Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs UFP/ A-Q Dominion

[Connor MacLeod]

-Taking a step back, why would the Feds align against the Empire with the FPA and/or Iserlohn? In defense of democracy? Vital trading partner? Perhaps Admiral Bucock is the guy who sets everything in motion? Or humanitarian reasons as the Alliance suffers under Imperial rule (depending on your timeframe, it could even be because the Federation opposes the Goldenbaum dynasty, and once the Empire comes under Reinhards control he assumes that rivalry just as he did with the FPA)

My bet? A place to retire or live in peace and general freedom without having to worry about Reinhard or the Empire, or having to fight a war they may no longer believe in. The FPA remnants/Iserlohn might actually be more compatible with the Federation, at least under yang.

I admit personally I kinda like this idea for the whole 'Renegade Legion' dynamic to it. The integration of those two sides could be interesting, although in the context of a larger story it would be, as you say, time consuming and only somethign to explore in a long term project.

-Which takes us back to the time place and circumstances surrounding first contact. Which is where you seemed to start and I think this is what opened you more up to critique, because honestly, you picked a shitty start. The Federation mows down a fleet of unidentified ships because they "might" be dominion? Pretty flimsy. I also don't think the Dominion war as a setting does you any favors, but that's personal preference. I think your own story would be enhanced not having to tell another one. You were obviously trying to provoke your war and picked something that, were it feasible, would do just that with little to no consideration of whether or not it would work. But i'm getting ahead of myself.

I agree with the absuridty of the FEderation attacking the Empire just becuase they're *unknowns* but I'm not entirely convinced that the Dominion War is a bad idea. It's not as if the Dominion and founders were written as totally one-dimensional, mustache twirling villains (the way the Borg came to be.) They ended that war with a peace treaty, and they have goals and motivations, and despite their conquest and military oriented mentality (and general brutality) once they conquer or ally with someone they do hold to things (EG forbidding CArdassia from invading Bajor.)

And at the same time if he wants war, the Dominion is probably the most likely to attack first. Only the Borg might be more inclined, and they ARE pretty much one dimsnional villains (at least in Voyager/movie era) who serve simply to be fought.

On the other hand maybe setting the story in or around BoBW or Wolf 359 might not be bad either if we're going for a pure military story. Youc ould even have Sisko in it without involving DS9 (Wasn't he and his wife present?) That would also create an interesting dynamic to explore between Picard and Sisko - something that was seeded in the DS9 story but never really explored.

-What timeframe are you putting each setting in? What characters are you going to specifically focus on? If you are all about writing for Reinhard and his Admirals more than the Alliance characters there you go, and what Trek characters do you think you would want to focus on? Unless you are writing a terrible sometimes funny mostly useless comedy for cheap laughs and shock value, this should be semi helpful advice.

If he wanted to have the LOGH empire 'attack' then he probably should have set it in a Pre-Reinhard Empire era.. they seemed far more expansionist and prone to attacking first in earlier eras. Once Reinhard is on the scene that becomes less likely.

On the Trek side, well unless you have a hard on for Sisko or Data why not set it post-Nemesis? I still think the Klingons would make for a better adversary, and you can have their alliance with the Federation and the perceived oppression of the FPA (if that's known) be factors in aligning the UFP against the Empire. Its an easy setup, and by being aligned with the Klingons the AQ can have larger fleets to wield against the four and five digit Imperial fleets, not to mention the fighters.

Are the Klingons really that conquest minded in the TNG onwards? They'll fight wars gladly and they are warriors, but I never got the impression that they actually sought to conquer anyone out of habit. Which gets back to the whole 'Who attacks first' to set this up, which seems a bit like a contrivance.

If we're going with the Nemesis era, why not re-write things some and have a Shinzon (or shinzon like) character at the head of the Romulan empire heading towards a war with the Federation? I'm not sure how to tie LOGH into that though. Maybe Yang and the Iserlohn forces have to abandon the base and flee and just end up in a wormhole/dimension shift just cuz? Maybe Q brings them over. I dunno. Anyhow they run across the Federation and seek Asylum. Reinhard follows because he wants to end the war (and have his battle with Yang due to the ego you mentioned.) He won't neccesarily 'attack' the Federation out of hand but he is brought into contact and may be made to pause.

The federation has a new ally, one who may give Reinhard an excuse to attack and invade, but its not an easy fight. But the FEderation (and the Iserlohn) forces are also caught between two enemies, and a two-front war is not something anyone wants to fight. Hell it doesnt even have to break into a full-scale, all out war. Maybe they just settle for a 'cold war' with occasional skirmishes or fights by proxy.

Trying to add in the Borg and Dominion would take a lot of talent to pull off without killing your main story, unless you are prepared to write it long as hell just like LoGH and have more writing ability than I give you credit for. But your scene just sounds like a clusterfuck (the bad kind).

Dominion could work. Borg is only for pure military. Putting both in together is rather ambitious and long-term so I will agree with you there. although the idea of a five way conflict has some appeal as well just for the sheer confusion angle (who's fightng who?)

As far as the Empire being expansionist. Just how expansionist are they? Reinhard wants to fight Yang because Yang has thwarted him so often and they never really fought each other decisively, and he wants to conquer the FPA, but I never got the impression that was something he wanted to do, but more had to do. The War had been fought for as long as anyone could remember - longer - and things like that have a way of taking on a life of their own. It had to be ended, one way or anothre, and there was no nice way to do it. too much blood, too much death, too much destruction.

Besides, its not exactly like the FPA were the good guys. They were pretty damn fanatical in fact, and their government was not exactly trustworthy for much of the time. In Reinhards position he may not have much reason to think they wouldn't attack again. Hell, could he even take that chance?

And then there were the Fezzani and Terraists. Weren't they basically manipualting both sides for their own end for much of the war? As I recall they changed their mind and pushed the Empire into conquering the alliance (hence why they gave the Empire the tech to make Geiersberg mobile.) They were going to control the Empire as a whole then, or something.

And if he wants to include TNG and DS9 characters I dont think he's require dto include EVERYONE. Despite how the show managed to contrive it, I imagine federation crews can be broken up or reassigned. In a war, experienced, veteran crews are going to be at a premium, so it wouldn't be terribly shocking if people get transferred form one post to another (so you could get rid of people you didn't want in the story by having then transferred elsewhere. God knows Riker could use a command. And that's exactly what they did with O'brien and Worf IIRC.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, without getting into the technical details too much, how do you think the Valkyrie fighters would play into this whole situation? It seems they would provide an incredible advantage against more agile federation ships unless AQ shield technology has a massive advantage over LoGH fighter weaponry. I admit not being familiar with fighter capacity for Imperial carriers though.

They can take out their own universes starships, so they should have a chance of threatening FEd ships, although they may have to gang up on them due to shields. I'm suspecting Fed ships might actually take more abuse than LOGH starships (LOGH seems to follow the honorverse approach to ship design - you avoid taking as much damage as you cna, but you'll take damage sooner or later, even if just a little. And suffer losses.) The issue of federation phaser 'point defense' is also an issue, especially at the ranges fighters engage at (They could be shot down.)

And don't forget that the Federation had its own fighters, which I think are both bigger and more heavily armed than their LOGH counterparts. They could be a non-trivial threat as well.

If Starfleet point defense is as good as has been claimed (near perfect, at least at point blank ranges) and there are large numbers of ships (and fighters supporting them), there's a good dhance that sending in waves of fighters could be suicidal.

(was that too technical? )

[takemeout_totheblack]

First of all there is nothing original about the setting for your fic, there is nothing original about a crossover fanfiction. You are using established properties. There is nothing wrong with this, but don't kid yourself. Secondly, your "thinking process" isn't so much of a process as it is an arbitrary decision that you haven't put as much thought into as you would like to think.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by 'original'. I meant 'original' in that the setting I originally posted, i.e the setting in the Original Post. What I did not mean to convey was that I was a deluded CWC-level ficcer who didn't understand fundamental aspects of fanfiction crossovers, that crossing over two licensed properties can be fun.
An understandable mistake given the vagueness of the language, but it also gives me insight into what mindset you are approaching this thing with.

As for your other points, I see where you're coming from. Your gripes are legitimate and justified, but I feel any further debate on the subject would be like punching a brick wall for the both of us; pointless and going nowhere fast. I look forward to reading your reviews of the work, your insight has been valuable.

[Gunhead]

GE doesn't seem to have dedicated carriers. FPA does have them but I don't remember how many fighters they carry at any given time. Fighters are fast attack craft and I'd imagine they'd be used in similar roles as ST use space Yugos (Bird of prey for those who don't watch Chuck) and other smaller craft. I've never seen ST point defense fire, other than the movie and lets not forget that LoGH ships can shoot down fighters / missiles / tracking mines with their main guns. It's hard to quantify but LoGH fighters are agile little bastards and they'd need to be fast and have pretty good endurance considering they fight in pretty big battlefields.
Actually this begs the question, how many targets can a typical ST ship engage at once? LoGH ships can spew out a fuckton of missiles in a single salvo.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

I'm pretty sure the standard capacity (judging by visuals) for an FPA carrier is ~100 Spartanian fighters, so I'd assume that Imperial carriers are roughly equal. But then they might not be, I've only seen them a few times over the course of the series.

It should also be noted that the GE also makes use of gunships, those little flying bricks that look sort of like a baby destroyer, and those have been seen to carry some pretty powerful weaponry. Seeing as how they are shieldless and have been stated to require fighter escort, they will probably be of limited use if Trek's claim of near perfect accuracy at point blank is true.

[Connor MacLeod]

As for your other points, I see where you're coming from. Your gripes are legitimate and justified, but I feel any further debate on the subject would be like punching a brick wall for the both of us; pointless and going nowhere fast. I look forward to reading your reviews of the work, your insight has been valuable.

Dude, I don't think you're getting this. He's not trying to have an argument with you. He, and others, are trying to get you to think on this some. None of us can force you to write the story in any particular way. All we can do is get you to consider alternate ideas and options and such. And that's what is happening. He's taking more of a critical role (and I suspect devil's advocate) to help you become a better writer. He's not doing this to be antagonistic or beat up on you. Stop thinking like this is a vs debate and someone has to 'win'

Another way to approach your story is simply to ignore REinhard. Yang and his bunch get translated into the ST universe and run across the Federation, who grant them asylum and support. Then you can decide which point in time (and in which series) you want to pursue it based on. You don't even have to give up the exploding starships and wars to do it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Trek's 'near perfect' point defense stemmed largely from the old SW vs ST debates on whether SW fighters were a threat to ST ships at all or not (either in context of fighting other SW ships or by themselves.) I dont know if it was ever resolved but I know its come up. For my part I don't really believe in it being near perfect (The idea IIRC was that we hardly ever see phaser beams miss, which I consider a gross oversimplification) but they would be a risk, especially against larger fleets.

I actually consider the Federation small craft (fighters, runabouts, possibly even shuttles or delta flyers) to be a bigger concern since the Fed equivalents will be bigger, tougher, and probably with more teeth.

If FPA fighters teamed up with Federation fighters, I'd expect them to be used to support their bigger cousins or to perhaps exploit the damage the big ships do, since their beams tend to be more 'surgical' (deeper penetration.) They might be good for making crippling attacks (like on warp nacelles perhaps) and if they ofught the Dominion I imagine they'd be able to swamp Jem'Hadar attack ships quite easily (singe IIRC the Jem Hadar attack ships have only a single weapon aside from Kamikaze attacks.)

As far as accel goes: we know the anime LOGH forces can pull maybe tens of gees, perhaps hundreds of gees for linear accel (although not more than 100-200gees preferrably to avoid power generation inconsistencies - I'd actually prefer less than 100 gees) and their manuvering jets can pull single or double digit. I'd expect fighters might be several times more agile.

Licensed LOGH has missiles capable of (I bleieve) 10 gees, which is far lower than the anime. Depending on how you think the missiles are deployed, that may or may not contrast, so but it is possible to argue that their ships (And probably fighters) are under 10 gees (and that might actually be good for consistency and the calcs in universe when you factor in the other licensed sources.)

How fast fed ships go will probably depend on whether fighters have their own AMRE, but I expect Fed Fighters are faster than the starship (hundreds or thousands of gees with AMRE.. I'd guess single or maybe oduble digit gees without based on estimated 'conversion' ratios.)

[Darth Fanboy]

My bet? A place to retire or live in peace and general freedom without having to worry about Reinhard or the Empire, or having to fight a war they may no longer believe in. The FPA remnants/Iserlohn might actually be more compatible with the Federation, at least under yang.

That's why the Alliance would ally with the Feds sure, but my question was reversed, asking what would be motivations for the UFP to align with Yang, not the other way around.

I agree with the absuridty of the FEderation attacking the Empire just becuase they're *unknowns* but I'm not entirely convinced that the Dominion War is a bad idea. It's not as if the Dominion and founders were written as totally one-dimensional, mustache twirling villains (the way the Borg came to be.) They ended that war with a peace treaty, and they have goals and motivations, and despite their conquest and military oriented mentality (and general brutality) once they conquer or ally with someone they do hold to things (EG forbidding CArdassia from invading Bajor.)

And at the same time if he wants war, the Dominion is probably the most likely to attack first. Only the Borg might be more inclined, and they ARE pretty much one dimsnional villains (at least in Voyager/movie era) who serve simply to be fought.

This was why I suggested the Klingons, as they would most certainly be a militaristic group likely to engage in hostilities without the array of baggage that comes with using the Dominion. And post-Nemesis they are certainly in a strong position given the instability in the Romulan Empire and weakness of the Cardassians.

On the other hand maybe setting the story in or around BoBW or Wolf 359 might not be bad either if we're going for a pure military story. Youc ould even have Sisko in it without involving DS9 (Wasn't he and his wife present?) That would also create an interesting dynamic to explore between Picard and Sisko - something that was seeded in the DS9 story but never really explored.

If he wants the rest of the DS9 crew though, including those established character dyanmics, and if he wants a Federation with the more advanced ship[s at its disposal than anything taking place long before First Contact doesn't really work does it?

If he wanted to have the LOGH empire 'attack' then he probably should have set it in a Pre-Reinhard Empire era.. they seemed far more expansionist and prone to attacking first in earlier eras. Once Reinhard is on the scene that becomes less likely.

Which was what I suggested, mostly because the Federation would be fairly quick to align against the Goldenbaum Dynasty.

Are the Klingons really that conquest minded in the TNG onwards? They'll fight wars gladly and they are warriors, but I never got the impression that they actually sought to conquer anyone out of habit. Which gets back to the whole 'Who attacks first' to set this up, which seems a bit like a contrivance.

As of STO, the Federation and Klingon Empire are back to being hostile with each other. As I recall the Klingons didn't exactly hesitate that much to invade Cardassian space during DS9 either, although I acknowledge that things were probably at least a little different under Gowron than with Martok as Chancellor.

If we're going with the Nemesis era, why not re-write things some and have a Shinzon (or shinzon like) character at the head of the Romulan empire heading towards a war with the Federation? I'm not sure how to tie LOGH into that though. Maybe Yang and the Iserlohn forces have to abandon the base and flee and just end up in a wormhole/dimension shift just cuz? Maybe Q brings them over. I dunno. Anyhow they run across the Federation and seek Asylum. Reinhard follows because he wants to end the war (and have his battle with Yang due to the ego you mentioned.) He won't neccesarily 'attack' the Federation out of hand but he is brought into contact and may be made to pause.

The federation has a new ally, one who may give Reinhard an excuse to attack and invade, but its not an easy fight. But the FEderation (and the Iserlohn) forces are also caught between two enemies, and a two-front war is not something anyone wants to fight. Hell it doesnt even have to break into a full-scale, all out war. Maybe they just settle for a 'cold war' with occasional skirmishes or fights by proxy.

The Geiersberg warp could easily have created a number of deus ex plot devices, it also comes at a time Reinhard has almost total control of the Empire, is reasonably healthy, and Yang Wenli has more than just his reputation to back him up, having resources and something more to protect.

Dominion could work. Borg is only for pure military. Putting both in together is rather ambitious and long-term so I will agree with you there. although the idea of a five way conflict has some appeal as well just for the sheer confusion angle (who's fightng who?)

The problem I have with using the Dominion is, as I stated before, I don't see the Empire engaging in a war of aggression needlessly if the Dominion and Federation are already engaged with each other. They will let the two sides burn each other out, we have seen Reinhard's track record doing this.

As far as the Empire being expansionist. Just how expansionist are they? Reinhard wants to fight Yang because Yang has thwarted him so often and they never really fought each other decisively, and he wants to conquer the FPA, but I never got the impression that was something he wanted to do, but more had to do. The War had been fought for as long as anyone could remember - longer - and things like that have a way of taking on a life of their own. It had to be ended, one way or anothre, and there was no nice way to do it. too much blood, too much death, too much destruction.

How expanionist would you call a nation that, already in control of roughly half of known space, decides to conquer the other half? Lohengramm took Phezzan and then the Alliance after the Empire had failed to do so for hundreds of years. It doesn't matter if he wanted to or was just compelled to do it, the fact is that he did it despite being in a position to stop it.

Besides, its not exactly like the FPA were the good guys. They were pretty damn fanatical in fact, and their government was not exactly trustworthy for much of the time. In Reinhards position he may not have much reason to think they wouldn't attack again. Hell, could he even take that chance?

Uh...yeah.

The FPA were founded by political prisoners who fled the Empire and the Empire subsequently started a war of conquest and aggression that lasted generations. That the Alliance government and military leadership had corrupt figures does not exactly turn them into an atagonist the way you think. You noticed why their invasion failed, because they were stuck trying to feed everyone they had "liberated" from the Empire, and as the old saying goes no good deed goes unpunished.

And then there were the Fezzani and Terraists. Weren't they basically manipualting both sides for their own end for much of the war? As I recall they changed their mind and pushed the Empire into conquering the alliance (hence why they gave the Empire the tech to make Geiersberg mobile.) They were going to control the Empire as a whole then, or something.

It depends on the timeframe the author picks what those two factions are capable of doing, if they even still exist in any form.

And if he wants to include TNG and DS9 characters I dont think he's require dto include EVERYONE.

Except I believe this is the author's stated intent to use most, if not all of the characters. Otherwise his reasoning for using the time period he has selected wouldn't exactly fite.

[Darth Fanboy]

(was that too technical? )

No that's about right.

I think that up to this point in the thread the fighters have been overlooked. We know that in LoGH it is not uncommon to have fleets with upwards of 10,000 ships, and that a large Cardassian/Dominion fleet in DS9 was considered big with only 1200 ships (a number that included fighters).

Federation fighters, runabouts, and other smaller ships exist but I don't think the numbers are even close to what a fleet led by one of Reinhard's admirals would have. Which means that unless there is a big tech disparity between Trek shields and LoGH weapons that even the smaller and more agile Fed ships wont be able to simply outmaneuver and attack at will.

EDIT:

And my take on the series was the Spartanian fighters simply kicked the crap out of the Valkyries most of the time, and that they were very effective in close also. If the FPA were aligned with the Federation, I think there would be an advantage in terms of fighters to the UFP/FPA over the Empire.

[Vympel]

Yes, the Empire does have carriers - two types - one for gunships (which are unique to the Empire) and one for Valkyrie fighters (both are similar, but not identical). The latter is seen most clearly in Season 1 of the Gaiden during the 6th Battle of Iserlohn.

In terms of fighter capacity of its carriers, its really an irrelevant question at this stage, the Empire has a different doctrine that sees more Valkyrie fighters distributed amongst its ships than the Alliance:-

1. Imperial battleships carry 48 Valkyrie fighters each (24 bays per side of the ventral engine nacelle) according to the licensed material and DVD special features. At Astarte at least one battleship is seen with 33 Valkyrie launch bays on the port side (check the wiki entry here).

2. Imperial cruisers carry three valkyrie fighters each, with some being modified (by way of modular construction) to carry an extra six - six fighters are seen launching from Reinhard's cruiser in Season 2 of the Gaiden.

3. Imperial destroyers carry two Valkyrie fighters each.

So, a Rear Admiral's fleet of 200-250 battleships, 400-500 cruisers and 1,000 destroyers could, using the minimum per ship complements, put from 12,800 to 15,500 Valkyries out, before you even consider the carriers (40 in a Rear Admiral's fleet).

And my take on the series was the Spartanian fighters simply kicked the crap out of the Valkyries most of the time.

I think that's overstating things - the samples are skewed by the focus on Olivier Poplin and Ivan Konev, who are huge aces.

[Darth Fanboy]

It may be a bit, but i cant place the exact battle but I do remember one incident where the kill ratio was so skewed in the Spartanian's favor that the Empire had to withdraw all fighters, and it might have been after Konev died. It couldn't have been all Poplan.

And that isnt to suggest Valkyrie's are useless, but rather to suggest how critical the fighters and fighter pilots of the FPA were in what success they had.

[Vympel]

It may be a bit, but i cant place the exact battle but I do remember one incident where the kill ratio was so skewed in the Spartanian's favor that the Empire had to withdraw all fighters, and it might have been after Konev died. It couldn't have been all Poplan.

And that isnt to suggest Valkyrie's are useless, but rather to suggest how critical the fighters and fighter pilots of the FPA were in what success they had.

Yeah, that was Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn, Julian vs the Wagenseil Fleet (with Wahlen Fleet showing up later, but not engaging in fighter combat).

[Darth Fanboy]

Thanks, and while that was obviously an extreme incident with the Iserlohn pilots being elite and battle hardened, I cant be the only one who feels like the Spartanians far out performed the Valkyries for one reason or another consistently. I loved their look too.

[Simon_Jester]

Can anyone think of any case where the Imperial fighters did gain the upper hand against an FPA force that both had fighters and was not totally outnumbered?

[Vympel]

Can anyone think of any case where the Imperial fighters did gain the upper hand against an FPA force that both had fighters and was not totally outnumbered?

Only thing I can think of is Battle of Vermilion, where the fighter combat appeared evenly matched until Horst Schürer (Imperial Valkyrie ace) had his Valkyries herd the Spartanians into cruiser fire, resulting in heavy losses and the death of Konev, after which the Sparatanians withdrew to their own lines. You could say it was the cruisers that decided the issue, but the Valkyrie pilots did accomplish their mission (herding them into big guns), so that’s gaining the upper hand in my book.

[Darth Fanboy]

I appreciated that scene because not only was it a good tactical move that smartly used the aggressive nature of Sherry Squadron against itself, but it brought down character shields too, albeit one of my favorites.

Strangely for me, I started out liking the Imperial characters more and right about the time of Vermilion I had completely switched to liking the Alliance characters more in spite of their losses. A well told story but I wish Yang and Reinhard could have had that second meeting, although I'm not complaining they didn't.

[Simon_Jester]

Can anyone think of any case where the Imperial fighters did gain the upper hand against an FPA force that both had fighters and was not totally outnumbered?

Only thing I can think of is Battle of Vermilion, where the fighter combat appeared evenly matched until Horst Schürer (Imperial Valkyrie ace) had his Valkyries herd the Spartanians into cruiser fire, resulting in heavy losses and the death of Konev, after which the Sparatanians withdrew to their own lines. You could say it was the cruisers that decided the issue, but the Valkyrie pilots did accomplish their mission (herding them into big guns), so that’s gaining the upper hand in my book.

It's true and respectable- but what's really key is the "evenly matched" part of the battle. We're trying to get some sense for which side's small craft win space superiority in a roughly fair fight, after all, and how big the qualitative differences are.

I can't remember- wasn't Yang's fleet heavily outnumbered at Vermillion? Wouldn't their fighters be correspondingly outnumbered?

[Vympel]

Can anyone think of any case where the Imperial fighters did gain the upper hand against an FPA force that both had fighters and was not totally outnumbered?

Only thing I can think of is Battle of Vermilion, where the fighter combat appeared evenly matched until Horst Schürer (Imperial Valkyrie ace) had his Valkyries herd the Spartanians into cruiser fire, resulting in heavy losses and the death of Konev, after which the Sparatanians withdrew to their own lines. You could say it was the cruisers that decided the issue, but the Valkyrie pilots did accomplish their mission (herding them into big guns), so that’s gaining the upper hand in my book.

It's true and respectable- but what's really key is the "evenly matched" part of the battle. We're trying to get some sense for which side's small craft win space superiority in a roughly fair fight, after all, and how big the qualitative differences are.

I can't remember- wasn't Yang's fleet heavily outnumbered at Vermillion? Wouldn't their fighters be correspondingly outnumbered?

Numbers were even at Vermilion (that was the whole point, or else Yang wouldn't have attacked), which is why I cited it and not the similar battle between the 13th Fleet and the Kempff Fleet, where Kempff (himself a former Valkyrie pilot) did the same thing, again resulting in significant losses for the Spartanian squadrons (though the 13th Fleet was winning the battle of attrition in totality).

(not including Müller's arrival, which was long after Konev's death relatively speaking)

[Vympel]

First off regarding ST Combat: which examples are we using? I checked the examples (like abandoning/retaking DS9, Chin'toka, or the last battle.) and it didn't quite strike me as being the same as LOGH. LOGH seems to rely far more on staying stationary, whilst Federation ships invariably are moving towards one another as if trying to intercept (like in trying to break past to reach DS9.) The approach seems to be something akin to 'get close to the enemy and then break apart to manuver and attack' - the ideal seems to be to surround and swamp the enemy (which is one thing that lead to the slaughter at Chin'toka) as well as to prevent the enemy from breaking away and using their high speed impules or warp drives (like the defiant did once it broke a hole through the enemy.) Given their FTL sensors and warp drive (as well as fast sublight) you would want to do that. An enemy or group of enemies breaking free of the engagement would be able ot warp away and come back in a new position and strike better coordinated, for example (which the Klingons apparently did.) And you can't just 'ignore' enemies va warp eitehr - they can detect and travel at warp too so they can pursue you to your destination, so you have to face them (or delay them) somehow (again in the retaking of DS9.)

Well I did say there were similarities, not that they were exactly the same, but its a mistake to characterize as LOGH relying far more on staying stationary - the amount of break through attacks and encirclements in LOGH battles and jockeying for position make up a pretty big chunk of the battle in the series. If one were to summarize common LOGH tactics, stand off fire begins the battles, but it doesn't necessarily end them. For a classic break through and encirclement, see the Yang Fleet vs the 13th Fleet in the Battle of Doria, or Reinhard's central breakthrough attack attempt on the 2nd Fleet at Astarte, or the continuous attempts to break through Imperial lines to attack Brunhild at Vermilion and Marr-Adetta - the list goes on

Primarily I was thinking of Sacrifice of Angels when I said that, its the battle that sticks out to me the most.

YEah. Although that would be ab it puzzling for 'reactor mass' since IIRC they have cruising endurances on the order of 140-300 hours based on the licesned sources for Imperial starships (They carry enough fuel/propellant for that long, anyhow.) Perhaps the 140 hours is 'cruising speed' and they operate at lower outputs (less propellant) than at combat levels (which consumes fuel/propellant more quickly.)

Possibly - ooh, speculation:- Fast Battleships are valuable not just for their obviously heavier forward armament but because they're increased size allows them to move quicker in battle for longer.

You really have to wonder why they bothered with the flamethrower to begin with. Given the power and range of teir energy cannons, those would have made more sense (and the liquid metal surfaces of the armour mean they can out-attrition any military force.) Giving their weapons greater reach would also have denied the enemy much in the way of safe zones.

Well, one interesting question is how well protected the Thor Hammer "generators" are (i.e. the ring of 'islands' that float up to generate the blast) - we saw in Ninth Iserlohn that ship's gunfire can and does destroy the floating gun batteries that also defend the fortress - Reuenthal's attack destroyed 200 floating guns and he lost exactly 200 ships in exchange. Not bad at all when you consider that those 200 ships included losses from the Thor Hammer.

[takemeout_totheblack]

So what's the deal with LoGH fighters? They seem to be able to inflict massive damage despite their (presumably) weaker weaponry, or are they simply super short-range cap-ship grade weapons that have been strapped to an engine? Also, licensed sources imply hardpoints to which missiles and heavier cannons can be attached, so there's even more destructive potential there.

Also, while re-watching the main series as research, I had two major revelations.
1). Most people who read X-Over fics of this type wouldn't know nearly as much about LoGH as they would have to to fully enjoy the story

2). In addition to the myriad other story possibilities that would be made available if set during the Goldenbaum Dynasty, how major would the overall impact be if Siegfried Kirchies was still alive? Hell, how different would things have turned out even if a phlebotinum-handwavium portal to another franchise hadn't conveniently opened up?

[Gunhead]

LoGH visuals are a representation of the overall action taking place so instead of fixating on a single instance or instances you have to look at the overall picture. LoGH battles can last days and as far as I can tell they routinely last several hours. If you try to cram even a small piece of a say 10 hour battle into a single 25min episode you invariably run into inconsistencies and simplifications. My personal take is this: Fighters pose a danger to a larger vessel but only if they can get in really close or in sufficient numbers. What you see in the series is the "end" effect of fighters. They've already gotten in close and inflict enough damage to destroy the enemy craft. We don't see a ratio between successful and failed attack attempts during the show and it's pretty understandable. No one is going to spend time animating stuff where nothing really happens. We only see the successes and this skews our perception into thinking it will work like this every time. This is not a problem unique to LoGH though, all shows are like this.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

LoGH visuals are a representation of the overall action taking place so instead of fixating on a single instance or instances you have to look at the overall picture. LoGH battles can last days and as far as I can tell they routinely last several hours. If you try to cram even a small piece of a say 10 hour battle into a single 25min episode you invariably run into inconsistencies and simplifications. My personal take is this: Fighters pose a danger to a larger vessel but only if they can get in really close or in sufficient numbers. What you see in the series is the "end" effect of fighters. They've already gotten in close and inflict enough damage to destroy the enemy craft. We don't see a ratio between successful and failed attack attempts during the show and it's pretty understandable. No one is going to spend time animating stuff where nothing really happens. We only see the successes and this skews our perception into thinking it will work like this every time. This is not a problem unique to LoGH though, all shows are like this.

-Gunhead

Fighters may also work in tandem with artillery, crippling or outright destroying ships weakened by cap-ship fire. That also brings to mind just how strong LoGH shields may be/how flipping insane their 'Electromagnetic Wave Interception' technology is. Even without factoring in more complex tactics and stratagems, think of all those thousands of ships firing and lobbing missiles at once, then think of the losses that are usually tallied at the end of each major battle, and then contemplate the implication that many of these battles are ~5-10 hours long on average and multiple days long for the really brutal fights. Their shields can either take a lot more punishment than the visuals imply or they're missing a lot due to ECM and other such elements.
Personally I think it's a middle ground scenario between the two, decent defensive technologies coupled with highly refined stealth/misdirection/obfuscation technology.

[Connor MacLeod]

That's why the Alliance would ally with the Feds sure, but my question was reversed, asking what would be motivations for the UFP to align with Yang, not the other way around.

If the FEds are in a serious fight they might be willing to grant them membership just to add thousands of ships to their registry. There's also alot that LOGH could probably teach them - just because they don't have the same fancy shit the Feds do doesnt mean theres nothing to learn. Hell a whole new means of travelling that is faster than warp is wortwhile all its own.

That said its nots like the Federation is all hardcore pragmatic and always 'whats in it for me.' I don't find it inconceivable they might let the FPA in simply because they asked. They're pretty laid back and inclusive. (Besides a tenet of the more recent 'vs debates' of SW vs ST would be that people from the GE would 'flock' to join the Federation because of how utopian it is, which carried the assumption that the UFP would let them in. )

This was why I suggested the Klingons, as they would most certainly be a militaristic group likely to engage in hostilities without the array of baggage that comes with using the Dominion. And post-Nemesis they are certainly in a strong position given the instability in the Romulan Empire and weakness of the Cardassians.
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As of STO, the Federation and Klingon Empire are back to being hostile with each other. As I recall the Klingons didn't exactly hesitate that much to invade Cardassian space during DS9 either, although I acknowledge that things were probably at least a little different under Gowron than with Martok as Chancellor.

How big are they, though? How many ships, how much territory, etc? DS9 era Federation at least has some merit of being mutable as far as calcs and numbers go. we've had some indication that Federation numbers can extend into the tens of thousands (bearing in mind their ships are, as a rule not pure warships, some are multi-purpose so the 'pure military' role is likely to be less.)

If he wants the rest of the DS9 crew though, including those established character dyanmics, and if he wants a Federation with the more advanced ship[s at its disposal than anything taking place long before First Contact doesn't really work does it?

That's true. (BTw so this doesn't spread out I just cut out things I either couldn't find an argument against or I agreed with. Just so we're clear I'm not trying to deliberately ignore something you brought up)

Which was what I suggested, mostly because the Federation would be fairly quick to align against the Goldenbaum Dynasty.

Another possibility is to just drop Reinhard totally. Having LOGh involved doesn't neccesarily mean having all of it, and if length or complexity is a problem cutting Reinhard out of the equation simplifies things. Especially since Reinhard's Empire generally has most of the advantages of the old Empire but few if any of its weaknesses (with fezzan and the FPA in his hands in the bargain.)

The problem I have with using the Dominion is, as I stated before, I don't see the Empire engaging in a war of aggression needlessly if the Dominion and Federation are already engaged with each other. They will let the two sides burn each other out, we have seen Reinhard's track record doing this.

With the way he had it originally plotted, yeah it wouldn't work. But of the federation powers, the Dominion is going to be the most conquest minded next to the Borg, and they're also the ones most likely to have the numbers and resources to actually threaten Reinhard's empire. As you said before, Reinhard's got alot of muscle and territory behind his New Galactic Empire - and that makes him alot harder to take than either the FPA or the old Empire. I suspect that unless one skews the numbers (firepower, defenses, etc) too much in the UFP favor (or skew LOGH away from that) you're not going to get anything remotely like a close match. Their industrial potential and ship numbers are just too intimidating.

How expanionist would you call a nation that, already in control of roughly half of known space, decides to conquer the other half? Lohengramm took Phezzan and then the Alliance after the Empire had failed to do so for hundreds of years. It doesn't matter if he wanted to or was just compelled to do it, the fact is that he did it despite being in a position to stop it.
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Uh...yeah.

The FPA were founded by political prisoners who fled the Empire and the Empire subsequently started a war of conquest and aggression that lasted generations. That the Alliance government and military leadership had corrupt figures does not exactly turn them into an atagonist the way you think. You noticed why their invasion failed, because they were stuck trying to feed everyone they had "liberated" from the Empire, and as the old saying goes no good deed goes unpunished.

The point I'm getting at is that the situations where Reinhard lead to conquest of the FPA, Fezzan, etc. aren't going to even remotely be the same things as Reinhard conquering a new, largely unknown, and generally far more peaceful enemy. The Empire and FPA had a long running war and a ton of history behind them, which to me played a huge role in why things ended up the way they did (for good or bad.) I'm not saying Reinhard is a nice guy or a good guy [That's yang], but he's also not some mustache-twirling megalomaniac (like say.. Palpatine) who feels an urge to conquer something just to flex his 'I AM EVUL' credentials. Hell, he just spent all his efforts to making an empire that was the complete opposite of the old one he served and toppled - to me that suggests he's not exactly eager to go out and spend lives, money and resources (that can be spent on improving that newly-created empire) needlessly.

And if he IS going to try conquest, I doubt military power is going to be his first option. I'm not sure he'd be underhanded enough to try playing off other factions (Romulans, Cardassians, or Klingons) off the Federation (or off each other) without reason, but that's probably more likely than 'INVADE AND DESTROY' from the get go. Diplomacy is probably the first step, at least.

Just to throw this in:

I think that up to this point in the thread the fighters have been overlooked. We know that in LoGH it is not uncommon to have fleets with upwards of 10,000 ships, and that a large Cardassian/Dominion fleet in DS9 was considered big with only 1200 ships (a number that included fighters).

Do we have confirmation that those numbers actually included fighters? I remember the battles being discussed but I never them explicitly saying 'fighters included' when the numbres are even discussed. I'm not sure this will actually mean much in terms of numbers but its worth bearing in mind.

Also I believe there was implication that the combined Dominion/cardassian/Breen fleet in season seven was 30,000, whilst the Klingons were still able to bring 1500 ships to bear in battle (how that breaks down in either case I dont know either, before you ask.) and this is fairly late in the war, when attrition should have been wearing them down.

Federation fighters, runabouts, and other smaller ships exist but I don't think the numbers are even close to what a fleet led by one of Reinhard's admirals would have. Which means that unless there is a big tech disparity between Trek shields and LoGH weapons that even the smaller and more agile Fed ships wont be able to simply outmaneuver and attack at will.

That depends on alot of factors. LOGH has an edge in the types of fleets it deploys.. thousands or tens of thousands uusally, which is far larger than ST (hundreds or maybe thousands.) And they probably have more in absolute terms (hundreds of thousands compared to the offscreen comments of tens of thousands), and that doesn't factor in that LOGH fleets are more homogenus (whereas FEderation are multipurpose types in the majority, dedicated combat craft are in the minority, and they incorporate alot of 'older' designs like the Excelsiors).

Absolute numbers won't be the decisive factor - alot of it will be dependent upon what they need those ships for and how much they can pry away from other roles (escorts, transport, defense, etc.) We do know that they have some pretty formidable fixed defenses (the Cardassians did at least, I wouldn't be surprised if other powers had them though.)

We also have to consider shipbuilding construction rates. by Licesned sources they can build Battleships (the FPA at least) in 4-6 months, a cruiser in 1-2 months. Flagships take about 1-1.5 years to build. We know from the series (roughly) that the Empire could build dedicated flagships (prototypes really) within about a year, so they're roughly the same (possibly a bit better since they're not the economic wreck the FPA was.) Odds are they're vastly faster at building than the Federation, but it has to be born in mine.

As far as fighters.. we don't really know. Fighters and runabouts aren't really 'carried' so much as they are separate small starships of their own. Shuttlecraft are carried, but not in great numbers (and arne't really outfitted for cobmat, except ones like the Delta Flyer and that isn't really applicable.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Well I did say there were similarities, not that they were exactly the same, but its a mistake to characterize as LOGH relying far more on staying stationary - the amount of break through attacks and encirclements in LOGH battles and jockeying for position make up a pretty big chunk of the battle in the series. If one were to summarize common LOGH tactics, stand off fire begins the battles, but it doesn't necessarily end them. For a classic break through and encirclement, see the Yang Fleet vs the 13th Fleet in the Battle of Doria, or Reinhard's central breakthrough attack attempt on the 2nd Fleet at Astarte, or the continuous attempts to break through Imperial lines to attack Brunhild at Vermilion and Marr-Adetta - the list goes on

Primarily I was thinking of Sacrifice of Angels when I said that, its the battle that sticks out to me the most.

Yeah but LOGH relies more on formation fighting than ST does, and it is relatively static at least some of the time. Ships might make invidiual adjustments to move. Or the entire formation may move, but we're not exactly talking the dogfighting-like 'formation flying' or fighting that ST embraces. It's also not the 'wall of battle' style fighting of say, the Honor Harringotn novels (where you have ships flying at each other in formation at some percentages of lightspeed, dropping missiles and beams at the targets as they close and presenting broadsides.)

What it boils down to is that while LOGH has the range and numbers, I'm not sure that they can keep those against Federation FTL precision (its not warp strafing, but more in lines with something like the Picard Manuver is going to be highly effective against them) and fed sublight speed/accel is going to be an asset. They can basically choose direction to attack from, the range to attack from, and the angle to attack from, and they can engage as long as they like before pulling back and escaping. And this isn't even particularily innovative or wankish of ST tactics, since I'm simply basing it off the existence of stuff like AMRE and the aforemetioned picard manuver.

There's alos things like 'how resistant are the LOGH ships to nukes' if we go with some of the higher photorp yields (like tens of megatons) a few dozen photorps per ship going off in a LOGH formation is not likely to be... pleasant. even if it doesn't demolishs ships outright (crippling engines or destroying guns would work just as well.)

The nearest I can come up for ST combat fighting is that they seek to encircle/envelop enemies and direct as much raw firepower as they can on them, as well as avoiding long range (either due to targeting/ECM, speed issues, recoil, effectiveness of shields or power draw.) We've seen the 'encirclment' at other cases like Wolf 359, when the Enterprise has been confronted by other enemies (I think the Romulans tried to outnumber them once, who were then outnumberd by the Klingons.) Warp drive may or may not be used for repositioning and attacking from fresh angles (like the Klingons flanking the dominion) but mobility DOES typically play more of a role in that than staying still does. Formations may be useful for organizing large numbers of ships, providing effective concentrations of fire, or they may have some sort of synergistic effect (groups can support each other better in formation. Can they overlap shields?)

As an aside to that, I'd note that the Promethus's silly 'multi-vector attack mode' was pretty much the same approach.

Possibly - ooh, speculation:- Fast Battleships are valuable not just for their obviously heavier forward armament but because they're increased size allows them to move quicker in battle for longer.

Probably, although they might also have a higher usage of propellant due to mobility. They're likely to have more absolute propelllant mass due to being bigger, but whether their tanks are proportionally a larger percentage of internal volume.. donno. I've been trying to isolate where the tanks are and how much internal space they take up (like on FPA battleships) but its hard to read the diagrams on the wiki.

We do know that the velocity the engine shoots the propellant out at seems relatively fixed, as increasing mobility in ship design usually means either reducing mass or increasing propellant usage (which cuts down on endurance) based on some of the licsensed commentary on FPA flagship design. One possible explanation is that they simply have different 'maximum' accelerations - one nonmilitary, one military max, and one 'afterburn' max which is basically with zero safety margins and not caring about fuel conservation. Thus single digit gees may be typical 'nonmilitary' acceleration and standard cruise accelerations, double digit gees might be maximum effective acceleration (with safety margins and without excessive fuel burn) and hundred+ gees might be considered maximum military power/afterburn (where they care less about fuel efficiency than just getting the fuck where they want to. It would also explain why they never bother using tens or hundreds of gees to simply 'dodge' around these millions of km weapons bombardments even though they're theoretically capalbe of doing so.)

Well, one interesting question is how well protected the Thor Hammer "generators" are (i.e. the ring of 'islands' that float up to generate the blast) - we saw in Ninth Iserlohn that ship's gunfire can and does destroy the floating gun batteries that also defend the fortress - Reuenthal's attack destroyed 200 floating guns and he lost exactly 200 ships in exchange. Not bad at all when you consider that those 200 ships included losses from the Thor Hammer.

I can't see why they can't just make a bigger gun turret/emitter (longer barrel) if they can do that with the Thor hammer to begin with. Hell even using EPB cannon would greatly increase their reach (and abiliy to threaten enemies.

Its not a really big deal though, 'less than optimal' usage of technology or ship design is one of the thematic traits of LOGH.

*******

So what's the deal with LoGH fighters? They seem to be able to inflict massive damage despite their (presumably) weaker weaponry, or are they simply super short-range cap-ship grade weapons that have been strapped to an engine? Also, licensed sources imply hardpoints to which missiles and heavier cannons can be attached, so there's even more destructive potential there.

LOGH uses particle beams, which are insanely penetrating weapons compared to lasers. Fighters use them in an especially cutting/penetrating role as well: compare battleship fire vs fighters - battleship beams will blow gaping holes in the hull whilst fighters will make narrower, less explosive cuts. The reason why they can be equally destructive is simple: Starships are not inert targets. They have reactors, capacitors, munitions, etc. all of which can be made to release large quantities of energy if they are damaged/destroyed.

Range and the nature of shielding is also a factor. In LOGH shields are a countermeasure like EW, and its meant to prevent a ship from taking direct hits (or hopefully degrading hits enough that it doesn't strike deep or hit anything vital.) because if they do take hits they will invariably take damage that may cripple or destroy the ships. We know that shields can be affected by the range of weapons fire (Vympel commented on an instance of 20 light seconds vs 40 light seconds I believe in his battles thread, which shows shields have a easier time deflecting long range fire.) Shields may or may not be able to stop phyiscal projectiles as well as beams (there's a big question mark regarding fighters, missiles, railgun hits, etc. Certainly in the case of Julian's fighter it was able to get literally feet from teh hull without being interdicted, so they may very well slip under shields.)

That's something that also has to be borne in mind when discussing ship battle. Star Trek ships tend to be more 'brute force' in this regard - shields are designed as an extra layer of armor (or hit points) which generally have to be depleted before the ship itself can be hit (there's some issue with 'bleedthrough' and there's the whole 'optimization' issue that can enhance protection against certian threats or allow others to weaken/neutralize shields entirely.) This may actually be an advantage, since LOGH shields don't need to be knocked down to be penetrated and kill a ship.

This is also where numbers for firepower, shielding, etc. have to be hashed out for both sides, because if you intend to put UFP against Reinhard they're probably going to need at least a defensive edge (strong shields) to offset numerical inferiority, if not the same with weapons. It's not an irreconcilable problem, because calcs for either universe are neither precise nor fixed, and there's lots of 'wiggle room' to make things alot more even if you want to have interesting battles instead of a totally one-sided curbstomp. Firepower though is only going to be part of the overall combat dynamic you figure on the ST or LOGH sides have (and just how much technobabble/technowank you intend to inject in these stories.)

there's also the issue of where the 'flagships' or proposed 'next generation' batlteship/upgrades may lay here. If they incorporate some of the Brunhild tech (like the armor) into ship designs on the Empire side, things could become harder for the Federation.

Fighters may also work in tandem with artillery, crippling or outright destroying ships weakened by cap-ship fire. That also brings to mind just how strong LoGH shields may be/how flipping insane their 'Electromagnetic Wave Interception' technology is.

Its not just ECM that's fucking things up. Its 'natural stellar phenomena' which basically means 'space weather.' Depending on how charitable you want to be (and I dont think ST has the right to throw stones regarding fucked up sensors) this could be a pretty hilarious messup (but then again space weather in LOGH has proven tob e ridiculously literal as well.)

[Darth Fanboy]

If the FEds are in a serious fight they might be willing to grant them membership just to add thousands of ships to their registry. There's also alot that LOGH could probably teach them - just because they don't have the same fancy shit the Feds do doesnt mean theres nothing to learn. Hell a whole new means of travelling that is faster than warp is wortwhile all its own.

That said its nots like the Federation is all hardcore pragmatic and always 'whats in it for me.' I don't find it inconceivable they might let the FPA in simply because they asked. They're pretty laid back and inclusive. (Besides a tenet of the more recent 'vs debates' of SW vs ST would be that people from the GE would 'flock' to join the Federation because of how utopian it is, which carried the assumption that the UFP would let them in. )

Exactly.

But the reason i'm having Superlongname answer this question for himself is so that he can have a plot to his fanfic better than "unreadable clusterfuck".

How big are they, though? How many ships, how much territory, etc? DS9 era Federation at least has some merit of being mutable as far as calcs and numbers go. we've had some indication that Federation numbers can extend into the tens of thousands (bearing in mind their ships are, as a rule not pure warships, some are multi-purpose so the 'pure military' role is likely to be less.)

I don't know, I am not all that well versed in Trek beyond being a casual fan which is why almost every written depiction of them I have done is based on the precept that they all have crippling sexual fetishes.

Another possibility is to just drop Reinhard totally. Having LOGh involved doesn't neccesarily mean having all of it, and if length or complexity is a problem cutting Reinhard out of the equation simplifies things. Especially since Reinhard's Empire generally has most of the advantages of the old Empire but few if any of its weaknesses (with fezzan and the FPA in his hands in the bargain.)

Which is true, but I have the feeling that Takemeouttotheballgame reeeeaallllllllly wants to write for Reinhardo.

With the way he had it originally plotted, yeah it wouldn't work. But of the federation powers, the Dominion is going to be the most conquest minded next to the Borg, and they're also the ones most likely to have the numbers and resources to actually threaten Reinhard's empire. As you said before, Reinhard's got alot of muscle and territory behind his New Galactic Empire - and that makes him alot harder to take than either the FPA or the old Empire. I suspect that unless one skews the numbers (firepower, defenses, etc) too much in the UFP favor (or skew LOGH away from that) you're not going to get anything remotely like a close match. Their industrial potential and ship numbers are just too intimidating.

Well we are getting into matters of opinion now so I won't debate this point. However from my personal POV if the Dominion is in play then they will be fighting the Fed Alliance no matter what, and we already know the Feds win. I just do not see Reinhard fighting the Dominion at all unless the Dominion somehow defeats the Federation Alliance, but then the DS9 dynamic I think the author is going for ends up gone or changed beyond what he is seeking.

I mean there are a lot of ways around it, but the scenario as depicted during the Dominion War doesn't seem to fit naturally without some handwaving, which is funny because we already have a statement from Takemeoutbacksteakhouse that says he doesn't want to just handwave Sisko Back and have B4 turn into Data post Nemesis.

The point I'm getting at is that the situations where Reinhard lead to conquest of the FPA, Fezzan, etc. aren't going to even remotely be the same things as Reinhard conquering a new, largely unknown, and generally far more peaceful enemy. The Empire and FPA had a long running war and a ton of history behind them, which to me played a huge role in why things ended up the way they did (for good or bad.) I'm not saying Reinhard is a nice guy or a good guy [That's yang], but he's also not some mustache-twirling megalomaniac (like say.. Palpatine) who feels an urge to conquer something just to flex his 'I AM EVUL' credentials. Hell, he just spent all his efforts to making an empire that was the complete opposite of the old one he served and toppled - to me that suggests he's not exactly eager to go out and spend lives, money and resources (that can be spent on improving that newly-created empire) needlessly.

Except...he did just that. Clearly his Empire is a better place to live in, so long as you subject yourself to Imperial rule. But how many people ended up dead to satisfy his ego? He ald already usurped the Goldenbaums, feed his sister, and had total control of the Empire, if he was really a good person he would have stopped there and not continued with a war he had completely in hand to begin with.

And if he IS going to try conquest, I doubt military power is going to be his first option. I'm not sure he'd be underhanded enough to try playing off other factions (Romulans, Cardassians, or Klingons) off the Federation (or off each other) without reason, but that's probably more likely than 'INVADE AND DESTROY' from the get go. Diplomacy is probably the first step, at least.

Well yeah, that's why i've been saying "Reinhard lets Federation and Dominion wear each other out", there's clear precendent for that.

Do we have confirmation that those numbers actually included fighters? I remember the battles being discussed but I never them explicitly saying 'fighters included' when the numbres are even discussed. I'm not sure this will actually mean much in terms of numbers but its worth bearing in mind.

Wong quotes it here in a review of "Sacrifice of Angels" but I have not found anything to verify it despite remembering that quote in an episode somewhere, so I withdraw that line until I can find the full episode to do that.

As far as fighters.. we don't really know. Fighters and runabouts aren't really 'carried' so much as they are separate small starships of their own. Shuttlecraft are carried, but not in great numbers (and arne't really outfitted for cobmat, except ones like the Delta Flyer and that isn't really applicable.)

Didn't the Akira-class carry fighters?