'Parting of the Ways' Dalek fleet vs. the Empire

[ChosenOne54]

Um...I think you should read my commet again.

[Shroom Man 777]

Um...I think you should read my commet again.

Oh yeah. I forgot that the scenario was revised to involve Journey's End Time War-era Daleks because the Parting of the Ways Daleks made out of scavenged human DNA and led by a deranged dumbass scavenging shit in secret were total shit and couldn't cut it against Stormtroopers.

TIE fighters deployed into combat inside ISD hangars, the sudden mass-distribution of rare flechette guns and Stormtroopers who can dive 20 meters in a single bound to get out of the way of thermal detonater explosions. Haven't you been paying attention?
Apparently these things all make the Empire quite superior.

Oh my god, fighters can actually shoot at targets inside hangars! (4:30)

Certainly Stormtroopers sport other anti-armor weapons aside from blasters and thermal detonators!

Maybe Dalek slowness in maneuvering inside buildings, their limited mobility unless flying in open air, their inability to take cover, and the fact that they're roughly as large as a human (in tallness) yet take their sweet time moving around and are again very damn slow when moving on ground, makes them very vulnerable with enemies that actually threaten them and are actually capable of damaging them unlike the easily-killable pathetic enemies they dispatched with ease in all the episodes.

Daleks kill with ease:

1.) 20th century primitives armed with chemical slugthrowers

2.) 50th century civilians armed with weapons found in a TV station - holy shit, do you expect to find first-rate mil-spec gear in a civilian TV station, or just some leftover shitweapons from the rent-a-cops?

3.) 21st century guys with clunky first-generation energy weapons, and lame ramshackle cyborgs manufactured out of butchered government bureaucrats

Daleks get killed by:

1.) Unspecified big guns carried around by Doctor Destro and Jack Harkness

2.) A modified games show robot with a gun

The only conventional military force Daleks engaged in the show have, so far, been those thousands of years obsolete compared to them.

That's like saying a modern day Humvee with a machinegun is an invincible harbringer of death because it can mow down thousands of rock-chucking cavemen or spear-hurling Greek warriors.

Have we even seen them take on a technologically equal or near-equal force that can actually threaten them? In Parting of the Ways, they used considerable orbital bombardment to support their invasion force. Otherwise, they also resorted to superscience - as Strak says, and as seen in Journey's End - or slave armies, as seen in the old serials and in Daleks In New York.

[ChosenOne54]

Since these are Journey's End Daleks, that means my previous firepower estimates of vaporusing aircraft and the like still stand.

[Shroom Man 777]

It could be contrived that the heat of the Dalek energy weapon caused the German bomber's bombs to explode, to add to the huge fireball and dramaticness of the explosion, but whatever. Sure, it got vaporized. Not that it matters.

Since they've got thousands of ships, temporal weird crap, and whatever, and their base is from an inaccessible dimension and has the power to yoink planets, they take it.

I do find it hilarious that "they didn't expect Doctorb Donnawhale" or whatever to be an acceptable excuse for having a "blow up all Dalek whatever" button.

That's like saying "oh it's not stupid if the USA has a self-destruct all airplanes/tanks/submarines button" just because "they didn't expect Donald Rumsfeld to go crazy" or whatever.

It's still stupid.

The piggawatts and fattotons of stupid writing to make a contrived solution like that because the rest of the story is total shit has enough energy to vaporize a solid mass of ray shielded Anakin Skywalker/Natalie Portman AOTC/ROTS dialogue.

Uh oh, our story has reached critical mass of fat because of all the lame ass references with nonsensical two-Doctors bullshit, nonsensical Donna Doctorbs, unneeded Rose appearances, and all sorts of other slick fan-appealing shit. Oh crap what do we do now I have no idea. Uh... here have a convenient "kill all the enemies" button! Problem solved!

Done! Now let's make a special episode with a billion laughing glowing hamburger-eating Masters laughing all over the Earth because they're idiots, a hammy Timothy Dalton, and the worst whiniest over-actingest scenes of David Tennant ever!

[ChosenOne54]

Okay, I'm guessing you aren't the biggest Doctor Who fan around here.

To be fair, Stolen Earth/Journey's End are probably the worst examples of Doctor Who writing. My favourite season has always been the second one.

[Crazedwraith]

Not liking Journey's End and End of Time, doesn't mean you aren't a Doctor Who fan. it just means you have some actual appreciation for quality.

[ChosenOne54]

Not liking Journey's End and End of Time, doesn't mean you aren't a Doctor Who fan. it just means you have some actual appreciation for quality.

Eh, the way he said it gave the impression that he didn't like Doctor Who in general.

Stolen Earth/Journey's End had potential, but it ended with a retarded Deus Ex Machina. When the Doctor and Donna went to the Shadow Proclamation, it gave the impression that some huge, ingalactic war was about to happen, but the Doctor just kind of left in his TARDIS. It would have been amazing to see the Doctor go around and gather all of his past allies enemies to form an alliance, and lead them against the Daleks or something. Not just press a few buttons and blow up the Dalek fleet.

So far, the best season finale in my opinion was Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways.

[Shroom Man 777]

That's because the best Doctor in nuWho is Doctor Destro.

Though they did make awesome use of Timothy Dalton monologues to develop tension and suspense. Who needs optical illusions involving blinking or shadows, or faceless gas masked space suited child villain monsters who you forget when you look away or who move whenever you blink, when you can ratchet up the fear factor of the episode by 100% just by having Simon Skinner talk all sorts of stuff.

And men, women and children turning into the Master. And fucking laughing.

God, that was incredible.

[Crazedwraith]

And by Doctor Destro he's referring to the Ninth Doctor played by Chris Eccleston. For those that don't know Eccleston played Destro in the 2009 GI Joe movie.

[ChosenOne54]

I personally prefer Tennant, but Eccleston and Smith are both great. I think the storylines in general in seasons 5 and 6 are more well-written than the previous few though.

[Shroom Man 777]

You know what? Destro accepted his death, he sacrificed himself - knowingly - so he could save Rose, who in turn had saved humanity from the Daleks. In doing so, Destro got over his guilt of what he did in the Time War. In the last moment, he wasn't defined by who he killed - namely his own race - but by who he refused to kill or let die. He refused to exterminate humanity in order to exterminate the Daleks. He refused to go down that path. He accepted death, and he willingly died so he could save Rose. He redeemed himself with that act. All the ugly things he did in the past gone, thanks to that beautiful thing called self-sacrifice. He died for our sins, if you will. It was a Christ metaphor, and it was a pretty touching scene too, the culmination of a great character. He forgave himself and manned up and did it with no hesitation, no fear, because he loved her. And that was why Destro was so awesome.

In contrast, what do we get with that geek Tennant? A long ass spiel of constant whining about how he doesn't wanna go or some shit like that. What a crock of crap. And this comes after a whole bunch of convoluted poorly plotted junk with so much clever gags or fun references thrown in, to the point where there was no space for a compelling storyline or for decent character development or for resolution or anything. They decided that they didn't have any room for a Doctor Destro-style fantastic end to the character, so they crammed more nonsense, an extra Doctor, and a weirdo Donna. Bah. That was total crap and that was why Tennant was total crap and that's why some podunk little kid will fly his Naboo fighter into the Crucible and blow the fuck out of it with a proton torpedo while going "yipeee kee yay mon mothramotherfucker", because it was total crap!

[ChosenOne54]

It was Tennant who actually argued against that scene of him and the "I don't want to go" part. And it's kind of understandable: if you've been expecting to die while going on this crazy suicide mission, and right at the end you think you've made it, only to have your hopes dashed by an old guy trapped in a glass room... I'd be pretty pissed.

Overall though, I think Tennant did a good job, especially in the second season. The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit was one of the episodes that really stuck with me.

[Shroom Man 777]

Season Two's huge ass "epic" setpieces actually worked, since they had the right combination of bigass pew-pew explosionfests and decent storytelling. Three and Four started getting retarded, and RTD ended doing too much Micheal Bay or something.

[Darth Tedious]

Stolen Earth/Journey's End had potential, but it ended with a retarded Deus Ex Machina. When the Doctor and Donna went to the Shadow Proclamation, it gave the impression that some huge, ingalactic war was about to happen, but the Doctor just kind of left in his TARDIS. It would have been amazing to see the Doctor go around and gather all of his past allies enemies to form an alliance, and lead them against the Daleks or something. Not just press a few buttons and blow up the Dalek fleet.

Just so I got this straight, what you're saying is, Stolen Earth/Journey's End would have been better if it was A Good Man Goes To War?

[ChosenOne54]

Just so I got this straight, what you're saying is, Stolen Earth/Journey's End would have been better if it was A Good Man Goes To War?

Yes, but with space battles! Honestly, that's the one thing I think Doctor Who needs more of. There is plenty of it in the comics and novels, but you rarely get to see races actually engaging each other in combat in space in the TV series. It would be great to see, say, Dalek saucer tearing through Sontaran fleets etc.

A Good Man Goes to War was a great episode though, if you ask me.

Season Two's huge ass "epic" setpieces actually worked, since they had the right combination of bigass pew-pew explosionfests and decent storytelling. Three and Four started getting retarded, and RTD ended doing too much Micheal Bay or something.

This is true, though Season 5 and 6 are definite improvements over 3 and 4.

[ChosenOne54]

As for the actual thread, how would the current Daleks do? The New Paradigm ones that rebuilt their fleet after 'Victory of the Daleks?'

We have some info on them here, though I haven't read the actual comic book:
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Only_Good_Dalek

[Stark]

TIE fighters deployed into combat inside ISD hangars,

PROTIP - they are actually in hangars already. OH SHI-

the sudden mass-distribution of rare flechette guns

Guess who mentioned the non-standard nature of these weapons? I'm glad you concede a SW shotgun will probably penetrate Dalek shielding.

and Stormtroopers who can dive 20 meters in a single bound

I think you mean 'dive more than a Dalek' which may be 10 centimeters.

to get out of the way of thermal detonater explosions.

Since thermal detonators are apparently magic bombs that have no fragments and an exact lethality radius, diving might be a helpful idea... good thing every solider does it I guess. Except Daleks.

Apparently these things all make the Empire quite superior.

Oh poor baby - you still haven't looked up what 'superior agility' means! Don't worry, I believe in you.

Shroom, in the old serials they sometimes faced parity enemies - amusingly, when they faced the Movellans, they were reduced to TRUNDLING ACROSS A QUARRY FOR A SUICIDE BOMB ATTACK, and were shot down like dogs. If only they'd been humanoid, they could have taken cover!

The lol of the thread being constantly changed to find the wankiest outcome is fantastic. 'Who would win, x or y? Oh, I wanted x. Uh... how about Superx? Neox? One of them gotta beat those y!'

[ChosenOne54]

All of this being irrelevant if the Daleks decide to simply sit in the Medusa Cascade and teleport the Empire's planets around for fun.

[Eternal_Freedom]

For fun? Daleks don't have a concept of fun. There is one thing we (including myself) have overlooked in all these scenarios. They have intergalactic FTL and time travel drives. Why the hell would they stay and fight? If they want to build up their forces, there are a near-infinite number of places and times they could go, most of which are far easier to subdue than the Empire. By being in the SW galaxy they've already crossed into an alternate timeline/universe, so why not others still?. The Federation, perhaps. Or victorian Earth, or the Colonies of Kobol before the Cylon Holocaust. And so on.

Why stay and fight a possibly superior enemy when you can quite easily leave and return later with overwhelming force? With time travel, you could go away, spend a million years building up inumerable fleets, with no Doctor to come and stop them, and return mere moments after you left from the Imperials perspective.

[ChosenOne54]

Haha, I think that's the reason Time Travel is banned in most debates. I mean, it wouldn't be a very fair fight if a single Dalek saucer went away for a second, and came back with a fleet numbering in the trillions.

[Stark]

Oh, don't think there's anyone who hasn't noticed why you changed the thread. I find your fannishness quite amusing, but its still pretty damn lame. 'Oh, my guys lost, I'll give them control of the entire universe. Do they win now?'

It's a fucking lol you changed from trying to debate examples and power levels to this. Dalek-wank is bad enough (especially when its so ignorant and credulous, but that's 80% of Doctor Who 'analysis') but defining stupid scenarios is really the worst kind of lame. Next on CaptianIdiot54 - Daleks who have control of time and space versus... some guys who DON'T!

Your scenario change basically concedes that the Daleks won't easily win against the Empire, which is really all the thread needs. Like I said pages ago, they are simply not very impressive individually, and against parity enemies fall back on superscience or slave races. I guess I should be glad you caught up.

New thread - 10,000 Jedi in the horrible S4 finale. Which one of them mind-tricks Davros into destroying the Daleks? My vote is for Jedi 5,971!

EDIT - Haha, and here comes Eternal Moron with the typical idiot scenario - something that sounds good on paper, and yet NOBODY EVER, EVER DOES IT EVER. Shit, that sounds valid for a VS debate!

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm not sure who that addresses to be quite honest. If anything, my last comment was to the OP, what's missing is a reason why the Daleks are fighting. Now, saying that the long-range FTL and time travel engines were irreparably damaged in the escape fromt he Time War is much better than saying "It's banned!"

One other thought occurs though. From what I can recall of the OP, the dumbass God-Dalek arrives and slowly builds up his forces. Why is he suddenly forced to fight with only 200 ships? Why not just stay out of the way, in the Unkown Regions perhaps. The odds are the Empire won't find them until the Daleks have a much larger force.

[Stark]

I don't think you understand how inventing new capabilities in a VS is pretty poor form. If you have an example of anyone ever running off for a million years to time travel back for the uber win, go ahead and present it. Implicit in these suggestions, of course, is that they couldn't win otherwise, which is all the thread needs for an answer.

If you are just going to post endless mastubatory fanfics about how a group with time/space control defeat a group that doesn't, you need to grow up.

[ChosenOne54]

Oh, don't think there's anyone who hasn't noticed why you changed the thread. I find your fannishness quite amusing, but its still pretty damn lame. 'Oh, my guys lost, I'll give them control of the entire universe. Do they win now?' ]

Um, excuse me? I didn't change the thread, I'm not even the OP.

[Stark]

You don't need to edit the OP to change the thread. You've totally shifted gears to 'Daleks now have an invincible timescoop fortress', because the POTW guys kinda suck.

Would the Metrion Cascade even WORK if assembled in the SW galaxy? Doesn't it have to be specific planets and times? Or do they build it first?