Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
I'm sorry about 7o9, I was wrong but the first link was with a collective. And please be a little more civil. OK :)
I wouldn't waste your time asking for people here to be more civil. SD.net prides itself on its ruthless mockery of stupid statements.
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Post by brianeyci »

No time yet to reply to your huge post, doing this one first.
Batman wrote:55 as in 55KT, which is half of 110KT. You notice that I get 22MT which is slightly more than your 20 (because you rounded down to 0.1MT). I shouldn't 've dropped the units, sorry bout that. Our calculations are essentially the same.
Good. So there was nothing wrong with my math.
Several things:
1. I notice how you conspiciously use the highest phaser firepwer you can find while ignoring that in the same paragraph Mike rates their effectiveness agasinst the hull at 1-10TW, and that the canon shield incidents indicate high GW to low TW shielding for a Galaxy. Are you indicating E-D can vaporize herself in one shot?
Those 30PW are clearly including NDF. Last I checked a BattleCrab wasn't made of rock.
Main Site wrote: Against dense armor, phasers appear to be much weaker, in the 1-10TW range
Vorlons and Shadow ships are fucking organic, they don't have dense armor. Its only a matter of getting through their shields, then *SPLAT*.
2. 12 MT in a fraction of a second is enough to cripple it. We know nothing about their sustained durability, as Brian unfortunately uses the 12MT number for determining the power of other weapons that were used against it.
So, let's assume you have all the time in the world to do it, but then let's also assume the reduced 10TW number as actually applied to the hull,
quintuple it because the Borg ate t3h ub3r, and you have to fire at the Crab for 16min 40 seconds continuously to take it out. Oops...
And you drop the part when Wong mentions 1-10TW against dense armor. And DW mentions 30-40 TW against shields. I took the low-end estimate. Too bad, battlecrabs and heavy cruisers are organic, they don't have dense armor or arguably even armor at all. Ever read DW's brainbugs page, organic ships would go splat once their shields were down.
How, given you have made no effort to actually calculate their offensive firepower? If you get to use Mike's (almost certainly defunct by now) 30,0000 phasers, I get Brian Youngs 12 Million TW power generation...
So what, you want to talk about offense fine. Because I wasn't talking about offense doesn't mean I was ignoring it. By talking about Borg defense, I am implicitly talking about Vorlon/Shadow offense. You want to talk about Borg defense against Shadow/Vorlon offense? Power generation doesn't mean shit if they can't apply that power to shields or weapons.
BabTech wrote:Shadow and Vorlon vessel are on the same order of magnitude in defensive and offensive capabilities. Otherwise, one would not be much threat to the other. In Interludes and Examinations, a Shadow vessel fired on a Vorlon battleship. Minor damage only was done to the vessel. Since Shadow vessels are easily destroyed or heavily damaged by a 200,000 terajoule blast, and the Shadow beam only caused minor damage to the Vorlon ship; the beam likely delivered much less than 200,000 terajoules to the Vorlon ship.
Much less than 200k TJ. Since it was minor damage, let's take 50,000 TJ, or 25%. That's 50k TJ. If the beam fired for a few seconds, lets say five seconds, that 10,000 TW of beam power. Hardly enough to penetrate Borg shielding, which are high megaton to low gigaton. If it fired for one or two second then we get 25k - 50k TW beam power. Still not enough, although concentrated firepower by several battlecrabs for several seconds would be enough to defeat a Borg Cube's low-end estimate of shield power (40 megatons so far).

And this is a bend-over-backwards low-end estimate of shield strength. DS9, a heavily armed battlestation, had one thousand photon torpedoes and fired torpedoes quite rapidly. When the Borg attacked Federation outposts near the Neutral Zone, both Romulan and Federation, they annihilated them totally. For the Federation and Romulan outposts to be effective against attacking fleets, they would need to pack the kind of firepower DS9 did, or else all the Romulans would need to do would be to concentrate 100 Warbirds on one part of the neutral zone and break through. If 200 photon torpedoes could really beat a Borg ship, then hallueja, fucking send five Galaxies or even one Galaxy which has been demonstrated to last more than three minutes under Borg fire in BOBW, and that would be enough. But it isn't. Never did Shelby, who studied the Borg extensively, suggest that emptying all 250 torpedoes would be enough to destroy the Borg cube.

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Post by brianeyci »

Also the "thousands of Vorlons and Shadow ships" is a load of bullshit. Unless hyperspace is excruciatingly slow, thousands of Vorlon and Shadow ships would be able in short order to split into fleets of several hundred, and annihilate the YR. When the Vorlons were doing their planetkilling, it took quite awhile.

The Vorlons and Shadows have an undefined industrial capacity. What if they just have one homeworld, al la "Trek race of the week" in Voyager? How quickly can they build ships? The Federation can build 50 - 100 large frame ships a year (Galaxies etc) and 1000 small frame ships a year (Defiants). Borg resources far exceeds this, with thousands of star systems. How the hell fast can the Vorlons or Shadows build? The Borg's variables are defined or known, and a lot of the Vorlons/Shadows variables aren't, so the Borg win by default.

The only advantage they have is hyperspace and strategy. In that case, the Borg would pull the same thing they did against Species 8472. Concentrate the majority of their population in one area (two trillion in the Borg transwarp hub), operate out of the Nebula and attack through transwarp conduits in their space. In Vorlon and Shadow space, well hit and run won't help the Vorlons or Shadows there if the Borg go on a decapitation strike against Vorlon/Shadow homeworlds.

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Post by Howedar »

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Howedar wrote:Such statements do not in any way mesh with what we've seen onscreen, which is never more than dozens of cubes.
How many ISDs have we seen on screen?
In other words, you cannot support your statement. Concession accepted.
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Post by Gustav32Vasa »

Howedar wrote:
Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Howedar wrote:Such statements do not in any way mesh with what we've seen onscreen, which is never more than dozens of cubes.
How many ISDs have we seen on screen?
In other words, you cannot support your statement. Concession accepted.
No, I want to know where you get the idea that the Borg has only the number of ships we see on screen. So even if we know that the SW empire has 25000 ISD you only accept 2 dozen ISD.

Chakotay has been linked to the Borg, says they have millions of cubes but since we have only seen 15 cubes at the same time they cant have more. :roll:
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Post by Batman »

brianeyci wrote: Good. So there was nothing wrong with my math.
Several things:
1. I notice how you conspiciously use the highest phaser firepwer you can find while ignoring that in the same paragraph Mike rates their effectiveness agasinst the hull at 1-10TW, and that the canon shield incidents indicate high GW to low TW shielding for a Galaxy. Are you indicating E-D can vaporize herself in one shot?
Those 30PW are clearly including NDF. Last I checked a BattleCrab wasn't made of rock.
Main Site wrote: Against dense armor, phasers appear to be much weaker, in the 1-10TW range
Vorlons and Shadow ships are fucking organic, they don't have dense armor. Its only a matter of getting through their shields, then *SPLAT*.
That would be true if B5 would follow real-world physics. Unfortunately, as we see those biological hullss be much more resilient that YR ships that DO use dense armor...
Since when do Vorlon/Shadow vessels have shields?
2. 12 MT in a fraction of a second is enough to cripple it. We know nothing about their sustained durability, as Brian unfortunately uses the 12MT number for determining the power of other weapons that were used against it.
So, let's assume you have all the time in the world to do it, but then let's also assume the reduced 10TW number as actually applied to the hull,
quintuple it because the Borg ate t3h ub3r, and you have to fire at the Crab for 16min 40 seconds continuously to take it out. Oops...
And you drop the part when Wong mentions 1-10TW against dense armor.
Where does that 'dense' part come from, the Vorlons/Shadows ALREADY show resilience in excess of dense armor, and I don't recall NDF weapons doing so hot against Species 90210, so that point is rather moot.
And DW mentions 30-40 TW against shields.
Uuh. I'm scared.
I took the low-end estimate. Too bad, battlecrabs and heavy cruisers are organic, they don't have dense armor
Yet they're more resilient than ships that DO,
or arguably even armor at all.
Really.
Ever read DW's brainbugs page, organic ships would go splat once their shields were down.
Ever thought why he even bothered to mention it? Because it doesn't happen that way. B5 Vorlon/Shadow vessels are CANONICALLY more resilient to weapons fire than metal armored ones. Hell, TREK bioships didn't show the SLAT effect that you so much wish to be there. That's why that BrainBug IS THERE. B5 bioships HAVE that resilience. Deal with it.
How, given you have made no effort to actually calculate their offensive firepower? If you get to use Mike's (almost certainly defunct by now) 30,0000 phasers, I get Brian Youngs 12 Million TW power generation...
So what, you want to talk about offense fine. Because I wasn't talking about offense doesn't mean I was ignoring it. By talking about Borg defense, I am implicitly talking about Vorlon/Shadow offense.
Your implications are WORTHLESS if they don't give any numbers.
You want to talk about Borg defense against Shadow/Vorlon offense? Power generation doesn't mean shit if they can't apply that power to shields or weapons.
Much less than 200k TJ. Since it was minor damage, let's take 50,000 TJ, or 25%. That's 50k TJ. If the beam fired for a few seconds, lets say five seconds, that 10,000 TW of beam power.
Now tell me for how long that beam actually WAS fired. That 5 second figure comes from where?
Hardly enough to penetrate Borg shielding, which are high megaton to low gigaton.
LOW megaton to low gigaton, with low megaton being much more realistic.
If it fired for one or two second then we get 25k - 50k TW beam power. Still not enough, although concentrated firepower by several battlecrabs for several seconds would be enough to defeat a Borg Cube's low-end estimate of shield power (40 megatons so far).
22MT, over a completely unknown amount of time, over its entire shield area. Vs 12 MT over a second or two all of which hits the same 9 or so sqaure meters of shield area.
And this is a bend-over-backwards low-end estimate of shield strength.
Liar. 22MT to 90MT is a completely reasonable estimate of Borg shield strength.
DS9, a heavily armed battlestation, had one thousand photon torpedoes and fired torpedoes quite rapidly.
So?
When the Borg attacked Federation outposts near the Neutral Zone, both Romulan and Federation, they annihilated them totally. For the Federation and Romulan outposts to be effective against attacking fleets, they would need to pack the kind of firepower DS9 did, or else all the Romulans would need to do would be to concentrate 100 Warbirds on one part of the neutral zone and break through.
Evidence that those outpost were heavily fortified military installations and not fucking listening posts or customs stations, please. Evidence they were MEANT to stand up to entire Warbird fleets instead of tripwire communications posts to basically yell 'They're coming'.

If 200 photon torpedoes could really beat a Borg ship, then hallueja, fucking send five Galaxies or even one Galaxy which has been demonstrated to last more than three minutes under Borg fire in BOBW,
Evidence that they can maintain their torpedo refire rate indefinitely, please.
Also, note than if you compare BOBW to FC, the Borg weren't even trying.
and that would be enough. But it isn't. Never did Shelby, who studied the Borg extensively, suggest that emptying all 250 torpedoes would be enough to destroy the Borg cube.
Propably because she didn't think it would survive long enough to fire all of them. Anyway, since we're ALREADY using 400 torpedoes, that point is rather moot.
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Post by Eleas »

Howedar wrote: So your explainations are:
A. 99.99% of Borg ships are not at their primary base and industrial system.
B. 99.99% of Borg ships were destroyed by S8472.

I'm not really impressed by either of your rationalizations.
You would be, if you had read them through before putting words in my mouth. I never said that Gustav's assertion was correct - I simply stated that your own assertion did not give a very good estimate either.

Finally, it's very possible that a high percentage of the Borg ships actually were out on their borders, protecting against the inevitable attack of races that now felt their best chance for striking at the Borg had come.
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Post by Eleas »

You would be, if you had read them through before putting words in my mouth.
:banghead: Actually, come to think of it, that may stand as one of the dumbest things I've ever said. Ignore said attempt at witticism... please.
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Post by Rye »

Batman wrote: Since when do Vorlon/Shadow vessels have shields?
Interludes and examinations in series 3, the vorlon type is more like a "bubble" while the shadow one sort of displaces the energy over its surface:

Shadow vessel starts to get hit by vorlon beam and shadow continues to get blasted by vorlon beam, the amount of green on the surface is much more prominent, and the shadow body is beginning to heat up and go red hot.

shadow vessel attacks vorlon ship and there's a force stopping it before it reaches the ship. here's a bit more of that sequence, you can see the more "bubble like" displacement of the energy, not that after this though, the slizer didn't impact on any shields and cut an "arm" of the ship, but it didn't seem to mind. That slizer cut clear through narn ships much faster than the organic still functioning arm of the vorlon ship.
Brianeyci wrote:Also the "thousands of Vorlons and Shadow ships" is a load of bullshit. Unless hyperspace is excruciatingly slow, thousands of Vorlon and Shadow ships would be able in short order to split into fleets of several hundred, and annihilate the YR.
I don't think it's that simple, by the time they got the planet killers out, they were already actually fighting one another so would presumably bulk up their available fleets in order to deal with the fighting against another first one species. The vorlon fleet at coriana 6 was one of at least 2, since they sent for reinforcements.
The Vorlons and Shadows have an undefined industrial capacity. What if they just have one homeworld, al la "Trek race of the week" in Voyager? How quickly can they build ships?
No idea, i do recall the PKs being considered new tech though, so the shadows built something that can wrap round a planet, presumably after they were awakened by Anna Sheridan and Morden and managed to do it without getting spotted.

The vorlons 3+ planetkillers I have no idea.

As for going against the vorlon/shadow homeworlds, well, nobody knows where the vorlon homeworld is, nor how well fortified it is, but I suspect it would be well fortified, given how much that single vorlon base we saw was. Plus Z'Ha'Dum is mainly underground and is rigged to explode "just in case."

Then there's the great machine(s?)/the eye, with offensive long-range telepathy, which i presume would work on the Borg too.
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Post by Batman »

Rye wrote:
Batman wrote: Since when do Vorlon/Shadow vessels have shields?
Interludes and examinations in series 3, the vorlon type is more like a "bubble" while the shadow one sort of displaces the energy over its surface:
Shadow vessel starts to get hit by vorlon beam and shadow continues to get blasted by vorlon beam, the amount of green on the surface is much more prominent, and the shadow body is beginning to heat up and go red hot.
Which it shouldn't be doing if the shields were still in the way. Anyway, the glowy phenomenon is easily explained by absorption/retransmission.
shadow vessel attacks vorlon ship and there's a force stopping it before it reaches the ship. here's a bit more of that sequence, you can see the more "bubble like" displacement of the energy,
Well 'I' certainly can't. to me this looks much more like an active interceptor which We KNOW exist, at least for pulse weapons, and that's YR tech.
I'm reasonably certain This site has nothing on Shadow/Vorlon shields and it's usually (rightfully so, IMHO) considered more reliable than b5tech.
Brianeyci wrote:Also the "thousands of Vorlons and Shadow ships" is a load of bullshit. Unless hyperspace is excruciatingly slow, thousands of Vorlon and Shadow ships would be able in short order to split into fleets of several hundred, and annihilate the YR.
I don't think it's that simple, by the time they got the planet killers out, they were already actually fighting one another so would presumably bulk up their available fleets in order to deal with the fighting against another first one species. The vorlon fleet at coriana 6 was one of at least 2, since they sent for reinforcements.
It's complete bullshit to boot as neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows were ever actually at war with the YR in the first place. They were using the YR to settle a basically philosophical dispute. Winning a game is sorta hard when you keep killing the players...
The Vorlons and Shadows have an undefined industrial capacity. What if they just have one homeworld, al la "Trek race of the week" in Voyager? How quickly can they build ships?
The Borg have an undefined industrial capacity. What if they have just one homeworld, a la 'Trek race of the week' in Voyager? How quickly can they build ships?
As Brianeyci is now no doubt going to trot out the multipe worlds destroyed by Species 8472, IIRC the combined casualties were outdone by WW2 so assuming they were heavily industrialized is something of a stretch...
The vorlons 3+ planetkillers I have no idea.
One at Coriana 6, two at Centauri Prime. See here
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Post by brianeyci »

Sigh. Okay Batman, I'll shoot off another reply even though I'm supposed to be studying =D
Batman wrote:That would be true if B5 would follow real-world physics. Unfortunately, as we see those biological hullss be much more resilient that YR ships that DO use dense armor...
Since when do Vorlon/Shadow vessels have shields?
Take a look at this. Just because we don't see the interior of a Vorlon ship and hear the retarded Trek "raise the shields!" (IMO this should be automatic as soon as they go to red alert), it doesn't mean they don't have shields. Look at this screen. Who cares if it doesn't look like a bubble around the ship a la Trek style? It spreads the beam shot over the hull, a defense mechanism. It is a hull-hugging shield, just like the Battlestar Galactica has a hull hugging shield.
Where does that 'dense' part come from, the Vorlons/Shadows ALREADY show resilience in excess of dense armor, and I don't recall NDF weapons doing so hot against Species 90210, so that point is rather moot.
Nope, the Vorlons and Shadows show that they have hull hugging shields. If their shields were gone, *SPLAT*. We shouldn't ignore everything we know about biology and the infeasibility of organic armor just because we say that the Vorlons/Shadows are more "advanced". Organic armor is a fucking oxymoron. Using Species 8472 as a way to discredit all of NDF theory is retarded. 8472 could tear a Borg cube apart in a few shots so Borg cubes don't have time to lower 8472's hull hugging shields, 8472 could have been took advantage of the same weakness transphasic torpedoes did a la armor piercing.
Uuh. I'm scared.
Sure. Cause the only thing the Vorlons and Shadow ships have going for them right now is hyperspace.
Yet they're more resilient than ships that DO,
No, they have tougher shields.
Really.
Yep.
Ever thought why he even bothered to mention it? Because it doesn't happen that way. B5 Vorlon/Shadow vessels are CANONICALLY more resilient to weapons fire than metal armored ones. Hell, TREK bioships didn't show the SLAT effect that you so much wish to be there. That's why that BrainBug IS THERE. B5 bioships HAVE that resilience. Deal with it.
Too bad, Vorlon and Shadow ships have hull hugging shields. That's why they're more resilient than YR ships. See the above screenshot and tell me that's not a defense shield at work.
Now tell me for how long that beam actually WAS fired. That 5 second figure comes from where?
Nowhere asshole, that's why I said either five seconds or two seconds based on how I remember. I can't tell how long the beam was fired from a screenshot ass.
LOW megaton to low gigaton, with low megaton being much more realistic.
No its not. I'll answer this below.
22MT, over a completely unknown amount of time, over its entire shield area. Vs 12 MT over a second or two all of which hits the same 9 or so sqaure meters of shield area.
22 MT Borg shielding is really retarded (see below).
Liar. 22MT to 90MT is a completely reasonable estimate of Borg shield strength.
Fine fuckface, gloves come off. 90 MT Borg Shield strength is retarded. Want to know why? I'm lazy at converting units, so I'll take BabTech's figure that 50,000 TJ is 12 MT. Now, if Borg shields were 50 MT, that's around 250,000 TJ of shielding. Use the fucking 30k TW estimate on phaser strength on shields. That means a Borg ship's shields are fucking down after eight seconds of phaser fire from a 150 year old Connie. A Borg ship without shields has huge holes blown into it by phasers and torpedoes a la TNG Q Who. Obviously, eight seconds of phaser fire cannot down a Borg ship's shields, or the 40 ships at Wolf 359 would have annihilated the Borg ship.
DS9, a heavily armed battlestation, had one thousand photon torpedoes and fired torpedoes quite rapidly.
So?
More proof against your idiotic claim that Fed torpedo launchers have too high a refire rate to empty the majority of their payload at Wolf 359. I was going to answer this in the other post, but why not do it now.

1. Connies and Excelsiors shoot torpedoes at around 1 a second (ST:VI)
2. Galaxy is capable of burst fire and 1 torpedo a second (TNG)
3. Voyager is capable of burst fire. (VOY)
4. Sovereign can fire three quantums at once (ST:FC)
5. The Sovereign emptied its entire torpedo payload against the Scimitar in Nemesis in the minutes the scene lasted. It also fired at around one per second.

Then you say, "Nooooo, there must be some slow torp launchers out there..." bullshit. All the torp launchers we've seen fire at around one a second, by Occam's Razor all torp launchers fire at one a second and take around a minute if you want to prepare a large spread. And we don't know exactly the refire rate of each class of vessel, but unless there was a dramatic change in torpedo firing technology, by Occam's Razor it is safe to say that most ships have this ability to fire one per second and continue firing a la Ent-E. You're not going to get any better info on the refire rate without making the TM's canon.
Evidence that those outpost were heavily fortified military installations and not fucking listening posts or customs stations, please. Evidence they were MEANT to stand up to entire Warbird fleets instead of tripwire communications posts to basically yell 'They're coming'.
If they were just listening posts or customs stations, fucking the Federation would have been overrun by the Romulan cloaking device long ago. The Federation had no way to detect cloaked vessels except with stationary tachyon grid early TNG and for the hundreds of years of silence. If the Romulans wanted to attack, all they needed to do was concentrate a large force on one section of the neutral zone, break through, and wreak havoc with their cloaking device. They did not. We know that Romulans are expansionist and aggressive. So the outposts must have detered them, by Occam's Razor. Federation archaeological sites are defended by two phaser arrays and one photon launcher, so an outpost at the border with a mortal enemy would be more heavily defended.
Evidence that they can maintain their torpedo refire rate indefinitely, please.
ST:Nemesis. Don't give me that bullshit that it is the Ent-E and not the Ent-D, it was not so long that their torpedo technology would have dramatically improved.
Propably because she didn't think it would survive long enough to fire all of them. Anyway, since we're ALREADY using 400 torpedoes, that point is rather moot.
No it isn't. If a few Galaxies, or even one Galaxy or even a Sovereign could defeat a Borg Cube, then the Borg would not be a "mortal threat to the Federation". Have you seen BOBW, the Ent-D fires at a Borg cube for like ten minutes, they had to beam aboard and try to save Picard. It would take two and a half minutes for them to empty their entire payload. Or that 20 ship fleet in ST:FC would have disabled the Borg cube's shields in seconds with their 30k TW phasers, and the fleet's combined firepower would have blown huge holes in the cube a la Q Who. That's why the 40 megaton cube shielding figure is ridiculous.

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Post by Rye »

Batman wrote: I'm reasonably certain This site has nothing on Shadow/Vorlon shields and it's usually (rightfully so, IMHO) considered more reliable than b5tech.
I just went to b5tech for the photos, really.
The vorlons 3+ planetkillers I have no idea.
One at Coriana 6, two at Centauri Prime. See here
No, I meant their age. (please could a mod delete mmy previous post? thanks.)
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Post by Nephilim »

brianeyci wrote:Also the "thousands of Vorlons and Shadow ships" is a load of bullshit. Unless hyperspace is excruciatingly slow, thousands of Vorlon and Shadow ships would be able in short order to split into fleets of several hundred, and annihilate the YR. When the Vorlons were doing their planetkilling, it took quite awhile.

The Vorlons and Shadows have an undefined industrial capacity. What if they just have one homeworld, al la "Trek race of the week" in Voyager? How quickly can they build ships? The Federation can build 50 - 100 large frame ships a year (Galaxies etc) and 1000 small frame ships a year (Defiants). Borg resources far exceeds this, with thousands of star systems. How the hell fast can the Vorlons or Shadows build? The Borg's variables are defined or known, and a lot of the Vorlons/Shadows variables aren't, so the Borg win by default.

Brian
Too bad, its canon as written by JMS himself in the comics "In Valen's Name". Ivanova is describing the Battle of Corianna VI and explicitly says that there were 10,000 Vorlon ships, 10,000 Shadow ships, and 8,000 AoL ships at the battle. In the case of the Vorlons, this was a fleet that was protecting their planetkiller, another was present at Centauri Prime and B5Wars states that there were 3 planetkillers built. Its not unreasonable to assume that each fleet was equal in size yielding a total of 30,000 Vorlon ships dedicated towards eradicating those who had come into contact with the Shadows.

As for the Vorlon's and Shadows industrial capability, take Legion of Fire Trilogy, which is canon unless contradicted by the show and was written based on an outline by JMS himself. Xha'Dam, and Shadow base the size of a planet built a planetkiller very very fast, estimated between an hour and a day as the complex was activated and the planetkiller was finished and then another immediately began construction and IIRC was nearing completion before it was destroyed. This implies a ridiculous speed of construction for such large structures.
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Post by brianeyci »

Also Batman, your point earlier about 30k TW figure being "outdated" is a load of shit. Unless ST:TWOK was decanonized, it will never be "outdated". If another scene exists which shows lower firepower, what we have is a greater range and another low-end estimate and the 30k TW figure is still just as valid but just not the lowest estimate.

Since we keep using low-end estimates, want to know what the low-end estimate of B5 firepower is? I'll just bring up the Whitestar shooting at those defense emplacements on Mars.

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Post by FOG3 »

brianeyci wrote:Also the "thousands of Vorlons and Shadow ships" is a load of bullshit. Unless hyperspace is excruciatingly slow, thousands of Vorlon and Shadow ships would be able in short order to split into fleets of several hundred, and annihilate the YR. When the Vorlons were doing their planetkilling, it took quite awhile.
There were thousands just deployed with the VPK fleets as we know from a certain Whitestar finding something it wasn't supposed to see in a certain episode. Besides which the Shadows and Vorlons goals weren't to annihilate the Younger Races, if you didn't catch on to that. So saying they can't have thousands of ships because they weren't doing something that wasn't their goal, while having to deal with the possibility of the opposing power hitting their deployed fleet is BS.

They were idealists who'd hit the point where as they were losing the war of ideals and they decided to forciably erase the Shadow philosophy. Then as the Vorlons have upped the anty the Shadows deploy their own and the YR got caught in the middle again. Stomping all the YR into non-exiatence wasn't really the plan and goes completely contrary to their role of Guardians, as bad as job as they admittedly did.

I seem to remember a line by Sheridan that was something to the effect of, "Once those Planet Killers showed up on the scene I realized this war wasn't about defeating the Shadows. You had the technology to destroy Zha'ha'dum all along. This is about who's right." It's as much a war of philosophies as anything else. That was the main focus not extermination, not conquest, not resources, or anything else along those lines.
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Post by Rye »

brianeyci wrote: Take a look at this. Just because we don't see the interior of a Vorlon ship and hear the retarded Trek "raise the shields!" (IMO this should be automatic as soon as they go to red alert), it doesn't mean they don't have shields. Look at this screen. Who cares if it doesn't look like a bubble around the ship a la Trek style? It spreads the beam shot over the hull, a defense mechanism. It is a hull-hugging shield, just like the Battlestar Galactica has a hull hugging shield.
I should note that the whitestars have a shield that works like that, and they are partially based on vorlon tech.
Nope, the Vorlons and Shadows show that they have hull hugging shields. If their shields were gone, *SPLAT*.
The shadow shields seem to work right up until they blow up, which would imply that the "shielding" or rather, the defensive capabilities, is more likely an attribute of the actual biology.
We shouldn't ignore everything we know about biology and the infeasibility of organic armor just because we say that the Vorlons/Shadows are more "advanced".
Nah, this is bollocks, Batman already addressed this. The ships DO work, like 8472 ships DO work, despite being biotech, there doesn't seem to be a magic "off switch" to turn off the magic biopowers to become realistic. It seems it just does work. There's nothing to actually back up what you're saying, is the point.
Organic armor is a fucking oxymoron.
Not really, i can concieve of all sorts of carbon based armour ;).
Sure. Cause the only thing the Vorlons and Shadow ships have going for them right now is hyperspace.
That remains to be seen.
No, they have tougher shields.
Personally, I'm starting to agree with batman, in into the fire we see a vorlon lightning gun intercept a slizer, so I'm prepared to accept that big green glare as the same thing, since I can't think of any other examples of shieldhood on the vorlons' part that aren't likely a property of the hull, like the shadows or the whitestar. Whether such a shield can be "knocked down" is still in question.
Too bad, Vorlon and Shadow ships have hull hugging shields. That's why they're more resilient than YR ships.
Actually, we see a slizer beam go through a dreadnought arm and it keeps on trucking.
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Post by Batman »

brianeyci wrote:Sigh. Okay Batman, I'll shoot off another reply even though I'm supposed to be studying =D
Don't blame me for YOU valuing those silly debates over real wordl studies. :P
Batman wrote:That would be true if B5 would follow real-world physics. Unfortunately, as we see those biological hullss be much more resilient that YR ships that DO use dense armor...
Since when do Vorlon/Shadow vessels have shields?
Take a look at this.
Absorption/retransmission. This does require shields why exactly?
Just because we don't see the interior of a Vorlon ship and hear the retarded Trek "raise the shields!" (IMO this should be automatic as soon as they go to red alert), it doesn't mean they don't have shields.
Um-yes it does since they're never ever mentioned leave alone seen elsewhere. What has the interior of the ship got to do with it? Since it's an organic entity chances are we wouldn't be able to tell its shield generators from its appendix.
Look at this screen. Who cares if it doesn't look like a bubble around the ship a la Trek style? It spreads the beam shot over the hull, a defense mechanism.
Indeed. One that happens to be a function of the hull. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, of course.
It is a hull-hugging shield, just like the Battlestar Galactica has a hull hugging shield.
Not that Galactica figures into this, but there's no more evidence for BG hull-hugging shields than there is for SBC ones. Namely, none.
Where does that 'dense' part come from, the Vorlons/Shadows ALREADY show resilience in excess of dense armor, and I don't recall NDF weapons doing so hot against Species 90210, so that point is rather moot.
Nope, the Vorlons and Shadows show that they have hull hugging shields.
Erm-NO, they don't. Evidence for shields, please. Your visuals show evidence for absorption/retransmission. No shields required.
If their shields were gone, *SPLAT*. We shouldn't ignore everything we know about biology and the infeasibility of organic armor just because we say that the Vorlons/Shadows are more "advanced". Organic armor is a fucking oxymoron.
That nevertheless happens to exist in the B5verse. It's called Suspense of Disbelief.
Using Species 8472 as a way to discredit all of NDF theory is retarded. 8472 could tear a Borg cube apart in a few shots so Borg cubes don't have time to lower 8472's hull hugging shields
Evidence of those shields please.
8472 could have been took advantage of the same weakness transphasic torpedoes did a la armor piercing.
How in blazes is that relevant to Species bioships being resilient to NDF weapons?
Yet they're more resilient than ships that DO,
No, they have tougher shields.
For the existence of which you have yet to bring up a sigle piece of evidence. They take it on the hull.
Ever thought why he even bothered to mention it? Because it doesn't happen that way. B5 Vorlon/Shadow vessels are CANONICALLY more resilient to weapons fire than metal armored ones. Hell, TREK bioships didn't show the SPLAT effect that you so much wish to be there. That's why that BrainBug IS THERE. B5 bioships HAVE that resilience. Deal with it.
Too bad, Vorlon and Shadow ships have hull hugging shields.
PROVE IT FUCKFACE.
That's why they're more resilient than YR ships. See the above screenshot and tell me that's not a defense shield at work.
It isn't. See above explanations. No energy shield is ever mentioned in regards with Vorlon/Shadow leave alone YR ships throughout 5 years worth of episodes and 5 TV movies.
Now tell me for how long that beam actually WAS fired. That 5 second figure comes from where?
Nowhere asshole, that's why I said either five seconds or two seconds based on how I remember. I can't tell how long the beam was fired from a screenshot ass.
So you admit it's a guesstimate. Fine. I happen to agree it's moderately reasonable.
LOW megaton to low gigaton, with low megaton being much more realistic.
No its not. I'll answer this below.
22MT, over a completely unknown amount of time, over its entire shield area. Vs 12 MT over a second or two all of which hits the same 9 or so sqaure meters of shield area.
22 MT Borg shielding is really retarded (see below).
Liar. 22MT to 90MT is a completely reasonable estimate of Borg shield strength.
Fine fuckface, gloves come off. 90 MT Borg Shield strength is retarded. Want to know why? I'm lazy at converting units, so I'll take BabTech's figure that 50,000 TJ is 12 MT. Now, if Borg shields were 50 MT, that's around 250,000 TJ of shielding. Use the fucking 30k TW estimate on phaser strength on shields. That means a Borg ship's shields are fucking down after eight seconds of phaser fire from a 150 year old Connie.
Happily ignoring that
a)those 30PW don't refer to a Connie, and
b)it is CLEARLY based on the defunct 64 MT TM torpedo (you don't get 24 MT of delivered energy out of an at-best 450KT torpedo, you know).
BTW, UNLIKE the Galax the Connie was a warship
c)We have NEVER seen a Borg cube exposd to 8 consecutive seconds of phaser fire
d) that figure assumes NDF effects apply when we KNOW Borg can adapt to phasers so only their base energy input applies. We're down to 1-10TW assuming Borg shields are conitionally IMMUNE to NDF.
A Borg ship without shields has huge holes blown into it by phasers and torpedoes a la TNG Q Who.
A Borg ship is made of basically empty space as of Q Who.
Obviously, eight seconds of phaser fire cannot down a Borg ship's shields, or the 40 ships at Wolf 359 would have annihilated the Borg ship.
Happily ignoring that the Borg are canonically capable of adapting to the component of phasers that make them much stronger than their base energy input, and that the effect they have even with that is vastly exaggerated as it is based on the TM 64MT torpedo.
DS9, a heavily armed battlestation, had one thousand photon torpedoes and fired torpedoes quite rapidly.
So?
More proof against your idiotic claim that Fed torpedo launchers have too high a refire rate to empty the majority of their payload at Wolf 359. I was going to answer this in the other post, but why not do it now.
And that is relevant how, unless you have proof of
a) them having the same lauchers DS9 got during its upgrade,
b) numbers on their sustained refire rate?
1. Connies and Excelsiors shoot torpedoes at around 1 a second (ST:VI)
Up to a total of IIRC 6 or 8 torpedoes each. Proof that they didn't have to reload their ready magazines, please.
2. Galaxy is capable of burst fire and 1 torpedo a second (TNG)
For how long?
3. Voyager is capable of burst fire. (VOY)
For how long?
4. Sovereign can fire three quantums at once (ST:FC)
How often, for how long? Canon yield on quantums= Time she can sustain that refire rate?
5. The Sovereign emptied its entire torpedo payload against the Scimitar in Nemesis in the minutes the scene lasted.
Evidence she had a full load, please. She fired exactly the number of torpedoes we saw/hear fired on-screen. Which is how many?
It also fired at around one per second.
Did she, or did she not sustain that ROF for more than 6-10 torpedoes?
Not there were any Sovereigns at Wolf 359, of course.
Then you say, "Nooooo, there must be some slow torp launchers out there..." bullshit. All the torp launchers we've seen fire at around one a second, by Occam's Razor all torp launchers fire at one a second
In burst mode, which they can maintain for how long?
and take around a minute if you want to prepare a large spread.
Evidence that that is how long it takes and that every launcher can do this, please? The only one I REMEMBER doin it is the Galaxy. All the others fire on torp per tube at a time.
And we don't know exactly the refire rate of each class of vessel, but unless there was a dramatic change in torpedo firing technology, by Occam's Razor it is safe to say that most ships have this ability to fire one per second
No.
and continue firing a la Ent-E.
And no again. The E-E was a purpose-designed warship which didn't exist at Wolf 359. The only (IIRC) ship to ever use torpedo spreads was the Galaxy. 1 per second is their burst capacity. You have no idea how long reloading the ready torpedoes after that takes. You have no idea wether or not any other ship HAS that capacity. I very much suspect you don't even know how many torps the E-E fired in Nemesis, and how many of them were in short sequence. Occam's Razor says that most TNG ships can maintain 1-per-second ROF for 4-8 torps, and that Galaxies can fire spreads. That's IT.
You're not going to get any better info on the refire rate without making the TM's canon.
I have all the info I need. YOU are the one who wants infinetely-sustainable once-per-second refire rates and torpedo spreads for all launchers...
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Post by Batman »

OK, on we go...
brianeyci wrote:
Evidence that those outpost were heavily fortified military installations and not fucking listening posts or customs stations, please. Evidence they were MEANT to stand up to entire Warbird fleets instead of tripwire communications posts to basically yell 'They're coming'.
If they were just listening posts or customs stations, fucking the Federation would have been overrun by the Romulan cloaking device long ago. The Federation had no way to detect cloaked vessels except with stationary tachyon grid early TNG and for the hundreds of years of silence. If the Romulans wanted to attack, all they needed to do was concentrate a large force on one section of the neutral zone, break through, and wreak havoc with their cloaking device.
I DO seem to recall cloaked Romulan vessels being able to be detected at high Warp (Tin Man comes to mind, but I admit up front this may be my imagination), but wether or not they CAN detect them is completely pointless: Arming NZ outposts to the teeth is completely pointless since there's no reason why the Romulans should bother to engage them. They'll just happily go around them unless they're even more monumentally stupid than the Klingons are.
They did not. We know that Romulans are expansionist and aggressive. So the outposts must have detered them, by Occam's Razor.
Garbage. See above, and there's no reason the outposts were the deterrent in the first place, as opposed to Starleet going medieval on them in retaliation. IF they feel up to taking on Starfleet, the outposts are a non-consideration as they can be happily ignored. If they DON'T,the outposts don't matter.
Federation archaeological sites are defended by two phaser arrays and one photon launcher, so an outpost at the border with a mortal enemy would be more heavily defended.
I notice how you curiously refrain from giving any firepower numbers on those...
Fine. The outposts are protected by four phaser arrays and two torpedo launchers.
Hey-they are twice as heavily defended :evil:
Evidence that they can maintain their torpedo refire rate indefinitely, please.
ST:Nemesis. Don't give me that bullshit that it is the Ent-E and not the Ent-D, it was not so long that their torpedo technology would have dramatically improved.
No, it was merely a dedicated battlecruiser vs a do-it-all let's-us-it-as-a-warship vessel. And since Nemesis was not infinitely long, they did NOT maintain that ROF indefinitely. Number of torpedoes fired in what timeframe, please. If the ROF does NOT remain constant, length of bursts and delays between them, please.
Propably because she didn't think it would survive long enough to fire all of them. Anyway, since we're ALREADY using 400 torpedoes, that point is rather moot.
No it isn't. If a few Galaxies, or even one Galaxy or even a Sovereign could defeat a Borg Cube, then the Borg would not be a "mortal threat to the Federation".
So you agree they do NOT have thousands of Cubes?
Have you seen BOBW, the Ent-D fires at a Borg cube for like ten minutes, they had to beam aboard and try to save Picard.
Yes. I have also seen that the E-D (propably due to Riker's tactical stupidity) does NOT make use of her impressive refire rate, and uses mainly phasers which the Borg can adapt to...
It would take two and a half minutes for them to empty their entire payload.
Utterly and completely unsupported.
Or that 20 ship fleet in ST:FC would have disabled the Borg cube's shields in seconds with their 30k TW phasers,
To which the Borg can adapt (those 30 PW are against AQ shields, which suffer from the technobabble effects), where does that 20 ship number come from, wat ships were those...
and the fleet's combined firepower would have blown huge holes in the cube a la Q Who.
Which of course was BEFORE the Borg adapted to AQ weapons.
That's why the 40 megaton cube shielding figure is ridiculous.
Maybe in Bryaneyciland.

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Post by Batman »

While we're at it, Brianeyci, where pray tell does TWOK indicate 30PW phaser firepower against anything?
Oh, and he're one for the hobby psychologists-why do I keep spelling shields shileds?
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Post by Howedar »

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Howedar wrote:
Gustav32Vasa wrote:How many ISDs have we seen on screen?
In other words, you cannot support your statement. Concession accepted.
No, I want to know where you get the idea that the Borg has only the number of ships we see on screen. So even if we know that the SW empire has 25000 ISD you only accept 2 dozen ISD.
Actually, that number is never explicitly stated. It comes from logical analysis and interpretation of the available data, all of which points to a fleet with not less than about 25,000 Star Destroyers.
Chakotay has been linked to the Borg, says they have millions of cubes but since we have only seen 15 cubes at the same time they cant have more. :roll:
The Cube "estimates" are in no way similar. We have two sets of data and they are not in agreement. We've seen the Borg in combat against their most deadly foe to date, and we saw not more than a few hundred cubes. We've seen the Borg center of operations, and we saw not more than a few hundred cubes. We've seen Borg border space, and we saw not more than a few dozen cubes. Pray tell, where the fuck did the rest of them go? The only, and I mean only[/i] data that suggests more than a few thousand cubes is an off-the-cuff statement by Chakotay. Chakotay may have been linked to the Collective, or linked to drones that had been linked to the Collective, but this does not mean he has access to every bit of information stored within the hive mind. I have sat in a great many lectures without necessarily absorbing all of the data contained therein. I have read many books that had information I didn't pick up. To grant any level of validity to Chakotay's statement, you need to demonstrate that he accessed that particular item of data from the untold vastness of the Borg hive mind's total database.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Gustav32Vasa wrote:No, I want to know where you get the idea that the Borg has only the number of ships we see on screen.
Strawman fallacy, fucktard. The reasonable extrapolation from the number of ships they have onscreen is a few thousand cubes, based on a few cubes per system. We have never seen even a fraction of this number onscreen; if we were really limiting it to onscreen ship counts as you falsely accuse us of doing, it would be no more than a few dozen.
So even if we know that the SW empire has 25000 ISD you only accept 2 dozen ISD.
2 dozen ISDs to patrol 1 million systems? From an organization that build a fucking death star between ANH and ROTJ? In a universe where a goddamned shipping company can blockade a backwater resort planet with thousands of 2 mile wide ships? Where the Executor alone is as massive as a thousand ISDs? You're a fucking moron as usual.
Chakotay has been linked to the Borg, says they have millions of cubes but since we have only seen 15 cubes at the same time they cant have more. :roll:
This bullshit claim of yours was shredded before, asshole. Chakotay was never linked to the whole Borg collective, and even if he had been, it does not logically follow that he now knows everything that they know, idiot. WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THEY NEEDED 7 OF 9'S EXPERTISE ON THE BORG AFTER THIS POINT IF CHAKOTAY HAD ABSORBED ALL OF HER KNOWLEDGE, YOU WORTHLESS LYING SACK OF SHIT? I made this point earlier, and not only did you not bother answering it, but you keep repeating your earlier claim like a fucking broken record; broken-record debating is not acceptable on this forum, asshole.
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

I dont see the Borg winning a fights agaunst them.and Shadows have fought each other on and off for the last Million years AT LEAST. This means they have had that time to experiment with there tech and such


The Shadows and Vorlon shave shown how nasty they can be tech wise...the Vorlons created telepaths while the Shadows created the Technoages.
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Post by Howedar »

So many words, so little substance.
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Post by brianeyci »

Howedar wrote:So many words, so little substance.
You tried reading through me and Batman's exchanges? Think how much of a headache it gives me having to reply to Batman's nitpicks, claiming that the entire payload of the Ent-D can destroy a Borg cube. I'm putting it off for as long as possible so I can absolutely crush his argument with a picture of White Star bombarding Mars with some screenshots (IIRC decidely kiloton level), argue that three Sharlin warcruisers can destroy a Shadow ship, and thus kiloton level beams can destroy a Shadow ship since Batman wants to use the Pegasus event, why not use the lowest estimate of beam firepower in B5 (if you have any lower estimate, tell me where to look and save me the trouble).

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Post by Darth Wong »

Shadow ships aren't that tough, but Trek ship hardiness is up in the air as well. And let's face it; Borg weapons aren't that powerful, otherwise they'd be killing ships on the first hit (we see what appears to fit this criterion in STFC, but those ships have been engaged for some time; the E-E easily shrugged off a direct hit at close range with no damage).
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