Cowl tries to argue B5 weaponry

[Connor MacLeod]

I'll also note that its likely that the EA and Narns had their own 'medium' warships as well. In 'walkabout' they discussed that there were at max 10 surviving narn warships - a mix of dreadnoughts, heavy cruisers and 'medium warships'. In 'In the beginning' We saw a small EA ship fighting against a Minbari fleet (which is often identified as an 'Olympus class corvette'.) One of the things about B5 is that alot of stuff gets mentioned that we never seen onscreen budget and CGI limitations clearly skew what we can perceive as 'fleet mixes'. Again its one of those little details that can lead to variaions that make B5 combat alot less 'formalized' than SW style slugfests.

[Stark]

Is the EA one the rectangular thing with the long engines along it? I think it's seen again, but nt as often as the Hyperion etc. I got the impression they were very old, and they seem to retain or store ships for aaaaages.

[Connor MacLeod]

The one we saw in the GROPOS episode with the troops who show up on B5? Yeah that ugly looking thing that basically looks like the artist got too excited with the 'copy guns' command. They call it the Nova Dreadnought, and I always thought it was a ridiciulously overgunned design. We see them a few times in 'in the beginning' as well, they're supposed to be an older design (and yet, have more firepower than Omegas.... YAy RPG rules?)

Mind you, the Omega is not much different, just with fewer guns each packing only a single barrel. They have someting like 2 heavy guns in front, 2 in back, and something like 12 guns along the flanks (4 in front and 8 in back. I guess the ship is optimized for running away?)

[Stofsk]

The Nova having more guns than the Omega actually does make sense, since the latter has the spin habitat taking up a large portion of the ship's volume and mass.

[Stark]

I figured those were pre-interceptor designs; those big guns don't look practical for defense and might indicate he ships are very vulnerable on the flanks, where the Omegas have their smaller guns.

[Connor MacLeod]

Stofsk: Sort of, except not all the guns really have clear fields of fire. Not much point having all those guns if some of them can't even fire past each other





The Omega has similar issues, because some of the guns behind the rotating section can also point forward (and usually do)

Omega Class Destroyer

[Stark]

They might not had been intended to show a particular face to the target; if they were carriers and long-range pew pews all those guns let hem manouvre at will while till having a heap of guns bearing. The big Centauri ship has a similar problem with its upper and lower gun arrangement.

[Connor MacLeod]

Could be. I'm a bit biased I suppose because I never really did like EA warship design as a rule - except maybe the Hyperions. The Narn and Centauri had better looking (and in my mind better designed) ships.

Especially the Centauri.

Although I'll admit starfuries are kinda cool.

[Stofsk]

I liked the Hyperion too. Something about it seemed, I dunno - like what a Space Navy ship from Space America in the 23rd Century would look like. The Omega is too obviously a rip-off of the Leonov. I also appreciated the colouring scheme - light grey with blue paint here and there, like Babylon 5 and Earth Force One. The Omegas on the other hand are dark grey and look like shit.

Starfuries are cool. That is a homage (obviously inspired by X-wings) which worked IMO.

[Crazedwraith]

Partially X-Wings, but mostly Gunstars from 'The Last Starfighter'.

[Themightytom]

Does Tom know he appears to be talking to himself y/n? The only person who says the Centari shouldn't have built smaller, more agile ships because they're powerful is him. I guess I haven't huffed enough paint to see what his point is.

Stark I never said the Centauri shouldn't have built smaller more agile ships, maybe if you stopped huffing paint and dialed up your adderall you'd figure that out.

The problem with clips like that is the situation is really importan in B5; it doesn't take that many hits to kill something, so surprise, alertness, position etc can easily turn a battle. The Centauri seem to be all about volume of fire, which gives them advantages, but they dont seem to use beams or has particularly good arcs of fire.

No shit! Welcome to a page ago. That is also why the Centauri can't outright curbstomp the Narn just because they have more advanced ships. Bigger ships make sense for a power that is expanding, or controls a truly vast territory, such as the Mimbari Federation, smaller ones make sense for one maintaining it's boundaries. The Centauri aren't in a mode of aggressive expansion when they go to war with the Narn, their fleet is designed to maintain borders. Smaller ships = shorter deployment time, why do you think the Narn were going after a supply depot to slow the Centauri advance?

I'll also note that its likely that the EA and Narns had their own 'medium' warships as well. In 'walkabout' they discussed that there were at max 10 surviving narn warships - a mix of dreadnoughts, heavy cruisers and 'medium warships'. In 'In the beginning' We saw a small EA ship fighting against a Minbari fleet (which is often identified as an 'Olympus class corvette'.) One of the things about B5 is that alot of stuff gets mentioned that we never seen onscreen budget and CGI limitations clearly skew what we can perceive as 'fleet mixes'. Again its one of those little details that can lead to variaions that make B5 combat alot less 'formalized' than SW style slugfests.

That being said, if we don't break the fourth wall and include the CGI and budget limitations, the reason we see more Centauri mid size cruisers is probably because they make up a higher volume of it's fleet, OR... less likely in my mind, B5 is in a region closer to the center of Centauri space, or in an area they aren't particularly concerned with maintaining a stronger presence in. I doubt that since it's supposed to be neutral territory and based on the behavior of the races in B5 verse, they probably would compete over neutral territory.

The one attacking the Narn ship at B5 would have made sense if they were using the smaller, more numerous ships to search for a renegade Narn cruiser., and one happened to be the closest to babylon 5

[jollyreaper]

I think the question of size relating to long deployments is valid. A missile boat can carry the same harpoons as a destroyer but if I had to deploy from the continental US to the Persian Gulf I would prefer to do so on a destroyer. As a defender in the Gulf, a missile boat might be all the more navy I need.

In a wet navy size also means a ship can better handle rough seas. That's not the case in space but larger ships would have more amenities that would make long cruises tolerable.

[Thanas]

I find it hilarious how Tom backpedaled from "The centauri would not have been able to destroy the Narn on their own" to his current position.

Also, small ships per se are not an example of shorter deployment times. They might just as well have smaller crews in relation to the larger vessels and have more automated system. Given that they do not have to support a fighter wing that seems to be the case.

[andrewgpaul]

In a wet navy size also means a ship can better handle rough seas. That's not the case in space but larger ships would have more amenities that would make long cruises tolerable.

I know using material from the games is frowned upon, but that's precisely the reason given for the Omega replacing the Nova - the spin habitat meant it could spend a much longer time away from its bases before affecting the crew's health.

There may also have been something about weapon recharge/cooldown rates in the reasons given for the Nova's profusion of weaponry.

[jollyreaper]

Ultimately jms was never about the tech or science so it's really best not to look too closely at ships and tactics. He was about the politics and the relationships. Grey 17 steam gun, minbari genetics, concentrating on that is unrewarding. Love the characters.

[Themightytom]

I find it hilarious how Tom backpedaled from "The centauri would not have been able to destroy the Narn on their own" to his current position.

Also, small ships per se are not an example of shorter deployment times. They might just as well have smaller crews in relation to the larger vessels and have more automated system. Given that they do not have to support a fighter wing that seems to be the case.

Say whaaaa? I still don't think they could, but for political reasons rather than the advancement of their ships. Every race has it's foil in B5 verse and the Centauri had the Narn, they balance each other out until I don't know THE SHADOWS show up and screw up the equation?

[Batman]

Which is why the Centauri totally hadn't already conquered the Narn once before the series even started. Oh wait. And how in Valen's name do the Shadows figure into the political equation? At the time, virtually nobody knew they were involved so whatever political repercussions resulting from the Centauri taking down the Narn would have applied full force anyway. The Shadows didn't do beans militarily other than protecting that supply depot and they couldn't be part of the political game because nobody knew they were a player. As far as most everybody was concerned, the Centauri conquered the Narn all by their lonesome-again.

[Themightytom]

Which is why the Centauri totally hadn't already conquered the Narn once before the series even started. Oh wait. And how in Valen's name do the Shadows figure into the political equation? At the time, virtually nobody knew they were involved so whatever political repercussions resulting from the Centauri taking down the Narn would have applied full force anyway. The Shadows didn't do beans militarily other than protecting that supply depot and they couldn't be part of the political game because nobody knew they were a player. As far as most everybody was concerned, the Centauri conquered the Narn all by their lonesome-again.

Narn more recently won it's independence from the Centauri, and then reverse engineered the technology they left behind. They have a slightly better chance against the Centauri with space ships and trading partners, than as primitive farmers, wouldn't you say?

...and were you listening to the dialogue in the show or just watching the pretty lights, , the Shadows were implicated in everything from the assassination of President Santiago by Clark to the signing of the nonagression pact between Earth and the Centauri. The non aggression pact that let them get away scott free with shooting at Babylon 5. The Shadows also directly influenced Centauri politics, in solving that political dilemma for them that Quadrant 37 represented, which literally made the war happen. Did you forget the Emperor was on the verge of apologizing to the Narn when he died, and quadrant 37 was attacked?

His son was assassinated by Refa, and he and Mollari sponsored Cartagia, um remind me what was Mollari before the Shadows catapulted him to prominence? Nobody? He SAID this to Vir? Who else was Morden approaching? Refa? They put a pro war Emperor on the throne. The Shadows did a lot BECAUSE nobody knew who they were. They worked through intermediaries.

[Thanas]

All of this simply says that the Centauri were unwilling to defeat the Narn. Not that they were unable to defeat the Narn (or the EA). Which was the original contention of Cowl and you in this thread.

If the above was your point, congrats, you just spent hours arguing against a point nobody was disagreeing with.

[Batman]

Narn more recently won it's independence from the Centauri, and then reverse engineered the technology they left behind. They have a slightly better chance against the Centauri with space ships and trading partners, than as primitive farmers, wouldn't you say?

...You seriously think the went from an agrarian society to interstellar space power in a matter of decades by reverse engineering Centauri technology?
You're even more delusional than I thought.

SNIPPY useless drivel

The point, which obviously completely flew over your head, was that nobody batted an eye at the Centauri trouncing the Narns. Which would have been the case if that had been unexpected. All the Shadows did was make the EA not give a damn, at no point was it indicated that they twisted the EA's (or anybody else's) perceptions of Centauri military capabilities. Which, to anybody sane, means that the Centauri kicking the Narns in the teeth didn't come as much of a surprise.

[Stark]

Sorry I have to lol. Expansion = must have bigger ships! LAW OF PHYSICS! Design philosophies and tactical niches bow before Tom's fanfic. :v

[Connor MacLeod]

Being able to defeat the Narn says nothing of the costs it might incur - loss of life, wealth, other resources - or the reactions of the international community. Any one of those (or a combination of the above) can explain why the Centauri might be reluctant to engage in war. Just because they have an edge against hte Narns doesn't mean beating them would be a cakewalk.

[Stark]

The greater oversight or lower general level of conflict certainly seemed to limit their options. Once they were convinced they could have a short, successful war and the emperor died, things chnaged.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah. I always got the impression that part of the reason that Londo dealt with Morden and the Shadows was to provide the push the Centauri needed to become all imperialist again. The Republic prior to the shadow war was pretty static - stuck in its past, lacking any drive or ambition to expand or conquer.

Hell, the fact that the Shadows considered the Centauri viable (useful) allies to begin with tends to argue they had some potential as a militant power. And we saw quite a bit in the series (and even in the spinoff novels) that the Centauri had quite a bit of military potential left in them, despite being in 'decline.'

[Thanas]

Is there actually any evidence the Centauri are in decline? Aside from the Narn issue they still seem to expand into contact with other races (see Earth) and I have no doubt they still use their clout against other races.

Meanwhile, they are still producing ships capable of outmatching all other designs (except for the Minbari) and in the novels build large fleets.