Imperial Guard with Space Marine Gunships

[Simon_Jester]

Well, the Ecclesiarchy has potentially nigh-unlimited ability to convince brainwashed Imperium citizens to enlist into its doom troopers in theory, but is forbidden from organizing an army after an Ecclesiarchy leader essentially took over the Imperium. The Sisters of Battle are basically a way of lawyering around this because the prohibition is on "fighting men," and apparently nobody cared enough to stop them.

Probably because, as you point out, a hundred thousand Sisters of Battle is effectively nothing on a galactic scale, and is pretty irrelevant even on a planetary scale. Except that it's then hard to imagine them having anything other than very local impact, and unlikely that they'd do anything significant in most plotlines- they show up way too often to be that rare.

[Lonestar]

One might question if you have Titans on the field, why you even bother to employ space marines? They make sense as regime protection units. but dictators usually try to avoid using those units in conventional battles for good reason. And certainly if you do use them, use them last, not first. Even Saddam with his deluded Arab Warrior mentality he held onto when the American totally did not capture the airport, understood that idea.

Well, in the case of the events of Storm of Iron the Chaos forces needed to storm and take the contents of the vault buried deep in the fortress more or less intact. Presumably Titans aren't really useful for room clearing, while Space Marines would be better suited for that than even the best un-augmented humans, especially if the structure was built with allowing easy movement of Astartes inside in mind.

[Lonestar]

Probably because, as you point out, a hundred thousand Sisters of Battle is effectively nothing on a galactic scale, and is pretty irrelevant even on a planetary scale. Except that it's then hard to imagine them having anything other than very local impact, and unlikely that they'd do anything significant in most plotlines- they show up way too often to be that rare.

You could add that, if the Caiphias Cain novels are anything to go by, the Imperial Guard has a lot of contempt for the fighting ability of the Sisters of Battle. Given the how ineffective the Frateris Militia were during the War of the Beast, this seems to be in keeping with the military history of the Ecclesiarchy.

[NecronLord]

It's worth noting that the numbers come from Gav Thrope's sisters of battle codex in 2nd edition and 3rd edition Codex Witch Hunters. I love Gav but he's extremely minimalist. In that he presents there as only being a few hundred professional soldiers on Alaitoc craftworld, for instance.

[Elheru Aran]

Those *are* pretty lousy numbers. Maybe they're only the numbers of Sisters who are actually at their own convent rather than out in the field or something? /hopeful

I suppose it could be partly explained by an assumption that, tabletop aside, the Sisters aren't as much of an active military as they would like to present themselves. Rather, they're more of a glorified bodyguard for the Ecclesiarchy higher-ups, occasionally being seconded to Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors.

Of course that falls apart when you consider the likely scale of both the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus, but what can you do...

[Sea Skimmer]

Well, in the case of the events of Storm of Iron the Chaos forces needed to storm and take the contents of the vault buried deep in the fortress more or less intact. Presumably Titans aren't really useful for room clearing, while Space Marines would be better suited for that than even the best un-augmented humans, especially if the structure was built with allowing easy movement of Astartes inside in mind.

Clearly the Titans need entrenching tools, depending on how deep is deep!

Space Marines certainly do make sense for room clearing, you'd send them in last in that case, but it should be painfully suicidal in actual deep underground tunnels. I \\Really how can it not be if the enemy built any defenses in the first place against it? Sci fi does love its elaborate underground bases so fair to assume they exist.

really don't see how it could not be if the enemy had actually built in any defenses, let alone super elaborate sci fi ones, or even simple be large ones like chunks of tunnel they can flood with 100ft thick plugs of sand filled with landmines.

Storm the bunker is something of a staple of this kind of fiction precisely I think to justify close quarter whatever, but pretty quickly it would just make more sense and not even necessarily take more time to drill from the surface with some wildcatter equipment and plant explosives above them. You could do a lot of damage to them without ever collapsing the whole place, which is kind of constant problem for a ground attack anyway. Drilling 2000ft would take under 72 hours right now and 8000ft perhaps two weeks. If they can build bunkers deeper then that then I mean, yeah, good luck storming em.

[Lonestar]

Goal was to steal Astartes geneseed stocks, there are a limited number of places in the Imperium outside of Chapter facilities that have large amounts of them. Presumably they couldn't just cut power and start digging, they needed to take the place for they could recover the material.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to you or me, but then, the leadership of the Archenemy is more or less the Traitor Legions rather than standard humans, and they call the shots. Compare this to the Imperium where un-augmented humans run the show.

[NecronLord]

Storm the bunker is something of a staple of this kind of fiction precisely I think to justify close quarter whatever, but pretty quickly it would just make more sense and not even necessarily take more time to drill from the surface with some wildcatter equipment and plant explosives above them. You could do a lot of damage to them without ever collapsing the whole place, which is kind of constant problem for a ground attack anyway. Drilling 2000ft would take under 72 hours right now and 8000ft perhaps two weeks. If they can build bunkers deeper then that then I mean, yeah, good luck storming em.

They even have a combat-breaching drill vehicle for the Imperial Guard for just this sort of thing, though it's built horizontally of course.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Storm the bunker is something of a staple of this kind of fiction precisely I think to justify close quarter whatever, but pretty quickly it would just make more sense and not even necessarily take more time to drill from the surface with some wildcatter equipment and plant explosives above them. You could do a lot of damage to them without ever collapsing the whole place, which is kind of constant problem for a ground attack anyway. Drilling 2000ft would take under 72 hours right now and 8000ft perhaps two weeks. If they can build bunkers deeper then that then I mean, yeah, good luck storming em.

They even have a combat-breaching drill vehicle for the Imperial Guard for just this sort of thing, though it's built horizontally of course.

There are, or were, three tunnelers the Astartes, the Guard, and the AdMech used to breach bunkers and the like, the Mole, the Termite, and the Hellbore.

[Elheru Aran]

There are, or were, three tunnelers the Astartes, the Guard, and the AdMech used to breach bunkers and the like, the Mole, the Termite, and the Hellbore.

'were' is definitely the correct verb tense, they went out with the Squats and can probably be largely assumed to be Squat technology.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

There are, or were, three tunnelers the Astartes, the Guard, and the AdMech used to breach bunkers and the like, the Mole, the Termite, and the Hellbore.

'were' is definitely the correct verb tense, they went out with the Squats and can probably be largely assumed to be Squat technology.

Don't get me started on how GW handled the Squats....

[Elheru Aran]

There are, or were, three tunnelers the Astartes, the Guard, and the AdMech used to breach bunkers and the like, the Mole, the Termite, and the Hellbore.

'were' is definitely the correct verb tense, they went out with the Squats and can probably be largely assumed to be Squat technology.

Don't get me started on how GW handled the Squats....

It's starting to look like Sisters of Battle might go the same way. They already screwed the Bretonnians out of Warhammer Fantasy, excuse me Age of Sigmar.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

It's starting to look like Sisters of Battle might go the same way. They already screwed the Bretonnians out of Warhammer Fantasy, excuse me Age of Sigmar.

Makes me glad I stopped playing 40K then. I suppose the bluies will be the next to go at this rate.

[Elheru Aran]

It's starting to look like Sisters of Battle might go the same way. They already screwed the Bretonnians out of Warhammer Fantasy, excuse me Age of Sigmar.

Makes me glad I stopped playing 40K then. I suppose the bluies will be the next to go at this rate.

Nah, Tau are doing fine. Everybody likes a shooty army (until they get in range, then the butthurt starts). 40K in general tends to have enough fans loyal to each faction that they won't eliminate them without serious reason, but Sisters of Battle just don't have a whole lot of players to start with (mostly because GW can't be arsed to give them decent rules, units, or even plastic models...). Bretonnians got snuffed because they didn't fit very well into the Age of Sigmar mold. 7th Edition (at least I think it's 7th) won't be *that* drastic of a change to 40K, but it's looking very likely that they'll start leaning 40K more conclusively towards the Time of Ending while whipping out 30K big-time.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Nah, Tau are doing fine. Everybody likes a shooty army (until they get in range, then the butthurt starts).

"Tau are so OP. Please nerf." "Tau are bullshit, wah, wah, wah!" "Tau are so overrated, bla, bla, bla!"

Yeah.

40K in general tends to have enough fans loyal to each faction that they won't eliminate them without serious reason, but Sisters of Battle just don't have a whole lot of players to start with (mostly because GW can't be arsed to give them decent rules, units, or even plastic models...)

That just sucks.

Bretonnians got snuffed because they didn't fit very well into the Age of Sigmar mold.

How can you not have WH Fantasy without everyone's favorite knights-errant?! Goddamn.

7th Edition (at least I think it's 7th) won't be *that* drastic of a change to 40K, but it's looking very likely that they'll start leaning 40K more conclusively towards the Time of Ending while whipping out 30K big-time.

A shame that, though M31 should be an interesting time, even if they focus on the Heresy exclusively.

[Elheru Aran]

It's looking like their 30K intro kit is going to be Scouring of Prospero. There's pictures of a plastic kit of a Thousand Sons sorceror floating around, though I can't say whether that's going to be from their 30K or 40K line. Buzz is pretty strong that their new 40K intro kit is going to be Battle of the Fang, with MAGNUS THE RED. As a PLASTIC kit.

That should be pretty damn awesome.

[NecronLord]

Don't get me started on how GW handled the Squats....

Ultimately while it was not great for the players, it was in no way a bad decision for the lore.

According to Squat Lore 1% of human worlds were run by:

Socially progressive.
Technophile.
Rationalist.
Humans with no history of warcrimes nor oppression.


Who have the full scientific method and very limited technological backsliding from the Dark Age of Technology - they called it the Age of Founding, because they did not fear it - their knowledge was far beyond the Adeptus Mechanicus.

And whose psykers are stable.

The Squats had it 100% sorted - and any sensible treatment of the background would have them take over.

There's no rational reason why the Emperor, supposedly wanting to ensure human survival, wouldn't upon meeting the Squats immediately take off his crown and shout "SPACE MARINES, KNEEL TO YOUR NEW MASTERS THEY GOVERN MANKIND NOW. I WILL JOIN THEIR COUNCILS AS SUPREME LIVING ANCESTOR" during the Great Crusade as they had everything right.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Yeah, that about sums it up, Necron.

As for rational...it and the Imperium parted ways ages before the Heresy. That may have been why the Squats held their hand, because they knew they were dealing with madmen, and there's no way to predict which way a loony will jump.

[Sea Skimmer]

They even have a combat-breaching drill vehicle for the Imperial Guard for just this sort of thing, though it's built horizontally of course.

I'm aware. But vehicles like that would only ever work in ideal dry, soft rock conditions. So okay for going down 100ft under a hill, or under a city wall, but almost certainly useless against a deep underground facility that's in hard rock and below the water table. TBMs (which are custom built for conditions as it is) are the way they are for a lot of reasons, this thing is patterned off a coal mining machine which is bad. Unless the enemy is defending a coal mine in which case I suggest simply triggering a coal dust or methane explosion.

Drilling from above/slant would be much faster, and far more adaptable, and as shown by those mine rescues you can in fact send people through a drill pipe. First blow in chunks of ceiling, then send down snake robot bombs to kill the defenders, then a couple people get the loot. With drilling you can switch out cutter heads, and you integrate muck removal with the act of gaining depth. Drilling with larger equipment is almost always held up by muck removal problems at the end of the day.

The Squat vehicles with the magic tunnel rays might be more adaptable then a mechanical boring machine, but of course the Squats got nuked! They have actual artillery and yeah, too close to logical in general. It's one of those clear proofs that the rest of 40K isn't to be taken seriously in any military terms.

[Abacus]

I prefer to refer to Jes Goodwin in these situations.

You're standard SM stands at between 7'5" ~ 7'8". Some marines grow naturally taller and larger, such as the Ultramarine Sergeant Pasanius or the rather infamous Chapter Master Seydon of the Iron Snakes, who is reported to be nearly a full 3' taller than your average line marine (which many speculate to mean that Seydon will eventually be revealed as a Primarch in hiding; or simply a freakishly tall version of a freakishly created super soldier).

Primarchs ranged from the average height as displayed by the twins, to nearly 10' tall in the case of Magnus. All the other primarchs tend to be in the 8'~9' range.


----


Size issues aside, the reason why the Imperial Guard are not equipped with Space Marine vehicles is due to the nature of the Mechanicus and they're production capabilities. Certain STC templates are easy and readily shared across space, but others are either horded or kept secret. Those used by the Imperial Guard are the most common, easy to produce, and cheapest to produce; ergo they're made that way. The Space Marine weaponry on the other hand is more expensive and harder to produce in great quantities to match the never ending need for more war material that the never-ending wars of the Imperium require.

So, sure, you might find some exceptions of some IG units using Rhinos or some knock-off SM vehicle, but you'll never find them equipped entirely with the stuff.

[Rogue 9]

It's starting to look like Sisters of Battle might go the same way. They already screwed the Bretonnians out of Warhammer Fantasy, excuse me Age of Sigmar.

Makes me glad I stopped playing 40K then. I suppose the bluies will be the next to go at this rate.

Nah, Tau are doing fine. Everybody likes a shooty army (until they get in range, then the butthurt starts). 40K in general tends to have enough fans loyal to each faction that they won't eliminate them without serious reason, but Sisters of Battle just don't have a whole lot of players to start with (mostly because GW can't be arsed to give them decent rules, units, or even plastic models...). Bretonnians got snuffed because they didn't fit very well into the Age of Sigmar mold. 7th Edition (at least I think it's 7th) won't be *that* drastic of a change to 40K, but it's looking very likely that they'll start leaning 40K more conclusively towards the Time of Ending while whipping out 30K big-time.

40k is on 7th edition now; if/when they release a new one, it'll be 8th. And if they pull a Sigmar on us and wipe out a bunch of factions, I (being the local 40k organizer) will just not transition the local tournament scene, especially if it makes all of this unusable, and double especially if they pull the no points cost, plunk down whatever you want balance model (and that's speaking as the guy who would win that contest with ease).

[NecronLord]

They even have a combat-breaching drill vehicle for the Imperial Guard for just this sort of thing, though it's built horizontally of course.

I'm aware. But vehicles like that would only ever work in ideal dry, soft rock conditions. So okay for going down 100ft under a hill, or under a city wall, but almost certainly useless against a deep underground facility that's in hard rock and below the water table. TBMs (which are custom built for conditions as it is) are the way they are for a lot of reasons, this thing is patterned off a coal mining machine which is bad. Unless the enemy is defending a coal mine in which case I suggest simply triggering a coal dust or methane explosion.

Drilling from above/slant would be much faster, and far more adaptable, and as shown by those mine rescues you can in fact send people through a drill pipe. First blow in chunks of ceiling, then send down snake robot bombs to kill the defenders, then a couple people get the loot. With drilling you can switch out cutter heads, and you integrate muck removal with the act of gaining depth. Drilling with larger equipment is almost always held up by muck removal problems at the end of the day.

The Squat vehicles with the magic tunnel rays might be more adaptable then a mechanical boring machine, but of course the Squats got nuked! They have actual artillery and yeah, too close to logical in general. It's one of those clear proofs that the rest of 40K isn't to be taken seriously in any military terms.

That kind of operation is a bit out of scope for most games simply based on how long it takes. That said, I'm tempted to use a drilling attack on a bunker as a target for saboteurs with the upcoming Kill Team if I play it. Something like this as the basis.

[Elheru Aran]

40k is on 7th edition now; if/when they release a new one, it'll be 8th. And if they pull a Sigmar on us and wipe out a bunch of factions, I (being the local 40k organizer) will just not transition the local tournament scene, especially if it makes all of this unusable, and double especially if they pull the no points cost, plunk down whatever you want balance model (and that's speaking as the guy who would win that contest with ease).

I don't think you'll have to worry too much about that. I think their main thing is going to be whipping out the HH plastics and streamlining the rules a bit. No removing factions (well apart from possibly SoB)-- the main reason they did it with WHFB was because there were too many and they consolidated most of the factions into smaller groups so that there would be less armies to deal with. The biggest buzz is that they're going to pull out real live Primarchs in the 40K 'verse, starting with Daemon-Primarch Magnus.

[Sea Skimmer]

40k is on 7th edition now; if/when they release a new one, it'll be 8th. And if they pull a Sigmar on us and wipe out a bunch of factions, I (being the local 40k organizer) will just not transition the local tournament scene, especially if it makes all of this unusable, and double especially if they pull the no points cost, plunk down whatever you want balance model (and that's speaking as the guy who would win that contest with ease).

I bet they will. They no doubt have deluded ideas that if they give the player some kind of way to 'rape' the other player the way that is so popular in the ever dumberz COD games it will cause a surge of popularity. In reality of course such people will never ever play tabletop games, while balanced rules also provide a big real to buy more stuff anyway, so you have choice of what to field, but these are the same morons who won't lower there absurd prices even as sales drop and the act of making the models has gotten much cheaper. Not to mention piracy is now realistic and in use thanks to 3D printers and laser scanners that now don't cost more then the models would in the first place.

That kind of operation is a bit out of scope for most games simply based on how long it takes. That said, I'm tempted to use a drilling attack on a bunker as a target for saboteurs with the upcoming Kill Team if I play it. Something like this as the basis.

Well I can assure you that if any reality applied at all, that would also be true of that drill vehicle, no matter the ground conditions. Seriously, 300 feet a day would be amazing world record kind of performance, and since you have to do something with all the muck, and make a shitload of noise, it's not like the enemy won't be able to notice.

[Rogue 9]

40k is on 7th edition now; if/when they release a new one, it'll be 8th. And if they pull a Sigmar on us and wipe out a bunch of factions, I (being the local 40k organizer) will just not transition the local tournament scene, especially if it makes all of this unusable, and double especially if they pull the no points cost, plunk down whatever you want balance model (and that's speaking as the guy who would win that contest with ease).

I bet they will. They no doubt have deluded ideas that if they give the player some kind of way to 'rape' the other player the way that is so popular in the ever dumberz COD games it will cause a surge of popularity. In reality of course such people will never ever play tabletop games, while balanced rules also provide a big real to buy more stuff anyway, so you have choice of what to field, but these are the same morons who won't lower there absurd prices even as sales drop and the act of making the models has gotten much cheaper. Not to mention piracy is now realistic and in use thanks to 3D printers and laser scanners that now don't cost more then the models would in the first place.

I don't deny they're being very short-sighted with their pricing model, but the reason I said that was because that's precisely what they did when they replaced Warhammer Fantasy Battles with the new Age of Sigmar fantasy battle game; originally AoS had no points values and you could just play with whatever you had.

This meant that the WHFB tournament scene basically vanished overnight and sales plummeted. They released a supplement, the General's Handbook, not too long ago that put points values and force organization back into the game, and apparently it's much better now, but I'm not inclined to buy into it and find out.