Prototype and Saints Row

[Connor MacLeod]

Anyway in Saints Row cutscenes actually match the gameplay, I don't see why we can't take feats displayed in game and in cutscenes if that is the only thing we have and there isn't any conflict between them. As for Saints Flow considering they have the tech to create zombies and mind control talking octopi Saints Flow is actually sensible. If its because you think its silly you have to realize most games, movies, etc. ..aren't all that realistic take WH40k for example, they got space orks that can make superfast tanks by painting it red,

'superfast' is incredibly vague. Try again.

Orks can even continue to fire their guns even without any actual ammunition.

Barring energy weapons they have I've never heard of this either. Source?

Spacemarines that breathe in space,

New one to me. WHere's your source?

guardsmen can charge lasguns by placing the battery in a fire

You do realize that there are technologies that allow you to charge things by light and heat right? Any solar powered calculator can be powered by sunlight or indoor light (or fire light), and there are theoretical cell phones that could be recharged on body heat (I think there are even research into electronics that can be powered off the human body.)

You might not get OMFGHUGE yields (EG Megajoule heat rays) from such methods, but its not impossible to have a lasweapon charged that way. The only question mark is in the scale of implementation.

Leman Russ tanks can be fueled with wood

Aaron noted that Wood gas generators actually exist. I believe Sea Skimmer even noted its possible for modern tanks to run on biofuels or similar.

psychic powers in existence and just a whole laundry list of general silliness.

So basically your entire argument is 'sci fi is silly, so we either take it all seriously or we don't take it seriously at all?' I smell a false dilemma here.

[Stark]

It doesn't address the inherent forces that limit gameplay and why treating them as a 'documentary' is not always a useful or simple approach.

But he's again just arguing method instead of his actual scenario. Is anything in Saints Row a threat to the black light virus? Probably not, possibly the VTOLs. Jokes like Saints Flow are largely irrelevant unless your 'analysis' just devolves to who has the shorter health regen timer.

[Lord Revan]

Spacemarines that breathe in space,

New one to me. WHere's your source?

I think he might be refering to the battle where the Ultramarines primarch got stuck outside his ship helmetless while fighting the Word Bearers during the herecy.

I could be mistaken though.

[gamer]

It doesn't address the inherent forces that limit gameplay and why treating them as a 'documentary' is not always a useful or simple approach.

But he's again just arguing method instead of his actual scenario. Is anything in Saints Row a threat to the black light virus? Probably not, possibly the VTOLs. Jokes like Saints Flow are largely irrelevant unless your 'analysis' just devolves to who has the shorter health regen timer.

The Saints need to survive, Saints gang members can probably handle themselves against the common infected, though handling the Walkers might be problematic. Hunters, Hydras, and other mutants shouldn't be too much of a problem with their Crusader tanks (these are equipped with high powered laser guns and railguns making them more capable than M1A2 Abrams tanks), VTOLS, and various gunships. The thing to do would not be rushing to the Red Zone to get slaughtered but instead a smarter strategy would probably be to hold up in the Green Zone and try to make sure there is no way infected can travel from the Red or Yellow zone into the Green Zone island so basically help Blackwatch do their job. Things get more complicated if Blackwatch decide to attack them as well but they should be able to resist Blackwatch with everything on their side that they have like superior armor and weaponry, a super hacker and other things at their disposal. The Boss being the superhuman that he/she is as usual would be having fun doing the most difficult tasks that may be required in keeping the Green Zone safe. If possible the Boss could try to ally with Heller and assist him in return for his assistance in their survival though I don't know how willing Heller would be to accept their offer. Getting off the island is the most difficult part though they should be able to survive long enough for Heller to kill Mercer in my opinion.

As for Saints Flow and other more fantastic things in the Saints arsenal I really don't see why that is just a game mechanic their drink does seem to provide superhuman powers to those that drink it for a short period of time even in a commercial cutscene Saints Flow does the same thing.

[gamer]

Anyway in Saints Row cutscenes actually match the gameplay, I don't see why we can't take feats displayed in game and in cutscenes if that is the only thing we have and there isn't any conflict between them. As for Saints Flow considering they have the tech to create zombies and mind control talking octopi Saints Flow is actually sensible. If its because you think its silly you have to realize most games, movies, etc. ..aren't all that realistic take WH40k for example, they got space orks that can make superfast tanks by painting it red,

'superfast' is incredibly vague. Try again.

Orks can even continue to fire their guns even without any actual ammunition.

Barring energy weapons they have I've never heard of this either. Source?

Spacemarines that breathe in space,

New one to me. WHere's your source?

guardsmen can charge lasguns by placing the battery in a fire

You do realize that there are technologies that allow you to charge things by light and heat right? Any solar powered calculator can be powered by sunlight or indoor light (or fire light), and there are theoretical cell phones that could be recharged on body heat (I think there are even research into electronics that can be powered off the human body.)

You might not get OMFGHUGE yields (EG Megajoule heat rays) from such methods, but its not impossible to have a lasweapon charged that way. The only question mark is in the scale of implementation.

Leman Russ tanks can be fueled with wood

Aaron noted that Wood gas generators actually exist. I believe Sea Skimmer even noted its possible for modern tanks to run on biofuels or similar.

psychic powers in existence and just a whole laundry list of general silliness.

So basically your entire argument is 'sci fi is silly, so we either take it all seriously or we don't take it seriously at all?' I smell a false dilemma here.

WH40k is not exactly the hardest scifi material you will ever come across but people always try to analyze it is the point I was making. As for the Orks its canon that the Orks have the WAAAGH! assissting them (think something like an ultra-watered down version of Spiral Power from Gurren Lagann) with the WAAAGH nearly anything becomes possible if they have enough boyz even blatant violations of physics like "red makes things go fastah". The ability to produce tech that normally would never work but somehow WAAAGH energies sustain it, it is said that most of the things the Orks create can't even be used by other races as beings like humans can't produce a WAAAGH! field so shooters all of a sudden have to obey physical laws and stop functioning. Most of things about the Orks really don't make sense but they are supposed to be the comic relief in the grim dark galaxy of 40k. The Imperium while not Ork level silly aren't exactly realistic I could go on and on but just the simple fact space marines exist isn't realistic, how is a man with a completely fused ribcage and two hearts going to function, let alone outperform humans. How is a lasgun going to blow heads off if it only needs a camp fire to charge its batteries? I hope you realize campfires don't have that much energy in them. Yes I realize its possible to have an engine powered by wood, but do you really think such an engine could have the power to move a tank, the way the Leman Russ is described it can use essentially anything that can burn as fuel, coal, wood, gasoline, whatever if it burns it works, this isn't that unrealistic its not like necron gauss beams or Titans. The only "realistic" faction in WH40k is the Tau even then some of their stuff isn't all that realistic like Tau Broadside railguns overpenetrating Leman Russ tanks and somehow sucking the crew out of the hole . If WH40k had to obey physical laws most of their tech wouldn't even function.

No one cares about realism instead the question isn't is it realistic but can X really do Y and then looking into the available information. If we just have gameplay and cutscenes we have to use gameplay and cutscenes though cutscenes should be higher canon than gameplay. If we have just gameplay but we also have an official novel, the official novel should be higher canon.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

On the "recharge lasgun power packs by throwing them in the fire" thing. You realize that's not an instantaneous thing, right? Its not "two seconds in the fire, lasgun's fully charged," its more like "leave it in the fire overnight so you can shoot tomorow." Or at least, that's how I understand it.

[Xess]

How is a lasgun going to blow heads off if it only needs a camp fire to charge its batteries? I hope you realize campfires don't have that much energy in them.

Since a lasweapon doesn't need more than a modern day bullet's energy to kill someone, that is a few kilojoules a shot, campfires actually do have that much energy in them. Any campfire that can boil a pot of water for say tea or coffee has enough energy to charge a lasgun power pack. Say 1 liter of water starting at 20 degrees Celsius, that would require about 300 kilojoules to be raised to 100 degrees. At 10 kilojoules a shot that's 30 shots, and it is of course not the full output of a campfire.

[Connor MacLeod]

WH40k is not exactly the hardest scifi material you will ever come across but people always try to analyze it is the point I was making.

People like me you mean? OH NO I'M WASTING MY TIME WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME?

Dammit Aaron you're supposed to tell me this shit!

As for the Orks its canon that the Orks have the WAAAGH! assissting them (think something like an ultra-watered down version of Spiral Power from Gurren Lagann) with the WAAAGH nearly anything becomes possible if they have enough boyz even blatant violations of physics like "red makes things go fastah".

if its 'canon' then you can provide the source and quotes for your allegation. Otherwise (I'm sure) its just your interpretation of how things work, and interpretation and fact are not the same.

The ability to produce tech that normally would never work but somehow WAAAGH energies sustain it, it is said that most of the things the Orks create can't even be used by other races as beings like humans can't produce a WAAAGH! field so shooters all of a sudden have to obey physical laws and stop functioning.

Actually Ork weapons have been used by humans before without problem. One example is from the Cain novel 'Death or Glory' I believe. So I guess you're Shit out of Luck there!

Most of things about the Orks really don't make sense but they are supposed to be the comic relief in the grim dark galaxy of 40k. The Imperium while not Ork level silly aren't exactly realistic I could go on and on but just the simple fact space marines exist isn't realistic, how is a man with a completely fused ribcage and two hearts going to function, let alone outperform humans.

I love how you try to use 'stuff is science fiction' to justify some of your more bizarre approaches to things. Apparently by you THERE ARE NO STANDARDS and how dare we try to hold you to anything like a standard. LEt's not forget that you have tried doing 'calcs' and analysis of oyur own, so this actually comes across as a rather pathetic sort of backpedaling.

Man, didn't Stark take you to task in the last thread for 'consistency?' in your argument? It seems like you chose to ignore that too.

How is a lasgun going to blow heads off if it only needs a camp fire to charge its batteries?

Well the obvious thing is 'blow a head off' depends on how you interpret it and how the lasgun works. It oculd mean exploding the entire head, or just reducing the top half (or 2/3) of the head to splinters, or whatever. It could even depend on the number of shots or the power settings. Based on what all I could find, if you go with a pulsed laser train like Luke Campbell notes (ideally a single pulse for an unarmored target) you could get away with blowing apart a head with maybe 10-15 kj of energy depending on parameters - about equal to the KE in a .50 BMG round. For comparison, this is the size of the permanant cavity a .308 Winchester can make in ballistic gelatin (~4 kj). I could be wrong, but Sea Skimmer or Aaron (or anyone else with military or firearm experience reading this) can probably confirm or deny my assessment. For a 50-60 shot lasgun and a 12 hour recharge time (overnight) in the campfire, which is what FFG implies, you only need the power pack to absorb 10-15 watts of usable power for a 50-60 shot lasgun.

Frankly I love how you just declare IT CAN'T WORK without even doing the math either to actually be sure of that. OH NO ITS THE CHEWBACCA DEFENSE!

I hope you realize campfires don't have that much energy in them.

Have you ever actually been around a campfire? Frankly I don't think you even begin to grasp what the fuck you're talking about. Here's a hint. Wood has quite a bit of energy in it (~15 MJ per kg on average IIRC, although it can vary somewhat according to the wood) Even a fraction of that spread out over hours is a TREMENDOUS amount of energy.

Yes I realize its possible to have an engine powered by wood, but do you really think such an engine could have the power to move a tank, the way the Leman Russ is described it can use essentially anything that can burn as fuel, coal, wood, gasoline, whatever if it burns it works, this isn't that unrealistic its not like necron gauss beams or Titans.

Yes, actually I do. If you bothered reading the link I provided Wood gas actually compares quite favorably to regular gasoline. Moreover Sea Skimmer mentions running an Abrams on Wood Gas here. I'm more inclined to trust his word on it than you, particularily given your penchant to make grand claims without backing them up.

The only "realistic" faction in WH40k is the Tau even then some of their stuff isn't all that realistic like Tau Broadside railguns overpenetrating Leman Russ tanks and somehow sucking the crew out of the hole . If WH40k had to obey physical laws most of their tech wouldn't even function.

I like how you use 'realistic' with the tau faction even though they're the ones with plasma railguns and antigravity vehicles and the Imperium is the one who usually uses the tracked vehicles.

No one cares about realism instead the question isn't is it realistic but can X really do Y and then looking into the available information. If we just have gameplay and cutscenes we have to use gameplay and cutscenes though cutscenes should be higher canon than gameplay. If we have just gameplay but we also have an official novel, the official novel should be higher canon.

You have a remarkably retarded way of looking at things. The fact that you think this is the ABSOLUTELY CORRECT way to analyze all of fiction apparently is even more hilarious. And then you cite this in the same breath you claim 'no one cares about realism', which is quite obviously just an excuse for oyu not to back up your claims or be internally consistent in your arguments. TL;DR more backpedaling.

By the way I like how you once again completely ignore what you don't like to go off on some other tangent. I asked oyu for proof, and I want that proof, not waffling. Like that whole 'Space Marines breathing in space' thing. You have this real gift for ignoring things you don't want to address, don't you?

[Connor MacLeod]

Since a lasweapon doesn't need more than a modern day bullet's energy to kill someone, that is a few kilojoules a shot, campfires actually do have that much energy in them. Any campfire that can boil a pot of water for say tea or coffee has enough energy to charge a lasgun power pack. Say 1 liter of water starting at 20 degrees Celsius, that would require about 300 kilojoules to be raised to 100 degrees. At 10 kilojoules a shot that's 30 shots, and it is of course not the full output of a campfire.

Damn that's a good point. I wish I'd thought of that. Boiling anything really!

Mind if I steal this idea?

PS: HOW DARE YOU USE REALISM!

[Aaron MkII]

On the "recharge lasgun power packs by throwing them in the fire" thing. You realize that's not an instantaneous thing, right? Its not "two seconds in the fire, lasgun's fully charged," its more like "leave it in the fire overnight so you can shoot tomorow." Or at least, that's how I understand it.

That's exactly how it works.

Conner man, your wasting your time.

[Connor MacLeod]

Conner man, your wasting your time.

Damn. Okay well I'm going to go ask DAlton do delete all those threads I've done and I'll go burn all my 40K books. man YEARS ruined. I wish someone like gamer had come along sooner and woke me up to the realities of these things.

[Lord Revan]

all this silliness aside, I did point out an incident that might considered being space marine breathing in space if you squint really hard (oh and then there's the Khorne berserkers which I forgot but...).

[Stark]

Guys he's using that Saints Flow ad as evidence for why drinking an energy drink will help the Saints vs the blacklight virus. Seriously.

[Xess]

Since a lasweapon doesn't need more than a modern day bullet's energy to kill someone, that is a few kilojoules a shot, campfires actually do have that much energy in them. Any campfire that can boil a pot of water for say tea or coffee has enough energy to charge a lasgun power pack. Say 1 liter of water starting at 20 degrees Celsius, that would require about 300 kilojoules to be raised to 100 degrees. At 10 kilojoules a shot that's 30 shots, and it is of course not the full output of a campfire.

Damn that's a good point. I wish I'd thought of that. Boiling anything really!

Mind if I steal this idea?

PS: HOW DARE YOU USE REALISM!

Steal away, I'm just glad I can help!

[Connor MacLeod]

Since a lasweapon doesn't need more than a modern day bullet's energy to kill someone, that is a few kilojoules a shot, campfires actually do have that much energy in them. Any campfire that can boil a pot of water for say tea or coffee has enough energy to charge a lasgun power pack. Say 1 liter of water starting at 20 degrees Celsius, that would require about 300 kilojoules to be raised to 100 degrees. At 10 kilojoules a shot that's 30 shots, and it is of course not the full output of a campfire.

Damn that's a good point. I wish I'd thought of that. Boiling anything really!

Mind if I steal this idea?

PS: HOW DARE YOU USE REALISM!

Steal away, I'm just glad I can help!

Funny enough I remembered reading about something like that before (aside from the cell phone recharging by body heat) and I thought it was really neat. I mean if you can charge cell phones from a campfire laser guns can't be THAT much farther away can they?

[madd0ct0r]

ok gamer.

lets do this.

let quantatize the gigatons out of Saints Row: mechanisims are irrelavnt. Names are irrelevant, we're intrested in quantifiable effects.

So:
let's start with saints flow: 1) how long does it take a typical human to run 100m in SR? 2) how long does it take when ripped?
Just those two data points would give us a place to start for enhanced acceleration, top speed, and energy burned.

2) these SUPA tanks you're talking about. What effect is there when they shoot at 1) concrete, 2) a car, 3) any other target you think we can derive figures for easily?

[gamer]

Guys he's using that Saints Flow ad as evidence for why drinking an energy drink will help the Saints vs the blacklight virus. Seriously.

I already showed you the video of how super charged Saints Flow acts during gameplay, the ad was just showing there is at least some evidence that it acts like that. How do you explain running faster than cars, leaping across building, blowing people apart with your fists, and throwing energy balls? Though Saints Flow really isn't needed the Boss can handle himself without it.

The Scenario: (also you act like the Saints are going to go fight in the Red Zone they don't have to take the fight to Mercer that would be suicidal let Heller take Mercer on)

The Saints need to survive, Saints gang members can probably handle themselves against the common infected, though handling the Walkers might be problematic. Hunters, Hydras, and other mutants shouldn't be too much of a problem with their Crusader tanks (these are equipped with high powered laser guns and railguns making them more capable than M1A2 Abrams tanks), VTOLS, and various gunships. The thing to do would not be rushing to the Red Zone to get slaughtered but instead a smarter strategy would probably be to hold up in the Green Zone and try to make sure there is no way infected can travel from the Red or Yellow zone into the Green Zone island so basically help Blackwatch do their job. Things get more complicated if Blackwatch decide to attack them as well but they should be able to resist Blackwatch with everything on their side that they have like superior armor and weaponry, a super hacker and other things at their disposal. The Boss being the superhuman that he/she is as usual would be having fun doing the most difficult tasks that may be required in keeping the Green Zone safe. If possible the Boss could try to ally with Heller and assist him in return for his assistance in their survival though I don't know how willing Heller would be to accept their offer. Getting off the island is the most difficult part though they should be able to survive long enough for Heller to kill Mercer in my opinion.

[Connor MacLeod]

But since realism doesn't matter, then everything is arbitrary.

I declare that Indiana Jones wins because he can survive a 3 kiloton fridge hitting the ground at 50 megagrams per second and therefore hits with a kinetic energy in the terapascal range. There's no way either universe can top that!

Plus he has a fedora.

[gamer]

ok gamer.

lets do this.

let quantatize the gigatons out of Saints Row: mechanisims are irrelavnt. Names are irrelevant, we're intrested in quantifiable effects.

So:
let's start with saints flow: 1) how long does it take a typical human to run 100m in SR? 2) how long does it take when ripped?
Just those two data points would give us a place to start for enhanced acceleration, top speed, and energy burned.

2) these SUPA tanks you're talking about. What effect is there when they shoot at 1) concrete, 2) a car, 3) any other target you think we can derive figures for easily?

Where am I saying gigatons or anything remotely close to that?

As for Saints Flow I posted a video showing what it does, as for the Crusader tank I also posted a video that had one in it.


The Crusader uses a railgun for its main gun its a bit more powerful than the Challenger (Abrams with a different name) using game visuals it produces a somewhat sizeable explosion capable of easily destroying multiple cars in one blast and it fires fairly quickly for a tank gun. It has a co-axial anti-infantry laser gun and a microwave laser gun both of which can kill a man instantly and easily tear through light armor, what makes it amazing is that it can survive multiple direct hits from anti-tank missiles and a fall from thousands of feet without damage (cutscene).

(you can see the Crusader in action at around 3:00)

[Aaron MkII]

Know your audience, gigatons is mentioned because its an in joke. A poke at the boards original purpose and the oft quote gigatons in SW.

Its not meant to be taken literally in this context.

Oh Revan, there's a story in one of the Space Marine short story books where traitor marines go eva naked, as part of a trial.

[Aaron MkII]

The Labyrinth, Heros of the Space Marines.

[Lord Revan]

oh well there's intelligent ways of dealing with outliers and it's not going "nah, nah, I can't hear you..."

[Aaron MkII]

Certainly. Though I consider the vacuum thing to be in character for 40K. The story even mentions that their Mucranoid glands would give them a few extra minutes.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well the vaccuum thing is pretty silly because he's basing it on his INTERPRETATION. of 'breathing in space.' I mean heaven forbid that they might do something as outlandish as 'hold their breath' right? I mean 'Brothers of the Snake' had them holding their breath for 15-30 minutes IIRC (or at least Priad did) even allowing for no other factors to matter (I'd imagine loss of helmet would not suddenly mean the air supply of the power armour vanishes either.. I'm pretty sure its been mentioned the Armor has its own internal air supply as well.)

And then there's always the crazy idea that AG might allow them to have some sort of breathable atmosphere outside the hull. I mean the idea that a fundamental force like gravity might NOT just arbitrarily stop at a given distance is hard to grasp but...

I just remembered - didn't all that 'Saint Flow' crap have some crazy batman like 'biff' 'bam' 'kapow' bubbles popping up randomly? How the hell does that fit into 'gameplay analysis' exactly? CAn they expel their breath in multicolored symbols?

[Aaron MkII]

Clearly.

Funny enough, the ship thekr outside has debris gatherd by the AG, its also in the Warp so who knows what magic stuff is happening.