Re: Farscape Re: Nerd Level

Dread Not · Post by **Dread Not** » 2012-02-06 12:22pm

Thanas wrote:Trust me guys, Old Black Magic and the Flax is not what you want to recommend to somebody who wants to see if Farscape can deliver meaningful stories. Both are cheesy to the extreme.

Seriously, apart from Nerve and the following, S1 has a lack of that.

I disagree. Even without the plot development, I'd say DNA Mad Scientist, Durka Returns, A Human Reaction and A Bug's Life are all great viewing and some of the best episodes of the series. And while a lot of the S1 episodes are cheesy to the point of pain, I wouldn't group something like the Flax in that category. It's totally mediocre, but isn't half as nauseating as episodes like I ET, Back and Back to the Future, or TGIF Again.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2012-02-06 02:01pm

Some of the best Farscape episodes were cheesy. Witness 2x31 "Out of their minds" for instance.

Ahriman238 · Post by **Ahriman238** » 2012-02-06 03:55pm

Crackers don't matter.

Alkaloid · Post by **Alkaloid** » 2012-02-06 07:22pm

Yeah, I liked most of season one as well, Jeremiah Chrighton, Back and Back and Back to the Future and I, E.T. are the only episodes in the whole show I would say not to watch becasue they are bad and add literally nothing to the show. Episodes like Exodus from Genisis and TGIF, Again are not great episodes individually, but are interesting in the technical sense that they show there was a very clear vision of the way the world worked almost from day one, setting up things like weird Sebbecan biology or the sheer scale of the Peacekeepers empire.

And like NUA said, if you have issues with a show getting silly or cheesy from time to time, Farscape may not really be for you, but that's not to say it always is, or that it doesn't tell a good story while it's being a bit cheesey.

Crackers don't matter.

Perfect example.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2012-02-06 08:33pm

Thanks guys. I won't be watching Farscape.

Clearly the nerd level I would achieve would not be acceptable.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2012-02-06 08:41pm

Amusingly despite the bad acting its way more accessible or tolerable than any Star Trek show.
Just by being cheesy about shit that ISN'T tiresome moralizing bombast puts it at the high end of western scif.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2012-02-06 09:26pm

You really ought to give DS9 another go. You are transferring the preachyness of TNG and Voyager onto it, and it really isn't there.

I mean, yeah, there is the "Duty and Honor!" and "I AM A STARFLEET OFFICER!" thrown about quite a bit, but it's nowhere near what I know you are remembering from other ST shows.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2012-02-06 09:28pm

Maybe so (I've only seen like 4 episodes), but its surprising how refreshing a scifi show that isn't about OH EMM GEE WHAT IS THE MORALS and BUT NO THAT WOULD BE WRONGO and shit like that constantly; ST did it, Stargate did it, B5 did it, Doctor DW Who did it, etc. Farscape is cheap and has some pretty bad acting (at least in s1) and the b plot is generally more interesting than the a plot, but its not putting me to sleep the way anything with 'final frontier' in the credits.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2012-02-12 09:17am

You could tell they were finding their feet, fleshing out the characters and setting, and experimenting with things in the first half of Season One, but I got a soft spot "Thank God its Friday...Again" when the Moya crew go to Planet Pol Pot. I really liked "That Old Black Magic" as much as "PK Tech Girl" in spite of the bad guy's lair dripping in late 80s/early 90s retro kitsch and is a key episode for both Captain Crais and John Crichton (with strong performances from both actors playing them).

Season One has a pretty smooth run of decent episodes from "Durka Returns" until "Family Ties", with only "Born to Be Wild" being the weak link:
Spoiler

And Farscape overall compares very well to other comparatively long running shows that also lasted four seasons - Heroes had an OK-ish first season but then rapidly collapsed into incoherent, aggressive awfulness for the rest its run, while Enterprise in its first two years was mostly mediocre and dated, taking too long to get more decent.

Alkaloid · Post by **Alkaloid** » 2012-02-13 12:09am

Yeah, that was one of the best things about Farscape, they had tight writing and plotting that always knew where it was going so it was pretty consistent. I can't really think of any examples where something happens late in the series that is directley contradicted by something in the first few seasons like normally happens.

Big Orange

Yeah. It's telling that there was not a scene in the show with Scorpius or Harvey in it that I would consider bad, regardless of the quality of the episode. Good characters and an excellent actor make for fun TV.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2012-02-13 05:43am

Yeah, Wayne Pygram is great, even though he was responsible for a script rewrite that nearly made PKW illogical.

But hey, nobody is perfect.

Alkaloid · Post by **Alkaloid** » 2012-02-13 05:48am

Yeah, Wayne Pygram is great, even though he was responsible for a script rewrite that nearly made PKW illogical.

I hadn't heard that. What was it?

PREDATOR490 · Post by **PREDATOR490** » 2012-02-13 05:00pm

I found Farscape to be an interesting series with bit of a new twist to how they portrayed things. Most of the series at the time are pompus like Star Trek or grandoise like Stargate. Here we have some random guy flung to the ass end of nowhere without a fucking clue whats going on. They obviously had to play up the old Human to make him relevant but the overall arc of the story is quite interesting. Our main character goes from a no-nothing fuckwit that has no clue about anything and is basically stringing along trying to survive, then over the course he gradually adapts to the environment going from simple human to killer nuclear terrorist that can turn around and is disgusted at how unprepared Earth is for the nightmares he has seen. On a good day he is the hero, on a bad day he is the guy desperately trying to do the right thing whilst fighting for survival.

Not to mention the animation / animitronics were extremely effective and expensive as I recall. I think Ben Browder said that Rygel was worth more to the show than he was and got in trouble when he got a bit too rough with the thing. Scorpius was easily the best character out of the bunch which is naturally why he kept coming back. Only character that really annoyed me was Sukozo but thats the issue when you bring someone in late only to have the show shitcanned.

I find the culture references they seed through the show rather interesting as well. Wether it be mentioning Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Star Trek or Star Wars they manage to pull it off being funny. The wormhole stuff got rather tedious especially towards the end but that was really the vehicle to carry the story through the character arc.

Cowl · Post by **Cowl** » 2012-02-14 03:26pm

Despite the paltry acting chops of the lead actor, the show managed to entertain. Most of the supporting actors picked up the slack, but the entire show did suffer for it. And when the supporting actors started to lose their lustre as well, the curtains started to close.

It had great visuals, exceptional make-up, decent puppetry, interesting ideas, playful banter and mild eroticism. But the stories got exceedingly worse, the visuals got compromised by the half-arsed in-door sets (e.g. interior of the command carriers, alien vessels, etc.), the acting was sustained by a whisper and the rotating roster of cast members started to get stale.

(Not to mention the ka-powing! sounds for all the punching, kicking, scratching and riffle-butting.)

Interesting characters:
- Zhaan (especially the episode where her evolutionary backstory was explored, but got derailed in the later seasons),
- Sikozu (the only one with half-a-brain; devious, cunning, manipulative, respectably self-interested; only fault was her inexplicable fascination with the BDSM gimp),
- Pilot (great puppetry, even temper, brilliant addition to the show),
- Dargo (the Farscape answer to the Klingons, got tiresome in his interaction with Crichton in the later seasons, but had potential as diametrical counterpart to Zhaan, and did kick around Crichton in a couple of satisfying episodes),
- Aeryn (tough broad, really picked up the slack for Browder's shoddy acting, did a lot for the show).

Terrible characters: Chianna (great potential, but steadily turned into a mouthy, unruly, adolescent brat), Crais (just didn't have it, like Crichton), Stark (nearest airlock), Crichton (red-blooded, all-American, interstellar frat boy whose greatest strength was his looks; and had a terrible stage voice), the Dominar (toilet humor was tedious, but over-all sort of amusing; could have had potential in light of his backstory as Dominor).

It had a good run, but its cancellation was for the better.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2012-02-14 06:01pm

Man, you somehow managed to miss half the points of the show there.

PREDATOR490 · Post by **PREDATOR490** » 2012-02-14 06:36pm

Most of the awesome episodes tend to be the one-shot episode wonders. The overall arc tended to be rather slow but that was generally because they couldnt anything with it.
Moya had no weapons and couldnt fight crap so taking on an interstellar empire would be impossible let alone two and the crew were hardly shock troops. Just random prisoners, nutters and misfits that got stuck on the same boat trying to survive.

Star Trek or Star Wars this show certainly was not... but then it never really tried to be which is where the unique aspect came in. It got rather stagnant towards the end because they were hitting the repeated wall of going up against two interstellar empires hunting down Moya to rip Crighton's head off. That said, the finale of S4 was brutally effective as a counterpoint to how far the series had went. Our lovely American hero becomes just as ruthless, brutal and cold as Scorpius walking into a meeting between empires with a nuclear bomb strapped to his thigh.

That effectively captures what they do for the whole series, moments of utter brilliance brought to you because the characters are just THAT desperate and using whatever comes to hand.

Cowl · Post by **Cowl** » 2012-02-15 01:45pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:Moya had no weapons and couldnt fight crap so taking on an interstellar empire would be impossible let alone two and the crew were hardly shock troops. Just random prisoners, nutters and misfits that got stuck on the same boat trying to survive.

Moya having no weapons was really the weak link in the story. I considered it a natural point of evolution for the ship, Spoiler

Star Trek or Star Wars this show certainly was not... but then it never really tried to be which is where the unique aspect came in. It got rather stagnant towards the end because they were hitting the repeated wall of going up against two interstellar empires hunting down Moya to rip Crighton's head off.

When Shikozu entered the fray I expected the series to finally take off. It was unfortunate that Chianna wasn't replaced as well, to coincide with Shikozu's introduction. Someone more competent would have been a great addition to the show. It would have at least given them a fighting chance. At this point Spoiler

That said, the finale of S4 was brutally effective as a counterpoint to how far the series had went. Our lovely American hero becomes just as ruthless, brutal and cold as Scorpius walking into a meeting between empires with a nuclear bomb strapped to his thigh.

I found that the transformation to 'ruthless, brutal and cold' transpired much earlier in the series, more notably when he started wearing his leather trench coat, which started after his encounter with Scorpius I believe. That was also when the 'madness' angle started to receive more attention.

PREDATOR490 wrote:That effectively captures what they do for the whole series, moments of utter brilliance brought to you because the characters are just THAT desperate and using whatever comes to hand.

Even if that involves swinging from electrical wiring, while shooting the pulse equivalent to a gatling gun.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2012-02-15 02:53pm

You really didn't understand the show at all.

Cowl · Post by **Cowl** » 2012-02-15 05:02pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:You really didn't understand the show at all.

I'm unable to address your point in its current form, but if you're willing to expound on your position, I might be able to redress any misgivings that you might have.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2012-02-15 05:10pm

I'll try and do this.

Cowl wrote:Despite the paltry acting chops of the lead actor

Disagree. His transformation of Chrichton from S1 to S2 for one is masterful.

the acting was sustained by a whisper and the

Again, disagree. Just watch Gigi Edgley's body control or Raelee Hill's eye movements. They sell the aliens.

rotating roster of cast members started to get stale.

You do know that it had the most cast turnovers of any SF show out there, right?

- Zhaan (especially the episode where her evolutionary backstory was explored, but got derailed in the later seasons),
- Sikozu (the only one with half-a-brain; devious, cunning, manipulative, respectably self-interested; only fault was her inexplicable fascination with the BDSM gimp),

Again, said "inexplicable fascination" is easy to understand. Sikozu values intelligence and logic. Scorpius is that and a handful, plus he saved her life and is most likely the only one who really spent time with her from the crew.

Terrible characters: Chianna (great potential, but steadily turned into a mouthy, unruly, adolescent brat), Crais (just didn't have it, like Crichton), Stark (nearest airlock), Crichton (red-blooded, all-American, interstellar frat boy whose greatest strength was his looks; and had a terrible stage voice), the Dominar (toilet humor was tedious, but over-all sort of amusing; could have had potential in light of his backstory as Dominor).

I think you miss the main reasons the characters existed.

It had a good run, but its cancellation was for the better.

Again, nobody really would agree with that.

But more important than those are the following misconceptions:

Cowl wrote:Moya having no weapons was really the weak link in the story. I considered it a natural point of evolution for the ship, Spoiler
after her child died and such.

THis shows you misunderstood one of the central points of the story and a main character.

When Shikozu entered the fray I expected the series to finally take off. It was unfortunate that Chianna wasn't replaced as well, to coincide with Shikozu's introduction. Someone more competent would have been a great addition to the show. It would have at least given them a fighting chance. At this point Spoiler
Crichton had access to the 'ancient knowledge', Scorpius was part of the crew and D'argo had his incinerator craft. If Zhaan had stayed on they would have been a formidable 'stealth' cadre.

Yeah, as if changing the crew into some stealth commandoes would not violate their characters horribly.

Cowl · Post by **Cowl** » 2012-02-16 04:27am

Thanas wrote:Disagree. His transformation of Chrichton from S1 to S2 for one is masterful.

You're referring to the addition of his leather trench-coat and eye twitch?

But seriously, a number of things changed in season 2, among which was shortening the duration of a single episode, from 50 - 52 minutes to roughly 40 minutes. The episodes became more condensed, and action-packed. This is also when they changed the role of Zhaan, which was unfortunate. And changed a number of other things. My guess is that Ben Browder looking good in a white t-shirt started to bore audiences (50 minutes long), which is why they gave him his trench-coat, handgun and gun belt.

Again, disagree. Just watch Gigi Edgley's body control or Raelee Hill's eye movements. They sell the aliens.

They were more alien than most of the alien species seen on Stargate or in the Trek franchise, but she was unable to sustain the alien quality of her character beyond her original appearance. One episode in particular demonstrated how Edgley's routine just didn't cut it: the grave planet episode. On the part of Raelee Hill I have no complaints.

You do know that it had the most cast turnovers of any SF show out there, right?

What does it matter? Chiana, the Screeching Lioness, the crazy Spit-lady, Crais, Stark -- they were all forgettable. I would only make some allowance for the Screeching Lioness, as she was sort of amusing, until she turned into Chiana the Brat 2.0.

Again, said "inexplicable fascination" is easy to understand. Sikozu values intelligence and logic. Scorpius is that and a handful, plus he saved her life and is most likely the only one who really spent time with her from the crew.

But Shikozu was portrayed as a fawning acolyte of Scorpius, which just didn't make any sense. Later on, her background story was explored in the final season, which would have accounted for her 'fascination' with Scorpius, on some level, but I just felt that it didn't work.

I think you miss the main reasons the characters existed.

Chianna, the teenager of the family, Stark the replacement of a certain someone, which wasn't meant to be, Crais the revenge-driven maniac, with some hope of redemption, the Dominor (the floating toilet bowl).

I believe they never did try to explore Rygel's backstory because it would have cost too much.

Again, nobody really would agree with that.

Sometimes a show needs to end, like Stargate Atlantis, Stargate SG-1 or Babylon 5. Of course some shows are different, like the untimely cancellation of Deadwood, which still had another season in store for us.

THis shows you misunderstood one of the central points of the story and a main character.

Not really. Spoiler

Yeah, as if changing the crew into some stealth commandoes would not violate their characters horribly.

Not stealth commandos, just their modus operandi. They would obviously not survive as shock troops. Stealth and guile would be their m.o. of choice.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2012-02-16 03:30pm

Considering that Moya is a pacifist, her having weapons would just be silly. At most, she had DRDs, but those things doubled as repair robots.

Dread Not · Post by **Dread Not** » 2012-02-16 03:33pm

Cowl wrote:You're referring to the addition of his leather trench-coat and eye twitch?

Most likely he's talking about his rising to the occasion of becoming better skilled and mentally prepared to defend himself and his friends. In the beginning of the series he's naive, confused but optimistic. Over the course of the first season he slowly adapts to his environment and is able to learn how his new world operates. Then he encounters Scorpious and is forever changed. He becomes more confident in his abilities and is no longer hesitant to kill, but it is also clear that he is traumatized by what he suffered, and over time due to a multitude of factors he becomes less capable of coping. Browder is given a complex character arc and he does an excellent job conveying it.

Cowl wrote:But seriously, a number of things changed in season 2, among which was shortening the duration of a single episode, from 50 - 52 minutes to roughly 40 minutes.

While I never saw the show in its original run on Sci-Fi, every re-run from S1 I've seen on other networks has been the same length as in every other season and has had several scenes cut out. I've only ever seen the 50 minute versions on the DVDs. They may have simply wanted to stop filming extra footage that a lot of people would never see.

Cowl wrote:The episodes became more condensed, and action-packed.

I fail to see how season 2 was any more action packed than season 1. There are just as many quieter more character oriented episodes in season 2 if not more, like the Way We Weren't, the Locket and the Ugly Truth. And there are just as many action sequences in season 1. They're just better done in season 2.

Cowl wrote:This is also when they changed the role of Zhaan, which was unfortunate. And changed a number of other things. My guess is that Ben Browder looking good in a white t-shirt started to bore audiences (50 minutes long), which is why they gave him his trench-coat, handgun and gun belt.

OR it was part of a natural character arc of Crichton becoming more accustomed to his environment and more hardened by his experiences like anyone would. But I fail to see what any of this has to do with Browder's "acting chops." There are certainly better actors out there, but while playing Crichton, Browder manages to convey a wide range of emotions both subtle and pronounced with a more than sufficient degree of authenticity. His character is put in a variety of situations and for the most part behaves realistically.

Cowl wrote:They were more alien than most of the alien species seen on Stargate or in the Trek franchise, but she was unable to sustain the alien quality of her character beyond her original appearance.

You're being incredibly vague.

Cowl wrote:One episode in particular demonstrated how Edgley's routine just didn't cut it: the grave planet episode.

That episode is shit in general but I see no reason why Edgley's performance is to blame. The episode has a boring plot populated with a bunch of annoying idiot aliens. None of the actors were given much to work with. Her performance at the beginning where she's stricken with grief but can't find anyone to talk about it is plenty convincing. My biggest issue with her performance was how she constantly switched between American and Australian accents during the first season.

Cowl wrote:But Shikozu was portrayed as a fawning acolyte of Scorpius, which just didn't make any sense. Later on, her background story was explored in the final season, which would have accounted for her 'fascination' with Scorpius, on some level, but I just felt that it didn't work.

What about it doesn't make sense? Sikozu finds Scorpious intriguing for his intelligence and resourcefulness. He manages to use it to save her life and afterwards he's one of the few crew members who appreciates her company. They share a mutual hatred for the Scarrans which makes him a valuable ally. Scorpious has an agenda so it makes sense that she would want to assist him, since while on Moya she really doesn't have anything better to do.

Cowl wrote:Sometimes a show needs to end, like Stargate Atlantis, Stargate SG-1 or Babylon 5. Of course some shows are different, like the untimely cancellation of Deadwood, which still had another season in store for us.

Farscape's cancellation was also untimely and they only managed to get a conclusion through the mini-series after rabid fan demand. As I said before I thought the series started to slowly decline in quality after the end of season 2, and I really didn't get any enjoyment out of the Peacekeeper Wars, so I don't mind it ending after four seasons but it would have been nice if they didn't have to conclude everything so abruptly.

Cowl wrote:Not really. Spoiler
Moya was created by some god-like race of builders, and wasn't meant to be used as an instrument of war, or whatever. But installing defensive equipment on board, like space mines, or missiles out of the cargo bays, would surely not have mattered, as she was also carrying a prowler in her cargo bay, which was ultimately a war machine as well. And Zhaan was presiding over the entire affair, wasn't she? She would have ensured that the weapons would be used for defensive purposes only.

Um, what the hell? Until the end of season 2 they are dirt poor and at one point run out of food. Where are they going to find all of these mines and missiles plus the means to deliver them? It's not like they would really do any good against actual warships. They only managed to get their shield generator off of a disabled command carrier. Their advantage is that they can run and hide through starburst. And after they actually get some riches at the end of season 2 Spoiler

There's really no situation they encounter in the series where a weapons system of the nature you're describing would have been any more useful than starburst. The Peacekeepers had to create Talyn to weaponize Leviathans. Do you think Moya's crew could do it effectively if they couldn't?

Cowl wrote:Not stealth commandos, just their modus operandi. They would obviously not survive as shock troops. Stealth and guile would be their m.o. of choice.

I really have no clue what you are proposing. In the last few episodes of season 4 they execute a plan full of subterfuge, stealth and guile to get Aeryn back. In "I Shrink Therefore I Am" (Man this show had some dumb episode titles) Crichton sneaks around Moya killing off the intruders one by one "Die Hard style." They repeatedly manage to use their skills and resources to take down foes far more powerful than themselves. Just what the hell is the issue?

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2012-02-16 03:37pm

I'll answer the general point which you seem to be missing over and over again. One of the main points, nay themes of the entire series is that Moya is not a battleship. Expecting her to carry weapons or mines is contrary to that theme. Your insisting on such as a "natural evolution" is a pretty bad idea and shows you misunderstood one central theme of the show.

Another central theme is that the crew are a bunch of freaking outcasts and self-interested people who do not care about the greater picture that much, nor that they are competent fighters. Your insistence of them going onwards with the stealth approach is pretty bad, especially considering they are wanted everwhere. Heck, the only time they try to go the stealth route they messed up horribly and let Aeryn get captured. It was only for Braca not killing them when he had the chance (most likely due to his allegiance to Scorpius) that they got away from that asteroid.

Their second attempt was even more amateurish and had it not been for Scorpius and Sikozu (again) they would not have survived Katratzi.

Such, your insistence on such an approach when the show depicts them as sucking at it is another reason why you did not understand the series.

Again, said "inexplicable fascination" is easy to understand. Sikozu values intelligence and logic. Scorpius is that and a handful, plus he saved her life and is most likely the only one who really spent time with her from the crew.
But Shikozu was portrayed as a fawning acolyte of Scorpius, which just didn't make any sense. Later on, her background story was explored in the final season, which would have accounted for her 'fascination' with Scorpius, on some level, but I just felt that it didn't work.

The spy thing was a last minute script rewrite. The original story idea was for this to be portrayed as a love story and it should be read as this. Scorpius is the only one who listens to Sikozu and spends time with her playing chess etc. Sikozu is the only one who does not hate him or is prejudiced for what he is. Both have similar life goals and saved each others life numerous times. It is easy to see why they would choose to form a union.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2012-02-16 03:43pm

Alkaloid wrote:
Yeah, Wayne Pygram is great, even though he was responsible for a script rewrite that nearly made PKW illogical.
I hadn't heard that. What was it?

Halfway through the shoot Pygram demanded a change of script because he felt Scorpius was not menacing enough so far. So he had the writers change the "spy discovered" scene, with the spy suddenly being Sikozu. Which just does not make sense on any level, especially as one would assume her being the spy would result in far more damage given the access to info she has. Originally Grunchlik was supposed to be the spy. (Just assuming grunchlik to be the spy actually makes more sense from story flow as well. Look at when the troubles start for the crew in PKW and it would make no sense for Sikozu to agree to such a deal when the Scarrans could not keep it without crippling their empire due to losing all their administrators and technicians.)

The original storyline was supposed to be:

Spoiler

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