Alien mecha designs

[Stark]

FUUUU EDIT WINDOW



I'm not sure if artillery really plays to the strength of robits. It requires speed and volume, and robits generally aren't the best layout for those characteristics. If you go recoilless or use bracing, you'd usually be better off with a different kind of vehicle.

[Zinegata]

Sorry dude, in IGLOO their missiles are shown having to be manually kept on target and constantly spazzing out and going to the top left like a joystick in 1982. Doubtless they were able to harden shit a bit later, but it's just as likely all the cable-driven stuff just has bigger cables (like on wire-guided fists etc) which aren't practical for a missile that wants any range.

You're confusing the inherent problems of wire-guideds with wire-guideds becoming useless with M-particles.

Spazzing doesn't mean it was jamming (it could be IR interference on the camera). What's likely happening is instead an inherent problem with wire-guideds: The wire is fragile and likely to break on its own, especially when attached to a fast-moving missile travelling through an environment full of shell fragments.

That's why I said they're not gonna help much against Mobile Suits anyway. It's a pretty fragile system and a big reason why most modern missiles are starting to drop them (submarine torpedoes, which travel slower, still use them widely though).

Also, wire-guideds are by definition manually controlled from a remote control unit. If it had automated guidance there's no need for it to be wired in the first place. So it being manually controlled is not because of M-jamming.

AMBAC isn't 'magic' and the highest linear performance suits are all fighter in layout anyway.

You're talking linear performance, I'm talking maneuverability. In Gundam, a humanoid-shaped fighter (Mobile Suit) are canonically more maneuverable than a traditional fighter (i.e. Core Booster).

The reason why Mobile Suits are capable of better space gymnastics is because of AMBAC. See more details here:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Active_Mas ... to-Control

I call it magic because there's no real science to back up that AMBAC would really work IRL (especially how it can make a humanoid machine maneuver without using propellant), but it is major part of the Gundam's justificatons for having giant robots.

[Stark]

Its just propellant-free manouvre by swinging arms around. As used by... dudes in space. Its not magic, there is indeed science to back it up, its just probably less important than the two dozen verniers and fusion-powered rockets the suits ALSO have.

And in the video right there you can see the crosshairs being unable to stay centered and the missile constantly swerving off target. The stuff in space that uses wire-control has giant robit-scale wires, which for obvious reasons aren't practical on a man-portable missile that needs hundreds of meters of wire. I figure either the operator has parkinsons or the missiles are being interfered with by minkovskys, and it was only 'minkovsky level 6' which apparently isn't considered a big problem.

[Zinegata]

Alright, since Stark is just a retard playing games and constantly amusing himself by how "clever" he is, I won't bother to explain how that video clip shows exactly how wire-guideds work even without jamming, and how those verniers aren't gonna be as good without AMBAC - which is the reality instead of his stupidity.

Really, one would think that motion by a giant robot without the use of propellant would already be questionable, but Stark isn't interested so why fucking bother? So I'll just point out he's a moron for not questioning the "logic" of the AMBAC system instead of explaining.

There is no point explaining when Stark is too busy trying to pretend that he's too clever to ever make a mistake, and then meanders around bullshit instead of having an actual fucking conversation. So go troll someone else dickhead.

[Zinegata]

And with that done, back to the folks who seem interested in straight answers instead of playing more troll games.

Jollyreaper->



In case you're wondering about why I said wire-guided are problematic, this video is actually a fairly decent example. The Mobile Suit in this picture is actually performing a pretty simple evasive maneuver - by walking backward - and yet the wire-guided missiles have difficulty remaining aimed at the target.

Why? This isn't jamming. There is no such thing as a "lock on" with a wire-guided.

This is because the missile is moving pretty quickly and there's a bit of a lag time between the operator moving the controls and the missile being able to do a course-correction (missiles aren't capable of following movements as precisely as a mouse). That problem exists even with the most modern ATGs, and as demonstrated in the video Mobile Suits are capable of much quicker motions than tanks which allow them to dodge out of the way of missiles (thank AMBAC for that).

And this is all before we assume that the operator isn't actively distracted / getting shot at.

Most modern militaries have are thus switching to stuff like the Javelin which don't need wires to guide them to the target. These rely on their own autonomous guidance to pick out a target, but the problem is that Gundam has stuff like decoy ballons to throw them off too:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Gundam_Wiki:Technology

[jollyreaper]

Well the kicker seems to be that the universe's special sauce makes jamming ubiquitous, just like Eva's special sauce is tied up with AT fields and S2 engines. I like my scifi to be "as is in the real world unless otherwise noted."

I remembered the fluff justification for robot maneuverability but forgot the bit about jamming. At least they are trying to explain things!

I hear you about wire-guided being tough. It was also annoying to deal with radar-guided missiles that required the launching aircraft to keep the target illuminated until impact. Staying still is death and yet you have to do it! Attack copters firing TOW missiles would probably have gotten slaughtered in a WWIII scenario.

So in a heavy jamming scenario where there's no special sauce, all real world, home on jam would still be a viable weapon, right? You only jam when you don't mind giving away your position because ruining the enemy's sensor view makes more sense. A sub doesn't ping unless it needs a firing solution he couldn't get from passive sonar because he just told everyone where he's at.

I don't think any wire-guided tank missiles had other than visual guidance by an operator but sub torps were steered from the passive arrays on the launch vehicle to due greater sensitivity and could be programmed to ping with their own sonar only when the cable is snapped or on command. That all sounds like it would be very complicated in a space setting, even if jamming kept the fighting range down to miles instead of hundreds of miles.

[Connor MacLeod]

AMBAC isn't 'magic' and the highest linear performance suits are all fighter in layout anyway.

You're talking linear performance, I'm talking maneuverability. In Gundam, a humanoid-shaped fighter (Mobile Suit) are canonically more maneuverable than a traditional fighter (i.e. Core Booster).

The reason why Mobile Suits are capable of better space gymnastics is because of AMBAC. See more details here:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Active_Mas ... to-Control

I call it magic because there's no real science to back up that AMBAC would really work IRL (especially how it can make a humanoid machine maneuver without using propellant), but it is major part of the Gundam's justificatons for having giant robots.

Uh, if this was in fact a hypothetical reactionless drive of some kind, why would they a.) bother with any sort of reaction drive, b.) be totally incapable of using it as a form of propulsion at all, or c.) be unable to employ it on anything other than a mech? I don't quite get the logic of what you're trying to propose or why its the 'only' answer.

As an aside, I have read about articles where its supposedly possible to 'swim' through space. I dont think its a 100% parallel to what the link describes, but it shows its at least possible and doesn't require invoking an overly complex 'reactionless drive system' that can only be used for bipedal conveyances.

***

Also as far as the missiles go, since I know very little about the technology of Gundam, I gather that missiles are generally wire guided? And at least some (if nto all) are manually guided because of the minovsky jamming effect.

Also the missiles in the video posted - are they supposed to be wire guided or without wires? I didn't really notice any but I dont know either if they were supposed to have them or not.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ah, found something on the swimming in space thing. I imagine it could be made to fit.

[Gunhead]

Technically speaking, unless you're talking about the very earliest antitank missiles, you're not really controlling the missile. The controlling unit sends out commands to the missile directing it towards the center of the cross hair which the gunner has to keep on the target throughout the flight. The controlling unit sees the missile by tracking the IR image coming out of the back of the missile. Then you have the beam riders that follow a laser beam to the target. AT-3 Sagger is one example where the controller directed the missile itself.

-Gunhead

[Sea Skimmer]

Command guided missiles also exist that use a RF datalink instead of a wire, and wire guided missiles do in some instances have fire control systems which can automatically track the target. So do some laser guided weapons like the Hellfire system on an Apache and all radar guided anti tank missiles. Course, if the missile designers are so bad that a balloon decoy works against the guidance system they probably are far too stupid to have anything like this working. Given that video clip, the missiles in question probably works/was inspired by something more like the abortive EFOGM missile then like a TOW though, with the missile just cruising on an autopilot in an arc and having its aim point manually adjusted with no guidance involvement from the launcher. Guidance systems like that have been around a long time on smart bombs. Never have gotten anywhere on real missiles service wise, aside from about 200 EFRGM because of cost grounds. Cost would not be a big deal when the target is something as stupendously lavish as mecha. It would be fun to see the mecha try to evade a mach 4 AMRAAM given the Longbow Hellfire seeker.

[Jub]

Technically speaking, unless you're talking about the very earliest antitank missiles, you're not really controlling the missile. The controlling unit sends out commands to the missile directing it towards the center of the cross hair which the gunner has to keep on the target throughout the flight. The controlling unit sees the missile by tracking the IR image coming out of the back of the missile. Then you have the beam riders that follow a laser beam to the target. AT-3 Sagger is one example where the controller directed the missile itself.

-Gunhead

Command guided missiles also exist that use a RF datalink instead of a wire, and wire guided missiles do in some instances have fire control systems which can automatically track the target. So do some laser guided weapons like the Hellfire system on an Apache and all radar guided anti tank missiles. Course, if the missile designers are so bad that a balloon decoy works against the guidance system they probably are far too stupid to have anything like this working. Given that video clip, the missiles in question probably works/was inspired by something more like the abortive EFOGM missile then like a TOW though, with the missile just cruising on an autopilot in an arc and having its aim point manually adjusted with no guidance involvement from the launcher. Guidance systems like that have been around a long time on smart bombs. Never have gotten anywhere on real missiles service wise, aside from about 200 EFRGM because of cost grounds. Cost would not be a big deal when the target is something as stupendously lavish as mecha. It would be fun to see the mecha try to evade a mach 4 AMRAAM given the Longbow Hellfire seeker.

The real issue is that M-particles can actually cause static on images captured by cameras. I think they can also effect the naked eye and how far you can see before things just become a blurry haze, but I could be wrong on this last point. In any case, ths is why a wire guided missile will need to be either a dumb weapon, or manually controlled by the pilot.

[Stark]

The footage shown is from the missile's POV (the first missile is fired up for a top attack), so I'm not sure at which point the command is being interfered with. I'm not sure if this is due to interference to the signal along the wire or interference with the computer at either end, but from the launchers POV the target is barely moving and the sight is tripod mounted so it should be stable. I can show the whole attack sequence if it'd be useful. This weapon is some kind of retrofitted existing AT weapon and not a specific anti robit weapon designed for and m-particle environment, though; at this point the EF is struggling to create effective doctrinal and technical counters to ground MS. They eventually go with new tactics and shitloads of tanks.

Connor, the end of the clip shows the wire trailing behind the missile that the Zaku dodges. Other shows suggest that inertial guidance still works, but obviously that's only useful against predictable targets. The interference seemingly affects electronics in general, rather than simpy being EM noise confusing seeker heads.

[Gunhead]

I got a distinct Sagger feeling from the clip with a TV slapped to the nose of the missile that would replace the basic optical scope used to direct the missile on the earlier versions. It would still be a bit dodgy against a moving target. SACLOS ATGMs fly in a spiral, with the spiral coming smaller as they get nearer the target line. I'm not sure but I think this applies to all ATGMs to some extent. I don't know about the flight pattern of a more modern ATGMs to great extent. Just by the increased speed I'd gather they wobble a lot less in flight.

-Gunhead

[Connor MacLeod]

It does occur to me that, on reading about the Minovsky stuff, it doesn't seem to just block sensors as some sort of EW/jamming, it actually seems to have some EMP like properties (it can function with electrical equipment, for example, and requires shielding.) Its possible that such an effect may hamper (for example) the precision with which sensors/weapons could track/home on targets (thats at least one possibility that came up with the 'jittering' of the gunsight in that video clip, assuming the idea pans out.) It's even quite possible that the Minovskys may have some effect on biological bodies in some way (I hesitate to say this because my lack of knowledge in biology may mean this is impossible - could you affect eye or hand coordination, for example, without fucking with the heart? Can we handwave that in any way if it is an issue?)

Also its worth noting that shielding is not an absolute, so its possible it may not be 100% effective in all circumstances against all effects, or whatever - and I mainyl bring this up because even shielded, vehicles and crews may be still subject (to varying degrees) to such 'jamming'. Is there some requirement among mech pilots in the Gundam universe that makes them unusual or exceptional from the common man? That could be one reason. Just a thought, though.

[Stark]

Electronics apparently work fine inside ships or giant robits, but small missiles generally avoid modern capabities. And I've only ever seen balloon decoys used to confuse pilots using optical sighting or to defeat long-range sensors by creating ghosts and shadows, not to confuse missiles.

As I said, later on missile guidance isn't hugely relevant because in hit with a robit gun at 100km will kill someone. In the early phase, it's clear the EF ran into significant technical problems. Ewing the new environment, and later 'disperse minkovski particles' comes right after 'sound general quarters'.

[Connor MacLeod]

By 'work fine' does that mean they work all the time without any glitches anywhere whatsoever? I was just entertaining this idea that some systems might be more vulnerable than others, and it wouldnt neccesarily have to be constant - again variable factors and such.

And on another matter, what ARE Gundam ranges exactly? And the exact kinds of combat they made (it sounds like later on the ranges grew anyhow.) The minovsky entries mentioned them leading to close combat (and mech suits) becoming a combat option in universe, but I know they also use a variety of ranged weaponry as well.

[Stark]

Things like full sensor fusion 360 degree monitors work fine, their complex control computers work fine, etc. I'm nt sure if they avoid systems that are a problem or not, but even their surveillance systems seem to be largely advanced optical systems rathe han radar or whatev.

[Sea Skimmer]

The real issue is that M-particles can actually cause static on images captured by cameras. I think they can also effect the naked eye and how far you can see before things just become a blurry haze, but I could be wrong on this last point. In any case, ths is why a wire guided missile will need to be either a dumb weapon, or manually controlled by the pilot.

Gamma radiation can do the same thing to cameras, but since this has not stopped them from building giant complicated mecha its completely absurd that it would somehow prevent making a much simpler missile from functioning. Do the mecha have nothing more complicated then a mechanical fuel injected diesel on them and no cameras? I somehow doubt that.

[Gunhead]

I was thinking about the range too. One of the big points of wire guidance is it's really hard to jam / interfere with. The missile can be totally blind and just follow the commands it gets from the controller. You'd have to confuse the controller to bring the missile down and basically no short glitch would do that. Way back in the day they put in a feature that causes the missile to level flight if contact with the controller is lost. If the missile gets back in contact with the controller, it again starts taking commands, if not it plummets to the ground. Yeah there are a shit ton of variables that go with that, but the time frames are still several seconds.

-Gunhead

[Commander 598]

IIRC, decoy balloons [originally] had to do with panoramic cockpit displays not being just camera feeds but simulated interpretations of the sensor data where a balloon that looks a fair bit like the object in question gets interpreted as an actual one...at least long enough to serve as an effective distraction in a firefight.

And on another matter, what ARE Gundam ranges exactly?

Variable by environment. Earthside we observe OYW mobile suits firing on each other from as far away as 10km at the drop of a hat with pinpoint accuracy, one with a fancy beam rifle and the other with tank cannon that was field modded into being carryable. In space I would imagine it's as far as you can properly identify a target, some engagements being little more than shooting at lights barely visible from stars on the background.

Honestly I'd say Minovsky really has less of an effect on things than people say. Missiles and sensors might have gone to shit but those machines are monsters regardless.

[Stark]

Yeah, but that's the rationale as to why self-guided missiles aren't used (and why psychics are perverted into guidance systems). That's why milhard wankers hate it.

In space ranges are limited by agility; against ships they're BVR, but against suits they're not, because without some kind of remote-viewing you can't put a fast enough projectile on target. Thus, Newtypes and psycommu. On the ground, this example was at less than 1800m, and they had moderate success regardless of their technical and doctrine problems.

The crews had a two week training course. :V

[Jub]

The real issue is that M-particles can actually cause static on images captured by cameras. I think they can also effect the naked eye and how far you can see before things just become a blurry haze, but I could be wrong on this last point. In any case, ths is why a wire guided missile will need to be either a dumb weapon, or manually controlled by the pilot.

Gamma radiation can do the same thing to cameras, but since this has not stopped them from building giant complicated mecha its completely absurd that it would somehow prevent making a much simpler missile from functioning. Do the mecha have nothing more complicated then a mechanical fuel injected diesel on them and no cameras? I somehow doubt that.

The Mobile Suits are shielded, in fact some even use reactors powered by this new form of particle or use shields and weapons that make use of some of the more exotic effects of these particles. There's also the issue of how much shielding/advanced electronics you can put on a practically sized missile before it's easier to just use a gun.

[Ford Prefect]

I call it magic because there's no real science to back up that AMBAC would really work IRL

They're called 'Newton's Three Laws of Motion'. It's probably true that AMBAC is getting exaggerated results that wouldn't be possible in the real world, but it's a cartoon robot show. The actual concept is sound.

The Mobile Suits are shielded, in fact some even use reactors powered by this new form of particle or use shields and weapons that make use of some of the more exotic effects of these particles. There's also the issue of how much shielding/advanced electronics you can put on a practically sized missile before it's easier to just use a gun.

This is the case. By as early as UC0083 the Feddies had managed to scale down effective shielding to missiles, and in the mid-UC stuff guided missiles are fairly common, but in the One Year War it was just technologically unfeasible to properly shield guided missiles.

e: and the I-field lattice interfering with visual data is an issue for mobile suits anyway.

[Purple]

I know the universe is all about jamming. But do we really need to bring it into this? As there is a much simpler explanation for what we see in that video. First, it's clear that the operator is an idiot*. Instead of trying to lead the target by anticipating where it will be (not that difficult since it is just moving backward and the missile is coming down in an arc) he is trying to keep the cross hairs on the mecha the whole time. As evidenced by the fact that when ever we see the cross hair jerk back it jerks back onto the mecha and not behind it. The effect this has is that he keeps having to correct. As for why we see jerking and not a steady flow of the cross hair veering off that might be due to a bad camera frame rate. Althou if what you said about M particles is true than that might be due to them. Or it might be due to shitty guidance equipment. Either way thou, my explanation for the way we see the missile acting would be a combination of crappy aim (no leading) and low frame rate camera feedback.

[Jub]

The Mobile Suits are shielded, in fact some even use reactors powered by this new form of particle or use shields and weapons that make use of some of the more exotic effects of these particles. There's also the issue of how much shielding/advanced electronics you can put on a practically sized missile before it's easier to just use a gun.

This is the case. By as early as UC0083 the Feddies had managed to scale down effective shielding to missiles, and in the mid-UC stuff guided missiles are fairly common, but in the One Year War it was just technologically unfeasible to properly shield guided missiles.

Thanks for confirming that, I was going from memory there.