The Imperium vs The Empire

[His Divine Shadow]

In space the Empire wins on a pound for pound basis anyway, the highest figure I have ever seen for an IoM ship is 30TT, while 80TT broadsides for ISD's are not unheard of.

[His Divine Shadow]

There is one quote from the old space hulk fluff that puts a missile at 600+ gigatons.

Yes.

This is from White Dwarf issue 113, Gamesworkshop's official mag.

"Standing off at a distance of two parsecs were the gothic class
battle cruisers Intolerance, Indestructibility, and Righteous Power.
Each ship carried a payload of 100 hellfire class nuclear missiles.
The payload of a hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions,
each with a five gigaton warhead"

I asked GA Ancaris about this, it's apparently so old that it's been overwritten.

[His Divine Shadow]

A single hive world has trillions of inhabitants. the numbers for the imperial guard are uncountable billions (this is english billions by the way 1,000,000,000,000)

That... I will ask the people at games workshop.

[white_rabbit]

There is one quote from the old space hulk fluff that puts a missile at 600+ gigatons.

Yes.

This is from White Dwarf issue 113, Gamesworkshop's official mag.

"Standing off at a distance of two parsecs were the gothic class
battle cruisers Intolerance, Indestructibility, and Righteous Power.
Each ship carried a payload of 100 hellfire class nuclear missiles.
The payload of a hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions,
each with a five gigaton warhead"

I asked GA Ancaris about this, it's apparently so old that it's been overwritten.

you know, I actually had that mag until a few years ago...my WD collection is beginning to destroy my shelves..

just out of interest, where has it been overwritten ?

[His Divine Shadow]

just out of interest, where has it been overwritten ?

I was told that the role of the ship had changed alot with never revisions, that it didn't have all those missiles or torpedoes anymore, something about ranges too...
It's what I can remember for now anyway, I need to get home and see what he actually said.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, I'd like to note that if the Imperium is as slow as some of you people are suggesting, they can very well doom themselves on that, the Empires industrial capacity and huge population is disgusting, they already had a fleet nearly twice as powerfull as the first DS by ANH and they had nearly doubled all divisions of their millitary in strenght by TESB.

Give them a few years and they'll have a fleet and millitary that so stupidly large it will hurt you just by thinking about it.

[white_rabbit]

just out of interest, where has it been overwritten ?

I was told that the role of the ship had changed alot with never revisions, that it didn't have all those missiles or torpedoes anymore, something about ranges too...
It's what I can remember for now anyway, I need to get home and see what he actually said.

Hmm, well, for a start he might be referring to the fact that Marines have their own specialised fleets now...but its common for chapters to have Imperial Navy ships as well..i.e. Space Wolves, Ultras etc

They DO have torpedos, IIRC they are primarily Lance ships and have an absolutely kick ass broadside of lances.

the current basic Imperial torpedo is generally "plasma nuclear" or more often "plasma"

[white_rabbit]

Also, I'd like to note that if the Imperium is as slow as some of you people are suggesting, they can very well doom themselves on that, the Empires industrial capacity and huge population is disgusting, they already had a fleet nearly twice as powerfull as the first DS by ANH and they had nearly doubled all divisions of their millitary in strenght by TESB.

Give them a few years and they'll have a fleet and millitary that so stupidly large it will hurt you just by thinking about it.

Umm, I suppose, a really, really inexperianced fleet...

[His Divine Shadow]

Umm, I suppose, a really, really inexperianced fleet...

Maybe, maybe not, general SW enviroments often require some forms of fleet combat due to the people wanting the empire gone, rebellions and crap like that.

Ofcourse the Emperor could simply take the memory-flash imprinter(used on fully-grown soldier clones in the Zahn triology) and imprint experiences on fresh troops, it should work on other people than clones of the person who it was taken from as we had a clone of a stormie with some of the experienes of GA Thrawn.

[His Divine Shadow]

Okie, got some more info it seems that in the book "Age of the Imperium", which is part of the main rulebook that comes with the 40K boxed set.
A Hive world has more than 100,000,000,000, but less than 500,000,000,000

[SylasGaunt]

In space the Empire wins on a pound for pound basis anyway, the highest figure I have ever seen for an IoM ship is 30TT, while 80TT broadsides for ISD's are not unheard of.

Why don't we look at some other sources then hmm?

Like say the Night Lord's bombardment.

Now according to MW's planet killer page the minimum amount of energy to destroy a planet is 5E16 megatons. Of course this is also a slow break-up not the outright explosion of the planet like we get with the NL's.

Now assuming a 1000 ship fleet (which is like the earlier 10,000 ship fleet estimate is being extremely nice about it, after all IIRC you could carry an entire legion in under 100 ships).

That's a 50,000,000 TT broadside per ship on average.

If we go with 6000 ships (which is saying they have the same number of ships as marines) we get a 8,333,333 TT broadside on average.

[white_rabbit]

Okie, got some more info it seems that in the book "Age of the Imperium", which is part of the main rulebook that comes with the 40K boxed set.
A Hive world has more than 100,000,000,000, but less than 500,000,000,000

On average, some Hive-worlds will have only a single Hive-city, others multiple citys to the extent that most of the planet is a vast city and industrial centre..

[His Divine Shadow]

Why don't we look at some other sources then hmm?

I have seen them, and now your take on it, you are kidding are you not?

Like say the Night Lord's bombardment.

OK

Now according to MW's planet killer page the minimum amount of energy to destroy a planet is 5E16 megatons. Of course this is also a slow break-up not the outright explosion of the planet like we get with the NL's.

Thats incorrect though, MW is speaking about the gravitational binding energy, now this is not what happend with the Night Lords, they didn't make the planet explode, it burst apart, as in several pieces, for that we can say 3E11Megatons to blow a crater deep enough to go to it's core(and most likely subsequently burst the planet apart, and they did burrow down to it's core)
The actual quote is "and with a cataclysmic explostion, the dark planet burst apart"

You interprept it as the entire planet exploded at high velocities, but it's clear it's more of a large explosion that caused the planet to burst apart in several pieces most likely, and certanly not at escape velocity(Abbadons planet killer didn't even do such a thing).
Heck the planet is liable to have reformed within a short time.

I hope you now know how utterly contradictory your calc is too, we have one fleet surpassing the feats by Abbadon's planet killer here.

The most powerfull ship ever built by man which did things no IoM fleet could match. The Planet Killer didn't make the planets explode either, it fired for 30 minutes on Savaen and the planet crumbled in on itself and fragmented up after a while leaving an extremely dense asteroid field. You're saying a bunch of ships have more firepower than the Planet Killer which was explicitly said to be something the IoM where so bloody impressed by they doubted it could have even been constructed in normal space but had to be made in the warp.

Logic dictates that:
A) The Night Lords did not fragment their planet or blow it like you assume(actual material agrees)
B) They had weapons superior to the rest of the IoM in the 41st millenium
---B.1) Their superior weapons indicates the IoM had much superior technology 10.000 years ago
---B.2) Their weapons where empowered by Chaos powers somehow

Now for some actual calcs:
If there where 150 battleships then, I guess something like 3 lances each ship and it fired for 40 seconds(a known figure for lances), and also mass-drivers where used but they aren't as powerfull, lets just say they did 10% of the total damage.
We get 15Teratons a second for each lance, thats 45TT a second, and a total 1800Teratons for a 40 second firing.
These figures are more realistical than your figures which seems to exists soley for adding on zero's

That's a 50,000,000 TT broadside per ship on average.

Whatever, your rather assumptious figures are in conflict with _actual_ figures(many, many magnitudes above them) and the 40k universe in general with such firepower single ships could easily replace the Inquisition and the need for them to come and destroy planets.

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

There is one quote from the old space hulk fluff that puts a missile at 600+ gigatons.

I would like a page number, and the quote presented word for word please.

Black hole shells, Warp rift shells.. those are the only ones I can remember aside from the normal 'blow stuff up' shell.

I am the one who made the rules for those extra types of Nova Cannon shells. And it should be noted they are /not/ official.

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

The Necron's are strong yes, but they have weaknesses.. well maybe the wrong word, their exists weapons to defeat them. Vaul made a few, The Blackstone Fortresses, that Abaddon used are examples of it. (This is the power Abaddon never realised it beheld, the power to kill a C'Tan permanetly...) They where defeated/driven off once before, and the strongest C'tan is dead.

Uhh..... no. the strongest C'Tan is not dead. The Dragon still exists, and is (from all indications) asleep on Mars. With parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus worshiping him as the Machine God

Plus Psychic Powers seem to be an issue. At last we see why the Old ones made species with Psychic powers, even through it opened them to the Warp...

The Necrons and C'Tan have already begun their work of seperating the Warp from the material universe permanently. Psychic powers and travel through the warp soon will not exist.

[SylasGaunt]

Thats incorrect though, MW is speaking about the gravitational binding energy, now this is not what happend with the Night Lords, they didn't make the planet explode, it burst apart, as in several pieces, for that we can say 3E11Megatons to blow a crater deep enough to go to it's core(and most likely subsequently burst the planet apart, and they did burrow down to it's core)
The actual quote is "and with a cataclysmic explostion, the dark planet burst apart"

So you instead choose to interpret burst to cracked apaert?

You interprept it as the entire planet exploded at high velocities, but it's clear it's more of a large explosion that caused the planet to burst apart in several pieces most likely, and certanly not at escape velocity(Abbadons planet killer didn't even do such a thing).

Proof it's below escape velocity? Or are you just assuming that? And the difference between these two incidents is that Abbadon's planet-killer is a single ship not a fleet. This is also not an isolated incident. The Word Bearers destroyed a planet, Lord Macharius destroyed 7, and 1 was taken out in the Ophidian pacification.

Heck the planet is liable to have reformed within a short time.

Now where's your evidence?

I hope you now know how utterly contradictory your calc is too, we have one fleet surpassing the feats by Abbadon's planet killer here.

And Abbadon's planet-killer can do almost as much damage with a single ship.

The most powerfull ship ever built by man which did things no IoM fleet could match. The Planet Killer didn't make the planets explode either, it fired for 30 minutes on Savaen and the planet crumbled in on itself and fragmented up after a while leaving an extremely dense asteroid field. You're saying a bunch of ships have more firepower than the Planet Killer which was explicitly said to be something the IoM where so bloody impressed by they doubted it could have even been constructed in normal space but had to be made in the warp.

I remind you that this is one ship accomplishing something you'd need a fleet for.

Logic dictates that:
A) The Night Lords did not fragment their planet or blow it like you assume(actual material agrees)

How so? The planet burst apart, now do you have any evidence that points to it only breaking up in a few large chunks to reform?

B) They had weapons superior to the rest of the IoM in the 41st millenium
---B.1) Their superior weapons indicates the IoM had much superior technology 10.000 years ago

Technology has moved forward since that time. Unless you have some evidence saying their lances were more powerful than those of modern IoM ships?

---B.2) Their weapons where empowered by Chaos powers somehow

Proof?

Now for some actual calcs:
If there where 150 battleships then, I guess something like 3 lances each ship and it fired for 40 seconds(a known figure for lances), and also mass-drivers where used but they aren't as powerfull, lets just say they did 10% of the total damage.
We get 15Teratons a second for each lance, thats 45TT a second, and a total 1800Teratons for a 40 second firing.
These figures are more realistical than your figures which seems to exists soley for adding on zero's

Provided you assume that when the planet burst it broke up in a couple pieces.

v. burst, burst·ing, bursts
v. intr.

To come open or fly apart suddenly or violently, especially from internal pressure.
To explode.

\Burst\, n. 1. A sudden breaking forth; a violent rending; an explosion; as, a burst of thunder; a burst of applause; a burst of passion; a burst of inspiration.

My dictionaries tend to agree with mine.

Whatever, your rather assumptious figures are in conflict with _actual_ figures(many, many magnitudes above them) and the 40k universe in general with such firepower single ships could easily replace the Inquisition and the need for them to come and destroy planets.

The Inquisition isn't needed to destroy planets, just they tend to order them destroyed, and the exterminatus examples I remember them ordering usually involve virus bombs or cyclotronic torpedoes

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

You interprept it as the entire planet exploded at high velocities, but it's clear it's more of a large explosion that caused the planet to burst apart in several pieces most likely, and certanly not at escape velocity(Abbadons planet killer didn't even do such a thing).

Proof it's below escape velocity?

Proof that it's above escape velocity?

Or are you just assuming that? And the difference between these two incidents is that Abbadon's planet-killer is a single ship not a fleet. This is also not an isolated incident. The Word Bearers destroyed a planet, Lord Macharius destroyed 7, and 1 was taken out in the Ophidian pacification.

Most of which probably had either virus bombs or large rocks dropped on them. That is unless you can provide exact quotes (with source and page number) which say otherwise.

The most powerfull ship ever built by man which did things no IoM fleet could match. The Planet Killer didn't make the planets explode either, it fired for 30 minutes on Savaen and the planet crumbled in on itself and fragmented up after a while leaving an extremely dense asteroid field. You're saying a bunch of ships have more firepower than the Planet Killer which was explicitly said to be something the IoM where so bloody impressed by they doubted it could have even been constructed in normal space but had to be made in the warp.

I remind you that this is one ship accomplishing something you'd need a fleet for.

If all you need is a fleet of ships to destroy a planet, why does this quote suggest that the actual act of destroying a planetary body is all but unheard of?

BFG Rulebook, pages 95-96, refering to the Planet Killer's destruction of Savaven.

"All had heard of Exterminatus with fusion torpedoes, virus bombs and mass drivers, but to know the enemy had the ability to destroy an entire planet, not just all life on it, must have been the most chilling thought that any naval crewman had ever faced."

They don't say "the ability to destroy a planet with a single ship.", they say "the ability to destroy an entire planet".

Logic dictates that:
A) The Night Lords did not fragment their planet or blow it like you assume(actual material agrees)

How so? The planet burst apart, now do you have any evidence that points to it only breaking up in a few large chunks to reform?

Do you have any evidence that points to it being blown apart "Death Star" style?

B) They had weapons superior to the rest of the IoM in the 41st millenium
---B.1) Their superior weapons indicates the IoM had much superior technology 10.000 years ago

Technology has moved forward since that time. Unless you have some evidence saying their lances were more powerful than those of modern IoM ships?

Well the technology of the Imperium certainly has not moved forward. I provide these examples.

BFG Rulebook. Page 118, describing the Desolator class Battleships:
"The Desolator class Battleship dates back to the very founding of the Imperium and utilises technology long since lost to the Adeptus Mechanicus. None now remain in Imperial service, but it is known that at least five Desolators defected from the Emperor's light between the 31st and the 34th millenium"

BFG Rulebook. Repulsive Grand Cruiser, page 119:

"The grand cruiser was a precursor to the battlecruisers which are now more prevalent in most Imperial fleets. Almost rivalling battleships in it's ability to withstand damage and lay down a barrage of fire, the grand cruiser fell out of favor when means for constructing suffeciently powerful engines was lost (more recently built engines were incapable of attaining a useful combat speed)."

And the Ramilies class Star Fort from Planet Killer mag and the BFG Annual (I think), which I do not have yet.

"The hyper-plasmatic energy conduction system used by the Ramilies is barely understood in current times, but thanks to the STC system is still reproducable and has a guaranteed endurance of over 3,000 years."

In those examples it seems fairly clear that the Imperium's tech isn't moving forward.

[NecronLord]

You interprept it as the entire planet exploded at high velocities, but it's clear it's more of a large explosion that caused the planet to burst apart in several pieces most likely, and certanly not at escape velocity(Abbadons planet killer didn't even do such a thing).

Proof it's below escape velocity?

Proof that it's above escape velocity?

Or are you just assuming that? And the difference between these two incidents is that Abbadon's planet-killer is a single ship not a fleet. This is also not an isolated incident. The Word Bearers destroyed a planet, Lord Macharius destroyed 7, and 1 was taken out in the Ophidian pacification.

Most of which probably had either virus bombs or large rocks dropped on them. That is unless you can provide exact quotes (with source and page number) which say otherwise.

The most powerfull ship ever built by man which did things no IoM fleet could match. The Planet Killer didn't make the planets explode either, it fired for 30 minutes on Savaen and the planet crumbled in on itself and fragmented up after a while leaving an extremely dense asteroid field. You're saying a bunch of ships have more firepower than the Planet Killer which was explicitly said to be something the IoM where so bloody impressed by they doubted it could have even been constructed in normal space but had to be made in the warp.

I remind you that this is one ship accomplishing something you'd need a fleet for.

If all you need is a fleet of ships to destroy a planet, why does this quote suggest that the actual act of destroying a planetary body is all but unheard of?

BFG Rulebook, pages 95-96, refering to the Planet Killer's destruction of Savaven.

"All had heard of Exterminatus with fusion torpedoes, virus bombs and mass drivers, but to know the enemy had the ability to destroy an entire planet, not just all life on it, must have been the most chilling thought that any naval crewman had ever faced."

of course every naval grunt has even heard of the Night Lords incident [no-one expects the inquisition] and knows about the ophidian pacification. [unlikely] and the macharius incidents [but wait, Macharius was not the enemy was he? no! he was the IoM version of Thrawn! Note the "an Enemy" they don't mind doing it to others, but they don't appriciate having it done to them!]

They don't say "the ability to destroy a planet with a single ship.", they say "the ability to destroy an entire planet".

Logic dictates that:
A) The Night Lords did not fragment their planet or blow it like you assume(actual material agrees)

How so? The planet burst apart, now do you have any evidence that points to it only breaking up in a few large chunks to reform?

Do you have any evidence that points to it being blown apart "Death Star" style?

do you have any evidence that says it was not?

B) They had weapons superior to the rest of the IoM in the 41st millenium
---B.1) Their superior weapons indicates the IoM had much superior technology 10.000 years ago

Technology has moved forward since that time. Unless you have some evidence saying their lances were more powerful than those of modern IoM ships?

Well the technology of the Imperium certainly has not moved forward. I provide these examples.

Not this again!

DaOT ~ approx culture or near equiv tech level, ruled by AI, moved star systems (i'm fairly sure they moved the Sol system also)
AoS ~ Civil war, most tech lost, Warp storms around earth
Great crusade~ EoM unites warring factions on earth, warp storms around earth dissapate EoM builds Imperum, Horus heresy.
Age of the Imperium

The tech was mostly lost in the AoS, for every example of decreasing tech there is one of increasing tech. e.g. improving armour etc etc.

<snip examples>

[SAMAS]

How so? The planet burst apart, now do you have any evidence that points to it only breaking up in a few large chunks to reform?

Do you have any evidence that points to it being blown apart "Death Star" style?

White Dwarf #259(August 2001), Index Astartes: Night Lords, page 60 --

The Night Lords' ships orbited Nostramo, Hundreds of weapons trained on the shrouded planet, the rays of the system's dying sun glinting from barrels too numerous to count. A the fabric of space buckled and twisted, disgorging the few craft able to keep pace, the Lances and Mass Drivers of Night Haunter's flagship opened fire upon the planet.

Beam after beam of incandescent light joined the fulisade, all concentrating upon the same point, a wea spon in Nostramo's adamantium crust theorized to be left by the Primarch's initial landing. The lasers of the Night Lords' ships focused a blinding lance of pure energy into the planet's core, and with a cataclysmic explosion, the dark planet burst apart.

Proof enough for you?

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh fucking please, anyone who thinks it was blown apart deathstar style must be really fucking blinded by his fanaticism

[His Divine Shadow]

Proof enough for you?

You think thats proof for it? It's proof against it if anything.

It defies all logic and common sense(look at the planetkiller), that quote do not say the planet blew apart at escape velocity, it says with a gigantic explosion the planet burst apart, that doesn't mean it exploded like Alderaan.

If the planet exploded it would have said so, instead it speaks of an explosion separatly, then the planet bursting apart, probably in two, three pieces.

This descriptions fits better with my calc and overall examples of the IoM too.

Necronlord, I thought we settled the tech issue the last time, have you changed your mind?

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh fucking please, anyone who thinks it was blown apart deathstar style must be really fucking blinded by his fanaticism

Sorry for "bursting" like that, but it seems some people just go "40k = culture" and turn of their brains sometimes

[NecronLord]

Argh, the tech issue.

The way I see it is this.

Overall the tech level is static

in some areas, notably ship production, their tech has decreased. Whereas in others such as ground combat it is advancing slowly, However the cliam that the night lords had more advanced ships than the IoM had in 40,000 AD is untrue. Many ships from that era are still in service, and as such the IoM is still able to destroy planets.

Sorry for "bursting" like that, but it seems some people just go "40k = culture" and turn of their brains sometimes

Dammit the culture are not ommnipotent. Kyp Durron has destroyed more stars than they have!

There is no evidence saying the fragments from the planet did not reach escape velocity.

[His Divine Shadow]

There is no evidence saying the fragments from the planet did not reach escape velocity.

Now that deserves a BIG

Are you serious?
The planet that was hit by Abbadons planetkiller didn't explode, it tore itself apart from the stress and changed orbit the massive weapon did, it left as a highly dense asteroid field, if that was at escape velocity the asteroid belt would have dissipated after a few years really, but the planet didn't even explode from the beam, no it was pushed out of course and a huge ass crater filled with lava covered a near whole continent and the stress tore it apart into thousands of fragments.

Those clueless 5056096098543069835064TT calcs gives a single battleship several magnitudes more firepower than the planet killer.

All the evidence I've done calcs on points to low TT firepower for the IoM, now people come along with petaton and exaton level firepowers just like that and step on internal continuity as if it was a bad disease.

[NecronLord]

There is no evidence saying the fragments from the planet did not reach escape velocity.

Now that deserves a BIG

Are you serious?
The planet that was hit by Abbadons planetkiller didn't explode, it tore itself apart from the stress and changed orbit the massive weapon did, it left as a highly dense asteroid field, if that was at escape velocity the asteroid belt would have dissipated after a few years really, but the planet didn't even explode from the beam, no it was pushed out of course and a huge ass crater filled with lava covered a near whole continent and the stress tore it apart into thousands of fragments.

Those clueless 5056096098543069835064TT calcs gives a single battleship several magnitudes more firepower than the planet killer.

All the evidence I've done calcs on points to low TT firepower for the IoM, now people come along with petaton and exaton level firepowers just like that and step on internal continuity as if it was a bad disease.

X != Y