Best/Worst military forces in Science Fiction

[the atom]

That assumes your armoured battlegroup isn't ripped apart by death gliders and Al'kesh given you have no way to get air support through, and conventional weapons can't scratch Al'kesh anyway.

Total garbage. Al'kesh bombers have been blown to pieces and shot down by conventional weapons on numerous occasions. Take the battle in the Arctic where they were getting massacred by F-302s, or when Baal got shot down by a couple fighters as a few good examples.

[Metahive]

I think he means infantry held weapons here. The only time I remember an Al'kesh was downed by ground fire in the show was when Teal'c used the gun he had scavenged from a death glider.

[Captain Seafort]

They weren't minor, one raid involved SG-1 killing an entire batch of larval Goa'uld not to speak of them nearly capturing Apophis on the Nox planet. A retaliatory strike by him was only a question of time after that. Also, if the Ta'uri had made any louder noise, the System Lords would have intervened collectively as they already threatened when SG-1 killed Hathor and Seth, two rogue Goa'uld.

And did Earth back down as a result of said threats? No. They allied with the Tok'ra, started a Jaffa rebellion, tried to wipe out the System Lords at least once, started building an interstellar battle fleet, and generally made a thorough nuisance of themselves. Given the chaos SG-1 caused all by themselves, I'd consider the addition of a couple of dozen armoured vehicles to be pretty minor complaint. A couple of dozen is all I'm thinking of - a battlegroup would, if nothing else, take too long to deploy and withdraw.

[Blayne]

I think he means infantry held weapons here. The only time I remember an Al'kesh was downed by ground fire in the show was when Teal'c used the gun he had scavenged from a death glider.

I'm suggesting those big missiles like the more mobile S-300 or a Linebacker; those should be able to handle a Alkesh and do area denial to the gliders. If going near a gate means instantly losing a few no matter what there's going to be some hesitancy.

I've also never seen in the show more than a smallish squadron of such things attacking a gate anyways.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That assumes your armoured battlegroup isn't ripped apart by death gliders and Al'kesh given you have no way to get air support through, and conventional weapons can't scratch Al'kesh anyway.

Total garbage. Al'kesh bombers have been blown to pieces and shot down by conventional weapons on numerous occasions. Take the battle in the Arctic where they were getting massacred by F-302s, or when Baal got shot down by a couple fighters as a few good examples.

F302s have a pair of nose-mounted railguns, their destructive yield is a bit better than what a typical fighter (say, an F16) might be equipped with. I would have to go back and check the episodes, but the missile payload of something like an F16 might be sufficient, but that also means a single SAM might not be effective, which makes area denial via such missiles impractical, forcing the use of ground based railguns as per The Siege pt 2.

That said, we have ample examples showing that, frankly, when it comes to a standup engagement, the combination of Death Gliders and ground forces is sufficient to wipe out the US military. Such as that Alternate Realty Daniel Jackson got pulled into. When they are prepared to engage us (as opposed to going in to terrify a planet full of primitives), they can cut through our ground forces like a hot knife through butter, and the fighter compliment of two Ha'Taks is sufficient to establish air superiority over our entire planet very very quickly. Granted, orbital bombardment exists, but with two Ha'Tak's they cannot blow up every airbase. They seem to prioritize cities.

which brings me to this:

The fact is that the Goauld tend to react strongly to any form of resistance, so I really don't see the point of holding back, if all that means is that your forces are less effective for no particular benefit.

The SG teams seem pretty damn effective to me, and it is precisely because they dont come through with armored vehicles. What exactly is their objective? They act as saboteurs, spies, and insurrectionists, as well as scouts/explorers. If they have to engage the Goa'Uld they use hit and run tactics, and this seems to work reasonably well. You expect to be able to win in a standup fight? No. Even if the Goa'Uld do not bother to send four motherships to earth, they still have a galaxy of resources that we do not have. If they know they will periodically be engaging heavy weapons and armor, they will use overwhelming force on strategically important worlds like Naquadah Mines or military bases, rendering the military effectiveness of such instruments null and void. If you go in with tanks as opposed to, to use Teal'C's wording, a "medical attack" (it just...creates such a hilarious mental image. Doctors weaponizing medical instruments...), you create collateral casualties, alienating the very people you are trying to court as allies, and ruining any possibility of trade. You become, in their eyes, no better than the Goa'Uld. How about Jaffa Worlds? Well, they probably have a HUGE military presence there, for one. And second, same deal. If you go in and start causing collateral damage, the Jaffa who might be inclined to rebel will not trust you enough to form an alliance.

So strategically, use of tanks (etc) is probably close to useless, at least for the vast vast majority of missions we see on screen, unless you are setting up to defend an off-world base, which we do see heavier weapons used for.

Unscrew them and lay them on the back of the vehicle. Screw them back in when you get to the other side of the gate.

You are not understanding me. Say I need to raise and lower an object. If I connect the object to a crane to lift it to the point that it fits through the gate, I cannot do so, because the entire object--including anything attached to it--must go through the gate before said object is forwarded to the destination. So that wont work. I end up with the same falling problem, and I dont think a tank will do too well dropping two meters or somesuch when it exits the gate. The alternative is to send an advance team through, and construct a ramp capable of bearing heavy loads on the other side at the required height. That takes time, and is a rather obvious thing. This cannot be done when someone is guarding the gate. So, this tactic might work a few times, until the Goa'Uld start guarding the gates of strategically important worlds with sizeable detachments of Jaffa. SG1 can do its job because they randomly appear via stealth insertion at almost random worlds. The Goa'Uld dont know when or where an SG team will show up. If the Tau'ri start bringing in weapons capable of being an existential threat to Goa'Uld forces (as opposed to, for the most part, an annoyance that occasionally manages to temporarily set-back plans) Goa'Uld protocols will change. It is not like they are not prepared to engage in conventional warfare via the gate system. They have been killing eachother for a while.

And did Earth back down as a result of said threats? No. They allied with the Tok'ra, started a Jaffa rebellion, tried to wipe out the System Lords at least once, started building an interstellar battle fleet, and generally made a thorough nuisance of themselves. Given the chaos SG-1 caused all by themselves, I'd consider the addition of a couple of dozen armoured vehicles to be pretty minor complaint.

See Above. Also: the only reason they Goa'Uld did not attack in force is due to in-fighting.

It would ALL take too long to deploy and withdraw.

If going near a gate means instantly losing a few no matter what there's going to be some hesitancy.

That assumes that the Goa'Uld value the lives of their pilots. They dont. They also have enough death gliders to sacrifice... a few, should the situation warrant it.

I've also never seen in the show more than a smallish squadron of such things attacking a gate anyways.

Because they were never expecting to have to deal with the Tau'ri coming through the gate in force. They were chasing down people insufficiently well armed to damage the death gliders most of the time. If that situation changes, the number of death gliders deployed changes, particularly if they see said forces guarding the gate/being constructed on site.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Goa'uld smack down Earth in a whole bunch of alternate realities. First in "There but for the Grace of God" with that mirror thing, then in "Point of View" with a different reality. While searching for the right reality, they see an awful lot that are Jaffa-overrun SGC's. In "Lost City" they do quite well against our Earth until SG-1 drops the hammer. Finally, in Continuum they overwhelm Earth in short order.

[Blayne]

Because of orbital bombardment, not because of any ground or air superiority; also usually surprise attack.

[Captain Seafort]

That said, we have ample examples showing that, frankly, when it comes to a standup engagement, the combination of Death Gliders and ground forces is sufficient to wipe out the US military. Such as that Alternate Realty Daniel Jackson got pulled into. When they are prepared to engage us (as opposed to going in to terrify a planet full of primitives), they can cut through our ground forces like a hot knife through butter, and the fighter compliment of two Ha'Taks is sufficient to establish air superiority over our entire planet very very quickly. Granted, orbital bombardment exists, but with two Ha'Tak's they cannot blow up every airbase. They seem to prioritize cities.

Which is why you'd be stupid to try and establish a defensible bridgehead - it's impossible given the strength of the opposing forces. It also has nothing to do with what I've suggested.

The SG teams seem pretty damn effective to me, and it is precisely because they dont come through with armored vehicles. What exactly is their objective? They act as saboteurs, spies, and insurrectionists, as well as scouts/explorers. If they have to engage the Goa'Uld they use hit and run tactics, and this seems to work reasonably well.

I'm not expecting an armoured force to do the job of the SAS. However, neither do I expect the SAS to do the job of an armoured force. They're designed to accomplish completely different tasks in different situations.

You expect to be able to win in a standup fight? No.

No, I expect to be able to smash through local Goauld resistance and then bug out, in cases where said forces would be able to resist any light infantry attack with ease. There will, of course, be cases where local Goauld forces are too strong to be defeated by any gate-deployable military force, in which case either an alternative method will be required, or it will have to be accepted that the mission cannot be accomplished. There will, however, be cases where even a small armoured force could accomplish an objective that an SG team would either be incapable of, or would suffer heavy losses in doing so, and it's those cases that I'm focussing on here.

Even if the Goa'Uld do not bother to send four motherships to earth, they still have a galaxy of resources that we do not have. If they know they will periodically be engaging heavy weapons and armor, they will use overwhelming force on strategically important worlds like Naquadah Mines or military bases, rendering the military effectiveness of such instruments null and void.

Then why don't they do so anyway? They're in a state of constant warfare among the System Lords, so their key strategic assets are already targets for far more powerful forces than Earth could hope to field. The fact that they aren't defended in massive force suggests that they don't have the resources to do so. Having a million times the military power of the US doesn't help very much when your commitments are ten million times greater (for example).

If you go in with tanks as opposed to, to use Teal'C's wording, a "medical attack" (it just...creates such a hilarious mental image. Doctors weaponizing medical instruments...)

An SG team full of Ton Phanons.

you create collateral casualties, alienating the very people you are trying to court as allies, and ruining any possibility of trade. You become, in their eyes, no better than the Goa'Uld. How about Jaffa Worlds? Well, they probably have a HUGE military presence there, for one. And second, same deal. If you go in and start causing collateral damage, the Jaffa who might be inclined to rebel will not trust you enough to form an alliance.

So you avoid using heavy armour in cases where it would be counterproductive, although I object to the notion that noncombatant casualties are an inevitable result of the use of armoured vehicles.

You are not understanding me. Say I need to raise and lower an object. If I connect the object to a crane to lift it to the point that it fits through the gate, I cannot do so, because the entire object--including anything attached to it--must go through the gate before said object is forwarded to the destination. So that wont work. I end up with the same falling problem, and I dont think a tank will do too well dropping two meters or somesuch when it exits the gate.The alternative is to send an advance team through, and construct a ramp capable of bearing heavy loads on the other side at the required height. That takes time, and is a rather obvious thing. This cannot be done when someone is guarding the gate.

Install a ramp at the SGC end - already done, and by eyeball it might be wide enough to take a Bradley already. Send a team or ROV to the other end to examine it. Most gates are built on platforms, with ramps or steps, and if the platform is high enough up the gate to be wide enough to accept a Bradley, job done - it'll be a bit bumpy, but they can drive down any steps. If it isn't, and things are quiet enough to send engineers through, do as you suggest and set up a ramp - which, by the way, would be far quicker than you suggest. Just set a base piece up against the gate, and drop in a couple of ramps in the right place for the tracks. This may restrict you to Bradleys rather than sending a full combined-arms force through, but it's still a lot better than leg infantry.

You also seem to be under the impression that I think sending armour through the gate is some sort of panacea that could overrun any Goauld opposition it comes across, and do all SG-1's jobs for them. This is not the case - I'm simply saying that opposition that could take an SG team apart in short order (say, a hundred or so Jaffa) would itself be taken apart in short order by a few Bradleys.

So, this tactic might work a few times, until the Goa'Uld start guarding the gates of strategically important worlds with sizeable detachments of Jaffa. SG1 can do its job because they randomly appear via stealth insertion at almost random worlds. The Goa'Uld dont know when or where an SG team will show up. If the Tau'ri start bringing in weapons capable of being an existential threat to Goa'Uld forces (as opposed to, for the most part, an annoyance that occasionally manages to temporarily set-back plans) Goa'Uld protocols will change. It is not like they are not prepared to engage in conventional warfare via the gate system. They have been killing each other for a while.

So why aren't they doing this already? As you say, they've been killing each other for a long time, but very few of their gates have any defences - do they expect the other System Lords to announce the their next target to give them time to get into position? Do they allow them to march armies through and await them on the local battlefield like civilised chaps? You would also have thought that when SG-1 started popping up left, right and centre causing havoc and killing Goauld, they would have established defences to guard against them.

[Action Avenue]

Once the good guys got their act together to square off against the invading aliens in "Independence Day", the US military and other supporting countries military forces kicked major ET ass! Probably one of my favorite sci-fi movies ever made and I will never get tired of it either.

[Blayne]

I also point out that the issue of bringing down a Bradley has been largely addressed, realistically we would simply expand the construction of Cheyenne Mountain, or heck, move the gate itself to a more suitable location. It doesn't *have* to be Cheyenne, it's just convenient.

Secondly, presumably if we have the facilities to hold a Marine armoured/mechanized combined arms division than simply passing through the gate itself doesn't take very long; the key thing is to evacuate crews, so we can just leave whatever vehicals and equipment behind that owuld keep the crews from getting back through the gate in a real emergency while the last bradley or Osa does a rear guard action and backs up through the gate last.

Thirdly the TV canon we have to remember was deliberately written that way, with the budget and writing behind it to have actual pitched battles than you would see, every so often such battles. They only did hit and run attacks because of budget; had they had the budget then I think a few bradley's would've showed up, or strikers they're smaller.

First you send in a MALP to see if the place is safe, than you send in the SG teams to scout it out, with UAV support and make sure that there isn't an encampment too close to set up a perimeter. Then you send in a mobile radar and a S-300M or US equivalent to do area denial from gliders with Linebackers/Tunguska's to support it from anything that gets too close.

Following that with about a regiment of armor, Bradley's, T-90's, Abrams, Challengers, HUMVEE's with TOW missiles or .50's to about 50-60 vehicals, you got yourself enough firepower to do whatever it's called; that armor patrol thing where you go in shoot stuff up and leave.

You can't take a world but you can keep doing this to make the System Lord's off balance; which is another implausibility, they pretty much either ignored us overall or collaborated to crush us; and we never really did anything other than to kill one or kill them all. Never do we try to pitch one System Lord against another one! Which should've been easy. Our weapons are superior to there's, they're all greedy ambitious sovereigns at least one should've been positive towards cooperation on the down low, we don't raid them and they let us use their territory to mask our raids.

It's nt like we haven't tolerated genocidal regimes before.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why would the System Lords ally with people they see as so inferior that they act as our gods?

As for why the gate is in Cheyenne Mountain, it might be because Cheyenne Mountain is so resistant to damage. Being inside a mountain would help contain explosions or alien diseases in the base, and it would offer protection against an orbital bombardment.

[Blayne]

Not like Cortez or Pizarro allied with local people they felt were inferior heathens. Oh wait.

Cheyenne can't even resist a JDAM, it's not that much protection.

[The Romulan Republic]

Still more protection than most bases in the world.

And Cortez and Pizarro might have allied with people they viewed as inferior, but I doubt either of them thought they were gods as System Lords appear to believe. Also, they were in command of small forces far from home. They needed help. The System Lords are extremely powerful. Why would they go to a nation that doesn't even control one entire planet and initially lacks any starships for help? What could Earth possibly offer them to make it worth stooping to working with them?

[Blayne]

Plausible deniability. There's a tonne of reasons to let the Tauri do their thing against your enemies while just give them lipservice and ignore them in exchange for some technology. Also it might buy browny points from the Asgard.

[Beowulf]

The US has no equivalent to the S-300 system. The closest equivalent would be some variant of the Standard/AEGIS missile/radar system, in a mobile land system. However, no such system actually exists. The closest actual equivalent would be a Patriot battery, but the US Army primarily relies on the USAF for long range air defense.

That said, it's fairly canon that large scale military forces such as what you're positing would end up getting stomp flat by a Ha'tak. Yes, we have superior land forces. Means jack shit in a orbital fight. And that's precisely what would happen to us if we started what you're proposing before we had sufficient orbital defenses. We'd go from a fly to a mosquito, and get slapped.

Also, for those thinking it'd be easy to tunnel out Cheyenne Mountain to support a large motor pool: what the hell are you going to do with the excess rock you're hauling out? You're next to a semi-major metropolitan city. You're not going to be able to hide the dump trucks!

[Blayne]

Why would they need to hide the trucks? "We're expanding the Cheyenne complex, etc, national security." no one is going to ask questions.

Also the Americans could at some point concievably borrow them, or purchase S-200's from former warsaw pact nations, like east Germany, or find NATO allies with similar systems.

Why would a Hatak not knock flat the SG teams? Clearly not every world has Hatak's in orbit.

[The Yosemite Bear]

what about Torchwood, UNIT, XCOM, and Thunderbirds? (oh whatwould happen if they teamed up, with SGC (besides the obvious Jack Harkness blazing a path of sexual devestation) anyways?)

[Stark]

Most people are talking at the 'competent' end of the scale, Bear.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yes, I noticed, but the Jack Harkness fucks all of SGC would be interesting....

[Blayne]

Considering Torchwood's usual track record I think the Cardiff team has been more successful than most.

[The Yosemite Bear]

That's just because Sokar would probably end the threatened destruction of earth because he and Jack prabably hit it off soem time in the past....

[Sea Skimmer]

Not like Cortez or Pizarro allied with local people they felt were inferior heathens. Oh wait.

Cheyenne can't even resist a JDAM, it's not that much protection.

How exactly does a JDAM go through 2,000 feet of solid rock?

[Blayne]

Someone on my Teamspeak server who is in the US military made the claim when I was discussing this topic with him (also a Stargate fan, so it came up). The claim goes along that modern sub-nuclear bunker buster munitions can penetrate cheyenne, it didn't really make sense to me but I'm not in the military (anymore anyways).

However I do know that direct hit with a nuclear device will destroy the complex, that was in a documentary I watched and I have no reason to believe that a Hatak's main armament is significantly weaker than a ICBM.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah, you know while not ever in the military, my experience over a decent number of years now is people in the military are full of hyperbole, and they generally don't know a lot about anything they were not specifically trained on. Its just life.

As for JDAM, totally impossible. Even if you had some absurd impact velocity a bomb made of any known material would completely melt before it could defeat rock that thick, let alone rock that happens to be granite with much greater compressive strength then concrete. Once you get past even 300 feet of rock no remotely reasonable conventional weapon could have any effect, and even a 30,000lb MOP won't actually be effective at that depth, its just paper ideas might be. The 2000lb JDAM with a bunker buster warhead is rated for around 16 feet of 5000psi concrete. Granite is a couple times stronger.

The mountain will take a direct hit from a moderate yield nuke, and a very near miss from a high megaton range bomb. Nothing less could do more then collapse the entry portals, and while Cheyenne was operational they kept many tons of blasting explosives inside it to be able to blow the portals back open. The place also has at least one secret exit, hilariously revealed by EPA filings concerning water rights, that might and indeed likely is big enough for people to escape out of.

Though, its also worth noting that since the Stargate was lowered into the mountain in the show through a giant hatch, it would actually have massively compromised protection for the entire facility against nuclear bombs, but making a steel and concrete lid that can stop JDAMs would be pretty easy.

[khursed]

Training Starfleet officers in history, justice, science and diplomacy means they don't have to fight. They don't have to crush a rebellion, since there's no need for people to rebel in the first place..

So, I guess you never heard of the Maquis, or the wonderful time the Sonas tried to make the federation kick out the habitant of a world out, and their own captain went on the insurection!!! Wait, those aren't rebels, they are starfleet officer going against their own regime!

What about that time when our good starfleet admiral tried to take over the earth, and the federation, while Sisko was sent to jail for trying to prevent it?

Honestly, we're talking about the best Sci-fi military, Starfleet might be an impressive peace keeping force, but as far as wagging war, they fall short most of the times.