Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

[Batman]

In all fairness, we're talking about lobbing chunks of matter from hyperspace into realspace, which is essentially what happens every time a not individually hyperspace-capable ship uses a jump gate. Whether or not it's any use, throwing rocks from hyperspace (as long as the window is open) seems feasible.

[cmdrjones]

In all fairness, we're talking about lobbing chunks of matter from hyperspace into realspace, which is essentially what happens every time a not individually hyperspace-capable ship uses a jump gate. Whether or not it's any use, throwing rocks from hyperspace (as long as the window is open) seems feasible.

^This.

Now, the Centauri have a targeting problem.... I'd argue they could overcome that with some help from the Shadows or Drakh... as I said before even B5's primitive scanners should pick up the insane amount of energy an ISD puts out...

[cmdrjones]

Well that depends on 'how' not there the ISD is. Since B5 ships 'are' blind to what happens in realspace outside communications through a gate/jump point, if the ISD vamoosed 20 minutes ago all they lose is the fuel they spent getting there. It's when the ISD is 75,000km to the upper left of where they expected it that things get ugly, at least for the ship opening the jump point. The rest might still get away since I suspect once the sacrificial lamb is killed, the point will close so the Imperials can't chase them.

I don't think this is the case, or how did the minbari target EA ships in realspace and hit them w jump engines?

[Lord Revan]

Well that depends on 'how' not there the ISD is. Since B5 ships 'are' blind to what happens in realspace outside communications through a gate/jump point, if the ISD vamoosed 20 minutes ago all they lose is the fuel they spent getting there. It's when the ISD is 75,000km to the upper left of where they expected it that things get ugly, at least for the ship opening the jump point. The rest might still get away since I suspect once the sacrificial lamb is killed, the point will close so the Imperials can't chase them.

I don't think this is the case, or how did the minbari target EA ships in realspace and hit them w jump engines?

in the TV movie? they didn't target them ,they didn't they had lure (the shuttle type) to get the earthforce ships into the target area and probably inform them when they were in range (real to hyper coms exist thru the jump gates)

in fact a similar tactic is what I suggested the centauri could use hit ISDs with the massdrivers, use a shuttle or something similary expendble craft(on autopilot ofc no point in wasting pilots) to lure the imperials into the danger zone, then jump in and fire.

[Borgholio]

We are making this too complicated. The Minbari were able to target Earthforce ships so accurately with their jump drives that they could disintegrate the Earth ships WITH THE PORTAL ITSELF. They didn't have to shoot weapons except to destroy the other ships that were not directly hit by the portal. An ISD is a massive target...bigger than the Earth ships used during the war. Why not just open a portal inside an ISD and see what happens?

[Lord Revan]

We are making this too complicated. The Minbari were able to target Earthforce ships so accurately with their jump drives that they could disintegrate the Earth ships WITH THE PORTAL ITSELF. They didn't have to shoot weapons except to destroy the other ships that were not directly hit by the portal. An ISD is a massive target...bigger than the Earth ships used during the war. Why not just open a portal inside an ISD and see what happens?

cause only minbari and the old ones can target their jump points accurately enough everyone just doesn't have jump drivers that are accurate enough.

[Borgholio]

cause only minbari and the old ones can target their jump points accurately enough everyone just doesn't have jump drivers that are accurate enough.

As of the Earth / Minbari war...yes. But technology has improved to the point by the end of the series that other races are catching up. The Warlock destroyer for instance is supposed to be able to take on a Minbari War Cruiser on equal footing. So I would expect jump drive targeting to be improved. If not, then why not just ask the Minbari to do it themselves?

[Lord Revan]

cause only minbari and the old ones can target their jump points accurately enough everyone just doesn't have jump drivers that are accurate enough.

As of the Earth / Minbari war...yes. But technology has improved to the point by the end of the series that other races are catching up. The Warlock destroyer for instance is supposed to be able to take on a Minbari War Cruiser on equal footing. So I would expect jump drive targeting to be improved. If not, then why not just ask the Minbari to do it themselves?

well the thing is that the War cruiser isn't really that impressive once you get past the stealth system, I wouldn't be surpriced if an Omega could take out a Minbari War Cruiser that's not running it's stealth systems and I pretty sure that the Centauri ships could give minbari ships of equal status a run for their money.

but jump drives are one of the more complex parts of B5 tech and the Minbari are quite ahead everyone else there. You got remember we're talking about the Centauri here not Earthforce. Also the Warlock was a result of tech exchange with the minbari (which is why it has artificial grav instead of rotating sections).

[Borgholio]

but jump drives are one of the more complex parts of B5 tech and the Minbari are quite ahead everyone else there. You got remember we're talking about the Centauri here not Earthforce. Also the Warlock was a result of tech exchange with the minbari (which is why it has artificial grav instead of rotating sections).

Good point. We never really do hear much about jump drive accuracy...just firepower, stealth, speed, etc...

I still do wonder what would happen if a hyperspace portal opens inside an ISD...

[Lord Revan]

but jump drives are one of the more complex parts of B5 tech and the Minbari are quite ahead everyone else there. You got remember we're talking about the Centauri here not Earthforce. Also the Warlock was a result of tech exchange with the minbari (which is why it has artificial grav instead of rotating sections).

Good point. We never really do hear much about jump drive accuracy...just firepower, stealth, speed, etc...

I still do wonder what would happen if a hyperspace portal opens inside an ISD...

nothing good (to the ISD) I'd assume since getting caught by the edge of a opening jump point destroyed most of the fleet the Lexinton was in

[Borgholio]

Right so if the Empire invades the B-5 verse, then presumably only the Minbari would be able to inflict serious casualties on them.

[Highlord Laan]

Right so if the Empire invades the B-5 verse, then presumably only the Minbari would be able to inflict serious casualties on them.

You can count the Vorlons in that group too.

[Borgholio]

Forgive me if I missed it, but were we talking pre or post-shadow war?

[Batman]

Late 2258 as per the OP so all the gang is here to play.

[Patroklos]

Can you open a jump gate inside the volume of a SW shielded target? Presumably opening a gate involves energies of some sore, and energy is exactly what SW shields quite effectively interdict.

[Borgholio]

You're basically talking about a rip in the fabric of space itself. The rip would be happening within the ship itself so somehow I doubt the shields will stop it.

[LaCroix]

You're basically talking about a rip in the fabric of space itself. The rip would be happening within the ship itself so somehow I doubt the shields will stop it.

IF you can open such a rift in an area with more matter than "empty space" density.

Logic demands that if such an action was possible, it certainly would have been weaponized, already, by someone, so I doubt that it works that way.
Reasons, in order according to probablility:
a) doesn't work because shields work against the energy you are using to open the rip, disrupting the process.
b) doesn't work because the ship is to dense to have the rip form in there, which means it either doesn't open or opens between you and the target. (
Probably not opening at all - after all, you need to create the rip quite far away from your own ship, which implies your own presence might disturb it. Same would mean that the space between you and the target ship is completely unsuited, barring a "gravitational fields cancel each other out zone")
c) the opening of the rip isn't damaging to the surroundings, and would simply grow out and around the object without any effect on it.

[Borgholio]

IF you can open such a rift in an area with more matter than "empty space" density.

You can. Jump portals have been opened within ships before and within planetary atmospheres as dense as Jupiter's.

[LaCroix]

IF you can open such a rift in an area with more matter than "empty space" density.

You can. Jump portals have been opened within ships before and within planetary atmospheres as dense as Jupiter's.

The question is if you can open it inside a ship from the outside - is that the case? The jump drive might still work as a DET weapon if you attempt to open a point inside the ship, but I doubt the energy would bypass the shields and hull of a ship when it even interacts with combustible atmospheres...

The only weaponized uses I know are outside generation - which would once more come down to the question - how much can the shields handle.

Jump points are strictly one way and outgoing points are distinguished by a red-shift, while incoming jump points posses a blue-shift. If for instance one jump point is opened inside of another, the staggering release of energy would almost instantly cause an enormous explosion. During the Earth-Minbari War, Earthforce briefly experimented with the offensive applications of this tactic though quickly dubbing it the "Bonehead Maneuver", as none of the Earthforce ships were able to clear the blast radius before being destroyed.[3][4]

Jump points do however have other tactical uses in warfare. A notable Minbari tactic is to lure an enemy fleet or task force into a predetermined location and then open a jump point right in their midst. Any ship that makes contact with the outer edge of the vortex is either instantly destroyed or severely crippled and the remaining ships are caught by surprise and easy targets for the Minbari Cruiser that has just jumped into the middle of them. During the Earth-Minbari War, the Drala Fi used this tactic to devastate the task force lead by the EAS Lexington.[5]

For safety reasons, jump points are normally opened only in deep space, away from any potential navigational hazards though with sufficiently accurate targeting information it is possible to open a jump point within, and safely transit into, a planetary atmosphere.[6] However, due to the massive release of energy involved, doing so in a highly combustible atmosphere will cause a suitably large explosion and shock wave.[7]

[Borgholio]

Well if the jump portal opens outside the Stardestroyer and the outer edge hits the shields...it's anybody's guess how that will play out. Imperial shields are very strong but we have never quantified how powerful the outer edge of the vortex is. Slicing through the relatively lightly armored hull of an Earthforce cruiser doesn't compare to the shields and armored hull of an ISD.

The question should be, does opening a portal from hyperspace require interaction with realspace to work, or is it fully within the realm of hyperspace? For instance, if you have a paper bag and you punch your fist through it from the inside...you don't need anything on the outside to help you. Your fist goes right through. With a hyperspace portal, if it can be opened from within hyperspace regardless of what is the way in realspace, then even an ISD could be gutted by it.

[Patroklos]

Presumably in order to get the energies into hyperspace from your real space location you are manipulating real space in some fashion to do so. You are in real space, how can you not?

The simple answer is you are punching a hole, and probably doing it from the side (real or hyper) you happen to be in. Aren't hyper gates/portals one way? If so that's a pretty strong indicator as to which way and from where the energies are flowing. However, you are assuming that hyperspace is not interacting with real space or visa versa. In SW hyperspace for instance gravity well effect hyperspace, so in B5 you might not be able to open a portal to exist if a significant mass exists in the corresponding real space location. Just a thought, no idea if it works that way.

I think its safe to say that however hyperspace works in B5 it involves some manipulation of the physical location the portal opens. Who know what that is. As far as opening one nearby yeah that could work I suppose, it depends on the actual damage and in what form that edge does.

[LaCroix]

The problem is that if you put energy in a location where mass exists, said energy affects that mass instead of doing whatever else you had intended.

Pushing out of hyperspace, though, I guess it would be pretty much luck to have the point of exit (which starts as a point from which the portal extends from) appear within an object, since you can't see the realspace from hyperspace, and distance/direction is a bit wonky in there - even beam weapons do bend. So it's not unthinkable that the exit would seek the path of least resistance and move to a space nearby the intended exit point that isn't currently occupied by a gravity well (and just the Hypermatter of an ISD alone would qualify as a big gravity well).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?

Because the mass of the asteroid combined with its relative velocity make it a threat to the ISD.

The asteroids launched by the Centauri mass driver are smaller in mass and aren't going very fast (relative the the Centauri warship) when launched. They will be going much faster by the time they reach the surface of Narn.

It is time for some geometry, i think.

Starting assumptions:
The camera field of view in Babylon 5 is constant
The Narn Homeworld, as a planet with 1 G, is the same size as earth.

Ok. First thing's first. We have to figure out how many degrees the field of view in babylon 5 occupies.

For that, we will use the simple expedient of one of the support struts on an Aurora Class Starfury's cockpit. To get that, I found one of the official schematics, calibrated from the length of the ship, and assumed the camera in a certain battle scene in season 2 is placed behind the head of the pilot.



Distance from Camera to Strut, approximately .84 meters
Width of Strut: .3 meters
Angular Size of Strut: 20.249 degrees
Camera FOV:86.83 degrees

From this image



I can get the planet's angular size by finding a 90 degree angle (and accompanying quarter-circle) that matches the curvature of the parts of the planet that are visible. The radius is 51.7 degrees, which puts the planet's angular size at 103.4 degrees. This is at approximately the same range as the mass driver on Londo's ship, judging from the camera pan, and the mag-rails still in frame.

For a planet the size of earth, with that angular size, that puts the distance to planetary center at 6575 km
Planetary radius is 6371, so they are orbiting at a distance of 254 km, or approximately the orbital distance of the ISS.

Impact happens in 4.13 seconds post launch. This puts asteroid travel at a mean velocity of 61.5 l km/sec. Acceleration due to the planetary gravity is negligible. In point of fact...

The beam of a Primus Class Battlecruiser is 1023 meters. The battlecruiser immediately in front of the camera when it fires has an angular size of 53.44 degrees, and is thus at a range of 1016 meters at its approximate center. Assuming the launcher is at approximately the same range, the projectile when launches has an angular size of 3.5 degrees, and is thus 63 meters wide. Assuming it is at least a solid chunk of rock with a density of 3000 kg/m^3, impact energy will be 180 megatons.

If mostly irony, closer to 480 megatons.

[Alyrium Denryle]

cause only minbari and the old ones can target their jump points accurately enough everyone just doesn't have jump drivers that are accurate enough.

As of the Earth / Minbari war...yes. But technology has improved to the point by the end of the series that other races are catching up. The Warlock destroyer for instance is supposed to be able to take on a Minbari War Cruiser on equal footing. So I would expect jump drive targeting to be improved. If not, then why not just ask the Minbari to do it themselves?

well the thing is that the War cruiser isn't really that impressive once you get past the stealth system, I wouldn't be surpriced if an Omega could take out a Minbari War Cruiser that's not running it's stealth systems and I pretty sure that the Centauri ships could give minbari ships of equal status a run for their money.

but jump drives are one of the more complex parts of B5 tech and the Minbari are quite ahead everyone else there. You got remember we're talking about the Centauri here not Earthforce. Also the Warlock was a result of tech exchange with the minbari (which is why it has artificial grav instead of rotating sections).

An Omega most certainly can. Its beam weapons under the most conservative estimates I can pull off (Melting through 3.5 meters of Aluminium alloy as they rake along the hull of another Omega) have an output of 3.8 kt/sec, anything else including carbon-carbon composites, or other perfectly reasonable estimates for depth of penetration or partial vaporization, and it gets bigger very very fast. Hundreds of kt/sec are achieved very easily.

Given their lack of shields and impulse shock due to material vaporizing faster than the speed of sound, both are perfectly capable of destroying eachother. It depends on who gets their shots off first and hits their targets.

Minbari ships are glass cannons. The Sharlin dates back to the first shadow war (seriously, we see them in archive footage along with the Nail fighters). I suspect that, because the Minbari could not armor their ships sufficiently to protect them, they focused on not being hit and using overwhelming firepower in the hopes of taking out shadow vessels before they fired their death beams.

Their beam weapons are overkill against EA ships. But the EA has really nasty beam weapons on their own against a poorly armored target.

When the prometheus met the grey council, they managed to wreck several minbari capital ships with weapons that, by the time 2258 rolls around, are considered secondary batteries. One shot from a plasma cannon completely fucked up the command and control center of the council's ship which is deep in the interior as far as I can tell. Through the impulse shock alone.

[cmdrjones]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?

Because the mass of the asteroid combined with its relative velocity make it a threat to the ISD.

The asteroids launched by the Centauri mass driver are smaller in mass and aren't going very fast (relative the the Centauri warship) when launched. They will be going much faster by the time they reach the surface of Narn.

It is time for some geometry, i think.

Starting assumptions:
The camera field of view in Babylon 5 is constant
The Narn Homeworld, as a planet with 1 G, is the same size as earth.

Ok. First thing's first. We have to figure out how many degrees the field of view in babylon 5 occupies.

For that, we will use the simple expedient of one of the support struts on an Aurora Class Starfury's cockpit. To get that, I found one of the official schematics, calibrated from the length of the ship, and assumed the camera in a certain battle scene in season 2 is placed behind the head of the pilot.



Distance from Camera to Strut, approximately .84 meters
Width of Strut: .3 meters
Angular Size of Strut: 20.249 degrees
Camera FOV:86.83 degrees

From this image



I can get the planet's angular size by finding a 90 degree angle (and accompanying quarter-circle) that matches the curvature of the parts of the planet that are visible. The radius is 51.7 degrees, which puts the planet's angular size at 103.4 degrees. This is at approximately the same range as the mass driver on Londo's ship, judging from the camera pan, and the mag-rails still in frame.

For a planet the size of earth, with that angular size, that puts the distance to planetary center at 6575 km
Planetary radius is 6371, so they are orbiting at a distance of 254 km, or approximately the orbital distance of the ISS.

Impact happens in 4.13 seconds post launch. This puts asteroid travel at a mean velocity of 61.5 l km/sec. Acceleration due to the planetary gravity is negligible. In point of fact...

The beam of a Primus Class Battlecruiser is 1023 meters. The battlecruiser immediately in front of the camera when it fires has an angular size of 53.44 degrees, and is thus at a range of 1016 meters at its approximate center. Assuming the launcher is at approximately the same range, the projectile when launches has an angular size of 3.5 degrees, and is thus 63 meters wide. Assuming it is at least a solid chunk of rock with a density of 3000 kg/m^3, impact energy will be 180 megatons.

If mostly irony, closer to 480 megatons.

So, if mostly an Iron asteroid, it does about half a gigaton? Hmm, that means they'd HAVE to hit the ISD with about 400 at once? LOL. I guess this is reasonable evidence that the Asteroid that plows into the ISD Bridge in ESB did so after a whole crap ton of others hit it? or several much larger ones?
Or are the ISD's glass cannons as well, just a couple of orders of magnitude larger than Minbari cruisers?
Trying to get a feel for the scale here.