Muv-Luv thread

[Ford Prefect]

Oh for god's sake, what is it with the Japanese putting what looks to be pre-pubescent children in giant mecha?

Are you aware that none of this is real?

[gigabytelord]

Oh for god's sake, what is it with the Japanese putting what looks to be pre-pubescent children in giant mecha?

Are you aware that none of this is real?

Of course I do, I'm just wondering why pre-pubescent + Giant mecha = awesome in so many anime.

[Stark]

It MIGHT be related to the target market being children? :v

And I can only assume you aren't really paying attention when you form your generalisation.

[gigabytelord]

It MIGHT be related to the target market being children? :v

And I can only assume you aren't really paying attention when you form your generalization.

Yeah I probably am over generalizing a bit, but still it's kind of comical, the idea that, and I know I've used this word three times now, but it's the only one that really gets the point over, that pre-pubescent kids are somehow the best pilots for giant simi-automated killing machines.

It's just..., I can't take seriously alright...

[Ire]

The main characters like 18-19

Granted the explanation for younger pilots getting recruited is that it's a horrifying war of attrition which has reduced Humanity's population to one Billion. And it gets worse in TDA

[Stark]

I'm not sure why he keeps saying 'pre pubescent', but it's certainly not because he knows what it means.

I can't think of a series where anyone chooses to out children in charge of robits because they think they're better. There are shows where the robits literally would not work without magic, and there are shows where there is nobody else to pilot them, but I can't think of one where they just randomly say I KNOW KIDS RITE????

Then again, I can't think of any show where the pilots are nine, so...

[Connor MacLeod]

Of course I do, I'm just wondering why pre-pubescent + Giant mecha = awesome in so many anime.

I'll give you some friendly advice, and I advise you to listen.

Have you watched a great deal of anime, particularily mecha/robot (pick whichever term you're comfortable with) and if so how much? This is important, because what people are reacting to is your generalization about anime. Because if you're generalizing from a very very small sample, then you're making a sweeping, uniformed generalization, and that's generally a bad thing to do.

[gigabytelord]

I'll give you some friendly advice, and I advise you to listen.

Have you watched a great deal of anime, particularily mecha/robot (pick whichever term you're comfortable with) and if so how much? This is important, because what people are reacting to is your generalization about anime. Because if you're generalizing from a very very small sample, then you're making a sweeping, uniformed generalization, and that's generally a bad thing to do.

Well as I stated a couple post ago, I probably am over generalizing, a bit, ok probably a lot... my point is that Japanese artist have an interesting habit of making many of their characters look waaaaay to young to be doing any of the things they're shown doing.

And yes I can think of at least one Anime where it is actually a point in the show that the pilots chosen are nothing more than children, Evangelion I think it was...

Also to quote what I said in my first post.

Oh for god's sake, what is it with the Japanese putting what looks to be pre-pubescent children in giant mecha?

I originally said what "looks to be" in my first post, which would not imply that I'm saying that they are in fact kids, when actually what I'm saying is that they do in fact look like kids, to me...

I can't help the fact that they do in fact, look like god damned kids to me, and don't tell me that it's not easy to make characters look older in anime, because I know that it is.

As far as which anime have I seen? Well I'm pretty sure that I can in fact remember every one, I might be able to put a list together fairly quickly, but I assure you that it's probably not going to be as big a list as most of the others members on this forum, so yeah (For now the third time.) I probably am over generalizing and I apologize for that.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well as I stated a couple post ago, I probably am over generalizing, a bit, ok probably a lot... my point is that Japanese artist have an interesting habit of making many of their characters look waaaaay to young to be doing any of the things they're shown doing.

Well its all well and good to say you probably are as ass covering but.. you still did so. and now you sound a bit defensive. I'm not trying to hammer you on this either. I'm simply trying to get you to look at this from another POV. It's something I wish more people woudl do on this board, really, because this is one thing that most often triggers arguments and flamewars and generally kills any discussion.

And yes I can think of at least one Anime where it is actually a point in the show that the pilots chosen are nothing more than children, Evangelion I think it was...

I'm sure someone will point this out, but I think Evangelion is not supposed to be taken seriously in that respect. I remember reading on more than one occasion that Evangelion is one of those animes that pokes fun at 'mecha/giant robot' conventions, and that is supposed to be one of the bigger ones.

I'm also pretty sure that your generalization does not apply to Gundam OR Macross in a broad sense, because both are comprised of a broad variety of individual stories and series that are each different from one another.

I originally said what "looks to be" in my first post, which would not imply that I'm saying that they are in fact kids, when actually what I'm saying is that they do in fact look like kids, to me...

I can't help the fact that they do in fact, look like god damned kids to me, and don't tell me that it's not easy to make characters look older in anime, because I know that it is.

As far as which anime have I seen? Well I'm pretty sure that I can in fact remember every one, I might be able to put a list together fairly quickly, but I assure you that it's probably not going to be as big a list as most of the others members on this forum, so yeah (For now the third time.) I probably am over generalizing and I apologize for that.

The problem is the 'over generalizing' to begin with. Saying 'well I said this before earlier' is not going to excuse that, they're responding to the fact oyu said it and did so anyhow. Or maybe its the way you phrased it thats the problem.

I find that how you phrase things can matter as much or more than what you say.. its not that you express an opinion per se, but it may sound like you're not actually expressing an opinion. Or making a sweeping generalization that others find unfair or insulting. It's something I've been guilty of in the past, and its quite possible to do it without realizing you do.

Part of the problem I personally find is that there's an instinct to respond to personal attacks or criticism - especially on this board - as if it were a personal attack. Again its something I'm guilty of, and I've had to learn the hard way not to let my ego get in the way of discussion. I dont know if there's any ego involved in your response, nor am I saying you are, I'm just saying you may want to reevaluate what you're saying and how it may look to other people, because others do have a different POV on things.

I mean I wouldn't feel terribly happy if someone came into one of my 40K debates and made sweeping generalizations based on a limited data set (actually, they have and it DOES irritate me) so I imagine othrs would get annoyed if I did the same. I expect the same might apply in this case.

[Stark]

If the only example he has is one that HINGES on magical children fighting in monsters, he doesn't have much if a point. Should I make a list of all the shows with teenage pilots WHO SUCK AND FAIL? A repeated theme is that relying on the super abilities of their miracle machines is the only reason they are successful and that they have little actual skill.

And even in Evangelion they're highschool kids, who unless suffering a hormone deficiency are certainly 'pubescent'. He's really just cross the characters don't look the way he wants; he might as well complain that Justice League has so many triangular men.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well thats why I'm bucking the trend and being a spoilsport and actually telling him about this. Call it guilt over being guilty of it in the past. If I can save one person from making my mistakes, I might make the world just that much better!

Plus I'm also afraid this might go the way of an argument like the last giant robot thread did. Call me a diplomat at heart.

As I said its not like this forum needs more people yelling at each other.

[Stark]

If you watched an unlucky combination of shows you could get this kind of impression, which is fine; but resisting correction because you don't like the way characters are drawn is pretty lame. I don't like outrageous balloon tits either, but you don't see me repeating ill-informed statements about it.

Its sad that its one of attitudes things that actually watching anime will explode almost immediately. Amuro Rey would have been killed in seconds if his robot wasn't just plain immune to guns, Banagher Links can't hit jack crap anything with his guns and other pilots run circles around him despite his absurd Space F22, Kamille having mind powers like a frickin Jedi is the only reason he's not worthless as a pilot and him becoming an actual skilled pilot is 40% of his show, and people who ACTUALLY use poorly trained children in combat are shown to be both bad and stupid.

Even in EVN, his only real example, the robits NEED the kids to work because plot magic, and yet they're hardly optimal pilots, and Shinji's who arc revolves around the wrongness of the situation.

If you wanted to talk art, you could cite specific examples where this is used deliberately; for instance, when Banagher Links takes control of his Gundam for the first time, his face changes and his voice drops, because he's growing up and taking up his destiny. Its easy to miss the coming of age element in robit shows, because they only beat you about the head and neck with the theme for three or four hours at a time... but complaining about something that is an actual part of the drama and addressed internally is just lame.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yep, you're right. Remember, I'm a recent 'convert' such as it is. Its not all that long ago I might have made the same sorts of generalizations he did. That's naturally going to color my responses and discussions, but I also learned. For example I'm watching Macross and Gundam (or rather re-watching it, I stopped MSG about 12 or so eps from the end because I am sure I missed some things on the first watch and am rewatching it because I have noted at least 3 distinct changes of opinion in the series from 'OMG the first three eps start slow' to 'wow this is interesting and Amuro is having a hard time adapting to military life this must be that 'wars suck' theme I got told about' to 'wow this isn't as anti-military as I heard, these people are forming a family life and the people are alot more complex than just 'war sucks'. Nevermind being distracted by the obvious effort put into technical consistency to maintain Suspension of disbelief and the plot elements that have evolved over time. There's at least several different plot twists I never expected, but that may be me lacking imagination. ) and the first thing you note is Amuro and the rest of the Gundam/White Base pilots are not prepubescent. Same with Macross.

At the same time, I can imagine why you reacted the way you did. I mean how many LOLS MECHA SUCK type threads have you been subjected to, particularily on this forum? I also imagine you can only take so many sweeping generalizations before you react sharply to it. Which is a major change, since (again) its not too long ago I would have wrongly assumed LOL STARK IS BEING SARCASTIC TROLL or something, which is something alot of people do (again including on this board.)

Again call it optimism or diplomacy, but I think its also vastly better than the yelling.

[Stark]

Its just sad when people who are otherwise interested in 'analysis' of something can take a first-gloss impression like 'whoa those pilots are young' and either inherit a popular view or simply invent their own explanation without considering what it is they're seeing. I mean, a genre of kids shows are about kids growing up? MIND BLOWN BY JAPANESE!

[Connor MacLeod]

Which is why I've CUNNINGLY redirected this conversation into a actual discussion about anime and the sometimes-incorrect perceptions we have of it. I'm holding the hope he might realize he made an error and change his mind and realize analysis can encompass many different depths and dimensions, and they're not neccesarily mutually exclusive.

Besides, isn't it AMAZING how much my mind has opened in the short time since that last 'mecha' thread?

That and I got off into a weird tangent about Gundam for no reason. I'll think of an excuse for that later.

[Connor MacLeod]

Also, on top of the above, I just find this all... liberating for some reason.

[Ire]

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?u= ... goryid=956

Calcs for those interested

[gigabytelord]

Which is why I've CUNNINGLY redirected this conversation into a actual discussion about anime and the sometimes-incorrect perceptions we have of it. I'm holding the hope he might realize he made an error and change his mind and realize analysis can encompass many different depths and dimensions, and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Besides, isn't it AMAZING how much my mind has opened in the short time since that last 'mecha' thread?

That and I got off into a weird tangent about Gundam for no reason. I'll think of an excuse for that later.

Okay I made an error and assumed something incorrect, or rather I repeated an old and stupid generalization, and I should have thought about it before hand.

Is it an incorrect perception, that some characters in some anime, that are clearly stated to be adults, do not look like adults? (e.g. stated to be 20, but looks closer to 14-15) Or am I just not getting something here? Does it have something to do with the fact that it's animation and not live action? Perhaps my opinion is biased? I have not said even once that I dislike anime.

Its just sad when people who are otherwise interested in 'analysis' of something can take a first-gloss impression like 'whoa those pilots are young' and either inherit a popular view or simply invent their own explanation without considering what it is they're seeing. I mean, a genre of kids shows are about kids growing up? MIND BLOWN BY JAPANESE!

I'd say that this is what I did, hell come to think of it what I posted was no different than adding "well I've seen enough hentai to know whats going to happen next" on to the end on my sentence when my DM describes the monster we're about to fight in DnD, a monster who just so happens to have tentacles.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay I made an error and assumed something incorrect, or rather I repeated an old and stupid generalization, and I should have thought about it before hand.

dude, its okay, relax. You made a mistake, we all do that. I certainly do. What matters is you learn from it and don't repeat it again (because if you make a habit out of it.. well then you deserve to get yelled at.)

Is it an incorrect perception, that some characters in some anime, that are clearly stated to be adults, do not look like adults? (e.g. stated to be 20, but looks closer to 14-15) Or am I just not getting something here? Does it have something to do with the fact that it's animation and not live action? Perhaps my opinion is biased? I have not said even once that I dislike anime.

Maybe. It could be any one of those things, but I dont neccesarily know if I'd attribute it to artwork or such. AT least in mobile suit gundam none of them looked particularily 'prepubescent' and some of them were adult (or young adult.) And even in some of the more 'zany' giant robot shows I remember watching (like several iterations of Voltron) you still never really had 'prepubescent' teenagers. They all look pretty mature in Macross too, but that's purely subjective impressions.

Of course it might also just be preconceptions. Kinda like the whole 'mecha sucks' thing that crops up when it comes to REALISM debates. I had that discussion with Stark last time and he pointed out how alot of examples of giant robot anime that don't follow a particular stereotype approach: Gundam and Patlabor for example.

I find it doesn't hurt to examine your own ideas on something and look how your conceptions of it might be affected by other sources (what others say, what you've read on the internet, etc.) And the best way (which again Stark has pointed out before) is to really just watch the stuff for oyurself and THEN form your opinions. At least then, it would be educated opinions.

I'd say that this is what I did, hell come to think of it what I posted was no different than adding "well I've seen enough hentai to know whats going to happen next" on to the end on my sentence when my DM describes the monster we're about to fight in DnD, a monster who just so happens to have tentacles.

It could be. I suspect it wouldn't have been so bad had you either phraesd it differently, or had actually given an indication you'd watched some anime and you were basing your experiences on that. Or possibly both. As I said, alot of it is not just what you say, but how you say it and why you do. A good skill - especially when it comes to SDN - is actually watching what you say, thinking about what you say before you type it, and considering how other people might react to you saying it. Even if you don' intend to offend or annoy by sounding uniformed, it can easily come across that way because all people have to go on is words.