the Cybermen.

At this point in time, the 'Torchwood Archive' commissions scientific research missions (as per The Satan Pit; it may or may not have a military role.

[HMS Sophia]

I may have forgotten about that.
I don't doubt that the scientific research missions are mainly into esoteric things, like black holes, rifts in time and such. I also don't doubt that some section of torchwood remains that like to shoot the crap out of... the enemy, whoever it may be.
Or is that just me?

[NecronLord]

It's not just you. Though I would rather hope it doesn't. Torchwood is terrible at fighting aliens, and if it remains as ineffectual and bohemian it will continue to be a liability in that field.

We can merely speculate of course. But Captain Jack was probably a missed opportunity there.

[HMS Sophia]

It's not just you. Though I would rather hope it doesn't. Torchwood is terrible at fighting aliens, and if it remains as ineffectual and bohemian it will continue to be a liability in that field.

This is a fair point I was hoping they maybe became a bit more effective as they grew up into the universe

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well that was....weird. Plenty of awesome but the whole "your baby is River Song" was a big "what the fuck is going on?" moment.

I was particularly found of Amy's monologue about this great man. Right up till the "he's your father" I was thinking the Doctor. Even with that line I thought it was the Doctor, and we were going to get some weird-ass crap. Same with the "It's mine...the crib, I slept in it."

They could at least have mentioned Susan there. Would it be that hard? Really?

[dragon]

Any idea when this episode will be released on iTunes?

you can find it here
[Illegal Content Link removed in line with PR2. Index sites may not directly offer content, but they're close enough, in my reading. I'm sure he's able to do it himself if he wants. ~NL]

[LadyTevar]

I think we know how River knows the Doctor's name now. The crib had his Real Name

[Broomstick]

You know, I think Madame EyePatch and the baby Melody were gone from Demon's Run before the Doctor & Company ever showed up. The ones we saw during the episode? Gangers, both of 'em. Solves the problem of "how did she get away with her escape ship full of pirates". Also, how she could be far, far away when talking to the Doctor on the screen. Gone before he ever arrived, and probably most of those on Demon's Run didn't know, either.

[Shroom Man 777]

It was a good show. I loved it. 5 for me.

Loved the Sontaran nurse. Loved how that touched on Rory. The duality of a warrior Sontaran becoming a nurse, and Rory the nurse becoming a Roman warrior, it's something.

And I loved how they did badass Rory. Yes. The motherfucking Centurion!