Jedi vs Protoss Zealot

[Lord Revan]

My point was however that we've seen protoss fight and it's not signifigantly faster then the speeds Jedi fight with, also if the Zealot armor would boot the speed of the user as much as some people are implying then Dark Templar would have made a void powered version of it as the technology would have simply been too valueble to ignore. We do know after all that Dark Templar use certain aspects of protoss technology only adapted to different power source.

And as it was stated even the pre-SC2 Dark Templars had enough of the tech base to have at least some space capable ships.

[Me2005]

What else would you call Force-assisted jumping, running, and dodging?

If that's what you're talking about, sure. I thought it was some kind of force-push on yourself that made him move erratically. Fenix will just see it as a run/jump/dodge, not some unusual thing.

On a side note, this arena is also short on things Obi-Wan can use for cover or hiding places, as Obi-Wan himself demonstrated in Episode II.

Eh, if they start facing each other in the open, with no distractions, it's unlikely Obi-Wan can use them. He was able to hide with the confusion of all the fighting going on. As a duel, he'd have to blind or distract Fenix.

[Imperial528]

The arena is the Genosis arena, and I think you've got that totally backwards. Fenix's size would be a disadvantage in a closed-in environment, while Obi-Wan's would be a limitation out in the open. Look at Darth Vader vs. Luke in the Emporer's throne room vs. in Cloud City. In cloud city (relatively open) Luke gets stomped by the larger Vader, while in the throne room he hides in places Vader can't see/reach/fit and ambushes him. Throwing things to further confuse a closed-in area would give Obi-Wan an advantage there for sure, while in the arena Fenix can just sidestep.

I should elaborate, then. The closed environment I was thinking of would be hallways or corridors, places that are relatively clean despite being cramped. The Emperor's throne room in my opinion was a rather open environment, but it was cluttered by walkways, railings, structures, etc. that gave the more nimble Luke plenty of opportunities to hide. However unlike Vader, Fenix is not a near-dead man kept alive and walking by a suit of armor, so I think he would be much more agile than Vader.

And in this arena, we see that there isn't much to throw. I don't remember ever seeing a Jedi TK themselves, so I'd ask you to prove that's a real thing.

For the TK, the best example in the OT would be Luke's jump out from the carbonite pit on Cloud City. In the prequels we have the various instances of outright acrobatics that many Jedi and Sith are observed doing that often exceed human ability and in some cases would be outright impossible without the Force.

If by this you mean that Obi-Wan has more options (run, jump, climb where Fenix cannot easily go), then I'd agree. I think Fenix is probably consistently faster, excepting possible short-sprints from Kenobi, with greater endurance (helped by his power armor) however.

Yes. I think Fenix's powered enhancements would let him keep up with or catch Obi-wan in an all-out run, though it is debatable how long that would take.

Now, as for the Geonosis arena (this is what I get for skimming the opening post), I think the most likely outcome is a equal game cat-and-mouse between the two until either one decides that the objective is unobtainable and attempts to flee, or one gets sufficiently exhausted or battered such that the other achieves the upper hand.

My point was however that we've seen protoss fight and it's not signifigantly faster then the speeds Jedi fight with, also if the Zealot armor would boot the speed of the user as much as some people are implying then Dark Templar would have made a void powered version of it as the technology would have simply been too valueble to ignore. We do know after all that Dark Templar use certain aspects of protoss technology only adapted to different power source.

And as it was stated even the pre-SC2 Dark Templars had enough of the tech base to have at least some space capable ships.

Not necessarily. As previously noted by others, the Dark Templar are primarily focused on stealth and maneuverability. Cybernetic enhancements can easily become a burden if they require more effort to conceal.

Additionally, the Shakuras Protoss lack the large industrial base that even the post-Brood War Khalai Protoss had, only after reunification as the Daelaam would they have access to a larger industrial base. It may simply be impractical (even post-unification) for the Dark Templar to outfit all of them with cybernetics, which they in general seem to lack compared to the Khalai Protoss.

[Lord Revan]

Well I watched the Legacy of the Void opening cinematic (it's avaible at blizzard's SC Youtube channel) and it shows armored Zealots and High Templars battling Zerg and I'm still not seeing this super-speed people are implying should exist sure they're fast and with the Khala they essentially act with 1 mind so if 1 member of the group sees a threat they all see it.

here's a link to the vid as I don't know how to embed vids

[Terralthra]

Yeah, I've asked for evidence that Zealots in general (or Fenix in particular) is particularly faster or stronger than Obi-Wan "runs fast enough to blur, overpowers cyborgs/robots in melee weapon binds" before, but never got any. Is there evidence of Zealots winning physical contests of strength with, say, Terran marines in power armor? Because Kenobi has done so.

I do note the shield in that video (around 1:20) appears to be a bubble shield.

[Simon_Jester]

What else would you call Force-assisted jumping, running, and dodging?

If that's what you're talking about, sure. I thought it was some kind of force-push on yourself that made him move erratically. Fenix will just see it as a run/jump/dodge, not some unusual thing.

Oh, I don't know, if Fenix sees some of the acrobatics prequel Jedi get up to (or for that matter original trilogy Jedi, with Luke being pretty damn spry in his later fights)... he might go "wait what humans can't do that."

But yeah, I know what you mean, you're not wrong.

On a side note, this arena is also short on things Obi-Wan can use for cover or hiding places, as Obi-Wan himself demonstrated in Episode II.

Eh, if they start facing each other in the open, with no distractions, it's unlikely Obi-Wan can use them. He was able to hide with the confusion of all the fighting going on. As a duel, he'd have to blind or distract Fenix.

Well, I was thinking more of the first scene in the arena, when Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme are on the run from these giant monstrosities that are trying to kill them in front of a cheering Geonosian audience.

That arena did not give Obi-Wan a lot of opportunities to use cover, hiding places, and so on. Much less so than, say, the rancor pit in Jabba's palace.

Well I watched the Legacy of the Void opening cinematic (it's avaible at blizzard's SC Youtube channel) and it shows armored Zealots and High Templars battling Zerg and I'm still not seeing this super-speed people are implying should exist sure they're fast and with the Khala they essentially act with 1 mind so if 1 member of the group sees a threat they all see it.

here's a link to the vid as I don't know how to embed vids

A High Templar exhibits what appears to be blurring, inhuman speed at 1:30 or so. And large numbers of Protoss running quite fast, if not blurringly so, at around 2:55.

Also we have Protoss repeatedly getting into up close and personal physical clashes with Zerg, who almost have to be much stronger than human, and holding their own, which suggests that their cybernetics and physiques do make them significantly stronger than human, although not necessarily stronger than a guy like Grievous.

[Tribble]

Another difference is that Zealots usually fight in groups and are connected via a psychic link, whereas Dark Templar tend to fight alone and are not connected to other protoss. Naturally fighting together while in a psychic link would be a big advantage in large-scale engagements, but could this prove to be a problem when a Zealot is forced to fight alone? Fenix could be at an even greater disadvantage because he would be fighting in a way he is not accustomed to, without anyone to support him either physically or telepathically.

[Lord Revan]

Well I watched the Legacy of the Void opening cinematic (it's avaible at blizzard's SC Youtube channel) and it shows armored Zealots and High Templars battling Zerg and I'm still not seeing this super-speed people are implying should exist sure they're fast and with the Khala they essentially act with 1 mind so if 1 member of the group sees a threat they all see it.

here's a link to the vid as I don't know how to embed vids

A High Templar exhibits what appears to be blurring, inhuman speed at 1:30 or so. And large numbers of Protoss running quite fast, if not blurringly so, at around 2:55.

Also we have Protoss repeatedly getting into up close and personal physical clashes with Zerg, who almost have to be much stronger than human, and holding their own, which suggests that their cybernetics and physiques do make them significantly stronger than human, although not necessarily stronger than a guy like Grievous.

I'm not claiming the Protoss ain't fast they certainly are fast.

As for your examples the High Templar isn't moving that fast at that range a speed fast enough to blur the moving object would seem almost like a teleport, the blur you see is actually the first the normal ingame movement animation of the high templars is shown out of gameplay and it's an illusion cause by powers of the High Temlar and not due to speed and while the zealot charge was certainly fast it's a charge towards the enemy so we can't know how long they can maintain it and also we can't know how well they can change directions during it.

again my argument isn't that Protoss aren't fast as they certainly are fast but rather my argument is that they're not fast enough for to provide a signifigant advantage again the jedi.

Another difference is that Zealots usually fight in groups and are connected via a psychic link, whereas Dark Templar tend to fight alone and are not connected to other protoss. Naturally fighting together while in a psychic link would be a big advantage in large-scale engagements, but could this prove to be a problem when a Zealot is forced to fight alone? Fenix could be at an even greater disadvantage because he would be fighting in a way he is not accustomed to, without anyone to support him either physically or telepathically.

I suppose it might effect raw recruits signifigantly, but I'd assume that veterans like Fenix would have faced a situation where he was the only one left of his group and thus wouldn't be shocked/distracted about it.

Basically Fenix isn't just a random Zealot we happen to know the name of he's a veteran zealot that's something of a legend even among his own people.

[Me2005]

Well I watched the Legacy of the Void opening cinematic (it's avaible at blizzard's SC Youtube channel) and it shows armored Zealots and High Templars battling Zerg and I'm still not seeing this super-speed people are implying should exist...

I'm not sure how to use that video - there is a ton of replay speed stuff going on. The Zealots could be matrix-fast, but the video slows down or speeds up to let us see what's going on.

They seem to react pretty quick to a group of hydrolisks popping up from underneath them.

[Simon_Jester]

Another difference is that Zealots usually fight in groups and are connected via a psychic link, whereas Dark Templar tend to fight alone and are not connected to other protoss. Naturally fighting together while in a psychic link would be a big advantage in large-scale engagements, but could this prove to be a problem when a Zealot is forced to fight alone? Fenix could be at an even greater disadvantage because he would be fighting in a way he is not accustomed to, without anyone to support him either physically or telepathically.

Possible, though we have little external evidence for it.

A dear friend once did come up with an alien species that was explicitly afraid to fight alone despite being immensely brave and tolerant of casualties in large groups... but I've never seen any indication the Protoss work that way.