New BSG Premier: "33" and "Water"

[StarshipTitanic]

Sorry, I forgot to explain the picture. The inset shows what is behind the Mk. II Viper between the A and B. The A and B on the inset help prove the red dotted fighters were behind the Viper.

[Admiral Valdemar]

On the hydroponics and agro. thing, a lot of it can be circumvented using a lot of genetic tinkering and microbial specimens.

To assume they are all eating brilliant meals as they would on their homeworld is ludicrous anyway. For a warship, MREs would be suitable enough with near infinite shelf-lives. The other ships, however, could readily be converted to hydroponics which have their own problems, though they can be worked out. The supply of nutrients can be achieved by sending brief mining expeditions to planets or gas giants. What can't already be given directly, can be synthesized through microbial intermediates. All biologics use the same basic compounds and they're also the most common compounds at that, so nutrient supply is really not all that much a problem.

Nor, even, is light. Space is dark, damn dark. And contrary to any sci-fi show, we'd not be seeing the light we see otherwise. It'd be pitch black in deep space, so light for such plants would have to be from artificial sources because you can't rely on the solar levels alone.

The other food stuffs can be small animals, as Broomstick mentioned, but they do require far more effort and can be grossly inefficient given the things move and respire heavily (water isn't all that much a problem if you have efficient recyclers in the waste and atmosphere plants).

A basic microbe can be geneered to carry all the essential supplements for an adult and also have the advantage of being highly efficient energy and resource-wise and taking little space up, think Quorn or similar myco-protein sources. Huge vats could be made and the end result shaped and maybe garnished to spice it up. In space, you have limited everything, and being a fussy eater isn't good.

That leaves ammunition. Given projectile weapons, they will have problems, and even if they didn't fire them out at the rates they do, sooner or later they'll need to replenish. Shouldn't be too much of a problem given basic ores and a ship that has some degree of refining that ore and making it into suitable projectile shapes. As to what they use in place of cordite or whatever, I'd assume some hydrocarbon source which can be refined once again by other means.

In terms of population size, 50,000 is more than adequate to start another civilisation up. Assuming they don't fall drastically further in terms of numbers, then they should be peachy. Besides, if they do reach Earth, their problems are solved in terms of numbers. Assuming it's the Earth of today and that the Cylons don't (once again) find Earth too.

The immediate problems are manpower and units. While everything else is replaceable in one form or the other, trained personnell are not replaced easily. Pilots, engineers, scientists, doctors, whatever. Lose too many of these and you're up shit creak without a paddle. So it'd be wise to have a school system to make anyone jealous. Getting kids around 14 and up to join and learn the basics is a start. Hopefully they won't have to ever draft such young people into the warfare aspect, but it could happen.

I think that sums up the main resource worries.

[Broomstick]

This is like the food problem - WHERE are they going to get food? Grow it? OK... that means either dirt or hydroponics, and I presume they have strictly limited supplies of either. Which means you either make dirt (mix dust with organic matter) or make chemicals (I didn't see a refinery ship, did you? Same problem as for metals), then devote some of their very finite space to growing food.

Colonel Tigh mentioned meat requirements -- I don't think they have the living space for that much of a food chain. Meat is a luxury they can't afford.

I would assume that the Colonial fleet has some semblence of pre packaged rations for their deployments. MRE's if you will. If they stocked up at the depot, then it might be likely they stuffed as many 'emergency rations' as possible. These don't solve their food problem, just delays it a bit like the ammo and fuel problems.

Clearly, yes, they'd need preserved foodstocks until they could get adequate resources for agricultural production. I would expect everyone to be living on exactly that for awhile.

If they increase their numbers the living space problem becomes even worse - more cubic units needed for living bodies, less available for storage and processing of materials.

I don't know, with the sheer size of the Galactica and the various other ships in the fleet, and only ~50 thousand people, I really don't see to much problems with space. Air, water, fuel, and bullets yes. Space, no.

Ah, but how big are those ships really? Some of that space is taken up by engines and fuel. Plumbing and wiring. It's not configured for maximum efficiency for longterm living - cripes, people on Colonial One seem to be living and sleeping in chairs! Sure, you can tolerate that for a short while, but people need beds of some sort, even if they size of berths in submarine. People need some privacy, if they can't get away from each other occassionally you'll have fights breaking out. You'll need workspace for the various chores and activities required. And you'll need lots and LOTS of storage space. Any time they can take on supplies of anything they must do so to the maximum they can. I'd expect to see MRE's stacked under the seats of Colonial One, for example.

If you consider living for the rest of your life on something the size of a 747, a 747 suddenly isn't that big anymore. Even a cruise ship isn't that big anymore. An aircraft carrier is HUGE, but ask anyone who has served aboard one just how much personal space they were alloted - pretty damn little, because so much other space was devoted to necessary shipboard activities.

I am rather puzzled at the high ceilings in the Galactica's passageways... perhaps it was necessary for the psychological health of the crew on long voyages (even warships must consider psychological factors to some degree) Perhaps it is necessary to allow movement of large machinery through those corridors. Perhaps they were fit into open spaces in the overall structure and it was simply not necessary to further enclose the space. We really don't know the reasoning behind some of the design of the ship, do we?

[Knife]

Ah, but how big are those ships really? Some of that space is taken up by engines and fuel. Plumbing and wiring. It's not configured for maximum efficiency for longterm living - cripes, people on Colonial One seem to be living and sleeping in chairs! Sure, you can tolerate that for a short while, but people need beds of some sort, even if they size of berths in submarine. People need some privacy, if they can't get away from each other occassionally you'll have fights breaking out. You'll need workspace for the various chores and activities required. And you'll need lots and LOTS of storage space. Any time they can take on supplies of anything they must do so to the maximum they can. I'd expect to see MRE's stacked under the seats of Colonial One, for example.

If you consider living for the rest of your life on something the size of a 747, a 747 suddenly isn't that big anymore. Even a cruise ship isn't that big anymore. An aircraft carrier is HUGE, but ask anyone who has served aboard one just how much personal space they were alloted - pretty damn little, because so much other space was devoted to necessary shipboard activities.

I am rather puzzled at the high ceilings in the Galactica's passageways... perhaps it was necessary for the psychological health of the crew on long voyages (even warships must consider psychological factors to some degree) Perhaps it is necessary to allow movement of large machinery through those corridors. Perhaps they were fit into open spaces in the overall structure and it was simply not necessary to further enclose the space. We really don't know the reasoning behind some of the design of the ship, do we?

I watched Colonial One land in one of the landing bays the other night. With a military presence of only ~2000 split between ship operations, pilots, Marines, and assorted others, I don't think that the total space designed for fighters/shuttles/aux craft will be utilized. And those are just the 'carrier wings' and not the large chunk in the middle.

Some of those other ships, judging by the names, are cargo craft which would imply large holds of some sort. Hell, even on Colonial One, it has a hold large enough for a Viper to land/dock on it. These vast spaces are actually perfect to set up small comunities in, seperate from shipboard activities and functions. Plus, multifunction area's would obviously need to be implemented.

On a side not, I've been on quite a few Naval ships. Multipurpose large open area's are designed into them. Mess decks, whale decks, flight decks are all used for various activities besides what the name implies.

[Broomstick]

On the hydroponics and agro. thing, a lot of it can be circumvented using a lot of genetic tinkering and microbial specimens.

Well, maybe.

Part of the "feel" of this show is the sense that, with just a few exceptions, these people aren't that much ahead of us technologically.

Clearly these folks are ahead of us in propulsion technology and computer science (FTL and Cylons), but are they equal to us in genetic engineering?

To assume they are all eating brilliant meals as they would on their homeworld is ludicrous anyway.

Actually, most of what we've seen people eating looks like plain noodles.

For a warship, MREs would be suitable enough with near infinite shelf-lives. The other ships, however, could readily be converted to hydroponics which have their own problems, though they can be worked out.

Gee, I dunno - you ever try to set up hydroponics? I agree, the problem can be worked out, but you may wind up having to adapt a lot of things, or make them from scratch - in the BSG universe you can't run out to the local hardware store anymore.

And, eventually, the MRE's run out - ideally you want to grow enough to not only feed people but also to replace emergency stores.

The supply of nutrients can be achieved by sending brief mining expeditions to planets or gas giants.

But, as "Water" demonstrated, not all resources are located in the same place. You may have more than enough iron and sulfur but run short of selenium. Or something else. And once you solve that problem something else will run low.

Meanwhile, you'll still be dodging Cylons...

Our intrepid survivors will be quite busy for the foreseeable future.

What can't already be given directly, can be synthesized through microbial intermediates. All biologics use the same basic compounds and they're also the most common compounds at that, so nutrient supply is really not all that much a problem.

Really?

If it's so easy to do, why aren't WE doing it right now, instead of continuing to rely on petrochemicals to generate fertilizers for our own agriculture?

With microbes, you also have a mutation problem. There's more radiation in space than on a earth-like planetary surface -- and these folks are in a war with an enemy that flings nukes. Everybody in the fleet has been irradiated to one degree or another. And so has every microbe aboard. Microbes have MUCH faster generations than macro-sized animals, and it's harder to spot random hazardous mutations in bacterial/yeast colonies. How much time are folks going to have to spend checking and re-checking the food-bugs?

Mir was in space only 11 years, and still protected somewhat by Earth's magetic field. Yet there was significant growth of microbes and fungi, and detectable mutations. This is a problem. You don't want your pseudomeat fungus suddenly churning out a new toxin.

The other food stuffs can be small animals, as Broomstick mentioned, but they do require far more effort and can be grossly inefficient given the things move and respire heavily

Alright, rats are inefficient - grow cockroaches and eat THEM. I mean, we already know they're relatively resistant to radiation, they eat just about anything including things people can't eat, and raised under controlled conditions they can be kept disease free. Keep some termites around for converting celluose to food as well. It's icky, but it'll work and the damn things are probably on board some if not all of the ships already.

(water isn't all that much a problem if you have efficient recyclers in the waste and atmosphere plants).

Well, except for the occassionaly pesky Cylon sleeper-agent

A basic microbe can be geneered to carry all the essential supplements for an adult and also have the advantage of being highly efficient energy and resource-wise and taking little space up, think Quorn or similar myco-protein sources. Huge vats could be made and the end result shaped and maybe garnished to spice it up. In space, you have limited everything, and being a fussy eater isn't good.

Does Quorn, in fact, supply B12? Because B12 is a limiting resource in regards to humans. The only reliable source is animal protein (including insects).

The immediate problems are manpower and units. While everything else is replaceable in one form or the other, trained personnell are not replaced easily. Pilots, engineers, scientists, doctors, whatever. Lose too many of these and you're up shit creak without a paddle. So it'd be wise to have a school system to make anyone jealous. Getting kids around 14 and up to join and learn the basics is a start. Hopefully they won't have to ever draft such young people into the warfare aspect, but it could happen.

You can also cross-train adults. In fact, they'll probably have to. Nor do you have to start from zero.

For instance, every ship in the fleet has at least one trained pilot already, and apparently two or more are common. Some may be military veterans with military piloting experience. Some may be willing to add those skills to their current repetoire. Meanwhile, there may be others willing to take pilot training first on civilian shuttles but willing to later move up to military craft.

Paramedics can be converted to a rough sort of doctor, as can nurses - they can certainly handle many routine cases and would have a good basis for further, more advanced medical training. Meanwhile, again, train civilians to step into their roles.

And yeah, kids are going to have to grow up fast - possibly taking on fully adult roles at 15 or 16. Our long childhoods are a luxury most past civilizations could not afford. I would expect to see a LOT of on-the-job training going on.

[StarshipTitanic]

Some more observations I made while rewatching the two episodes.

"33"

There are 63 ships total in the fleet, counting the Galactica. There were 63 civilian ships until the Olympic Carrier was destroyed.

"Procreation is one of God's commandments" The Cylons find the construction of more Cylons to be very important, which naturally makes sense.

"Water"

BSG 75 means Battlestar Group 75. This could mean that the Galactica is a "type 75" battlestar, not the seventy-fifth battlestar or number seventy-five.

The decoration on the top of Apollo and Adama's sashes looks similar to the collar pins for Galactica crewmembers in the original series.

The Galactica has at least 15 decks.

[Alyeska]

I am rather impressed with the series so far. I caught the second half of the BSG miniseries and thought it was pretty good. The first two episodes are also quite good.

Just somethings I noticed and thought about.

Adama mentions sending out a message stating he was taking command of the Colonial fleet remnants. This indicates that the BSG wasn't the sole surviving naval asset. There should be some other warships out there. And I am not talking about the Peagasus. I am wondering how they might work Peagasus into the series and if she might stay or be killed off.

Is Boomer, the human Boomer dead? I missed those earlier parts. If thats the case, I have to wonder what the series is planning. Boomer was a main character in the original BSG, I don't see them getting rid of the Cylon Boomer (at least one of them). The BSG Cylon Boomer suspects she is a Cylon, but seems to be trying to fight what is going on. Might make for some interesting plot points.

One final thing. The Cylons appear to be fairly bent on the whole God issue. Six wasn't the only one. Remember the Cylon that Commander Adama beat up? He also talked about God.

[StarshipTitanic]

Adama mentions sending out a message stating he was taking command of the Colonial fleet remnants. This indicates that the BSG wasn't the sole surviving naval asset.

It doesn't indicate anything, Adama was assuming that he was the highest-ranking officer still alive because his ship was immune to the software bug.

Is Boomer, the human Boomer dead? I missed those earlier parts.

There was never a human Boomer. She said she was raised in an orphanage when she was talking to Boxey, so she must have been planted by the Cylons at least 20 years prior to the attack.

[Alyeska]

Eh, those COULD be implanted memories. I was under the impression human looking Cylons are fairly new. Baltar was fucking Six for only 2 years or so.

[Alyeska]

It doesn't indicate anything, Adama was assuming that he was the highest-ranking officer still alive because his ship was immune to the software bug.

The software bug that Baltar was talking about with someone else wiped out the ENTIRE fleet for the Colonials? I have to wonder how they will even try to work Peagasus into the series.

[StarshipTitanic]

Eh, those COULD be implanted memories. I was under the impression human looking Cylons are fairly new. Baltar was fucking Six for only 2 years or so.

Humans have had absolutely no contact with the Cylons since they left 40 years prior. Baltar might have only been important recently, while getting several sleepers planted in the military needed to start earlier.

[StarshipTitanic]

It doesn't indicate anything, Adama was assuming that he was the highest-ranking officer still alive because his ship was immune to the software bug.

The software bug that Baltar was talking about with someone else wiped out the ENTIRE fleet for the Colonials? I have to wonder how they will even try to work Peagasus into the series.

It's Pegasus.

Baltar was working on navigation software for the Colonial military. He allowed Six to place "back doors" in the software that she said her company would exploit later. The Cylons used these back doors to open up a door to the entire computer system aboard Colonial craft. They could shut off ships like flipping a switch. The reason why the Galactica didn't have many Mark VIIs was because her squadron of 20 was destroyed because of this.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Part of the "feel" of this show is the sense that, with just a few exceptions, these people aren't that much ahead of us technologically.

Clearly these folks are ahead of us in propulsion technology and computer science (FTL and Cylons), but are they equal to us in genetic engineering?

We've never had a chance to see this (from what I recall of the series). But if the new Cylon threat is anything to go by, technology is far ahead of us in a fair few areas potentially. Unlike ST, they don't plan each episode out to be a showreel of stuff they have in the future that we don't have (a good thing).

Actually, most of what we've seen people eating looks like plain noodles.

Exactly. Bar the occasional slap-up meal for special occasions in the officer's mess or at the captain's table, it's pretty much what you need, rather than what you'd like.

Gee, I dunno - you ever try to set up hydroponics? I agree, the problem can be worked out, but you may wind up having to adapt a lot of things, or make them from scratch - in the BSG universe you can't run out to the local hardware store anymore.

It's either that or they die. Having to adapt is what makes species superior to those below it. If the BSG guys want to have a shot at this, they'll have to think out of the box. I'm aware that in the mini they had huge hydroponics vessels (for some reason like the Valley Forge out of Silent Running with the huge dome that works only near stars), so they may have at least had the nouse to make kits on a smaller scale. They at least have the knowledge to set up such a thing, albeit, only on decent sized cargo vessels. I'd see them moving a fair few people around to get the best ratio first.

And, eventually, the MRE's run out - ideally you want to grow enough to not only feed people but also to replace emergency stores.

I'd save the MREs for emergency situations. If a lead "farming" ship ites the bullet, then it may be replaced or salvaged. In the meantime, at least some food exists.

Of course, doing any real work would be best suited for when the Cylons aren't in such close pursuit, a rare thing however.

But, as "Water" demonstrated, not all resources are located in the same place. You may have more than enough iron and sulfur but run short of selenium. Or something else. And once you solve that problem something else will run low.

Hey, life's a bitch.

Meanwhile, you'll still be dodging Cylons...

Our intrepid survivors will be quite busy for the foreseeable future.

Naturlich. If they had a Culture GSV and thus a moveable civilisation for all intents and purposes along with "the weaponry at the end of the universe", then the series wouldn't even be worth an episode of Friends. *shudder*

Really?

If it's so easy to do, why aren't WE doing it right now, instead of continuing to rely on petrochemicals to generate fertilizers for our own agriculture?

A lot of products today are made by microbes, you just don't see it. I guarantee there are at least 3 products a day you ingest or use that came froma microbe. Everything from cola, to computer screens.

With microbes, you also have a mutation problem. There's more radiation in space than on a earth-like planetary surface -- and these folks are in a war with an enemy that flings nukes. Everybody in the fleet has been irradiated to one degree or another. And so has every microbe aboard. Microbes have MUCH faster generations than macro-sized animals, and it's harder to spot random hazardous mutations in bacterial/yeast colonies. How much time are folks going to have to spend checking and re-checking the food-bugs?

Typically, these vats they'd be in would be quite well shielded (and usually large; seeing these things in the flesh and knowing what's inside is an eery experience), but in the event of such a problem, you'd have to likely throw out the contents and perhaps start again. The disadvantage here is also the advantage as it makes problems quicker to spot.

On the other hand, microbes exist that can shrug off radiation as if it was a summer's shower. If these started mutating and dying, then you've got bigger problems (say the crew dying long before the microbes even feel it).

I'd be more worried about phage contamination than radiation to be honest. Radiation goes away. Phages do not.

Mir was in space only 11 years, and still protected somewhat by Earth's magetic field. Yet there was significant growth of microbes and fungi, and detectable mutations. This is a problem. You don't want your pseudomeat fungus suddenly churning out a new toxin.

That'd make a great episode though. Especially if it became an amorphous blob of a monster and escaped. Uh, maybe that's not their style (I'm channeling Berman & Braga it seems).

Alright, rats are inefficient - grow cockroaches and eat THEM. I mean, we already know they're relatively resistant to radiation, they eat just about anything including things people can't eat, and raised under controlled conditions they can be kept disease free. Keep some termites around for converting celluose to food as well. It's icky, but it'll work and the damn things are probably on board some if not all of the ships already.

Not appetising, but when it's that or death or more noodles, they'll be begging for that somewhat lively sustenance.

Well, except for the occassionaly pesky Cylon sleeper-agent

Shhh, you're not meant to know about them and thus factor them into the problem.

Does Quorn, in fact, supply B12? Because B12 is a limiting resource in regards to humans. The only reliable source is animal protein (including insects).

Quorn does indeed contain B12 last I checked, which can only be a good thing. It's also at least able to be turned into something other than goop and keep morale up (that's another resource; morale). If not, there are alternatives and geneering can be used. Quorn is au naturale really and we haven't seen the full extent of what we can do in this field, letalone a space faring race.

You can also cross-train adults. In fact, they'll probably have to. Nor do you have to start from zero.

The adults are the only reason they exist right now, so keeping them in tip-top shape is a must.

For instance, every ship in the fleet has at least one trained pilot already, and apparently two or more are common. Some may be military veterans with military piloting experience. Some may be willing to add those skills to their current repetoire. Meanwhile, there may be others willing to take pilot training first on civilian shuttles but willing to later move up to military craft.

Paramedics can be converted to a rough sort of doctor, as can nurses - they can certainly handle many routine cases and would have a good basis for further, more advanced medical training. Meanwhile, again, train civilians to step into their roles.

And yeah, kids are going to have to grow up fast - possibly taking on fully adult roles at 15 or 16. Our long childhoods are a luxury most past civilizations could not afford. I would expect to see a LOT of on-the-job training going on.

Most nations that have had a shortage of personnell have resorted to using kids, whether they wanted to or not. Hell, there was an example of a 14-year old boy being the youngest pilot in the RAF in WWII. He was eventually found and kicked out until he was 16. Although the higher stresses of high-gee combat in space and the difficulty of getting used to Newtonian mechanics may limit a little more to who can go up so soon.

[Old Plympto]

One of the things I thought of about the replenishment of military supplies, and even Vipers, is that they come across Pegasus, maybe a battlestar that was lost in the first Cylon war?

I hope they get Jeff Bridges to play Commander Caine. Heh heh.

[Broomstick]

Unlike ST, they don't plan each episode out to be a showreel of stuff they have in the future that we don't have (a good thing).

That's another thing I like... some of the stuff looks like it has a history What we see of Caprica city, for instance - some of it looks like stuff that might have been around for centuries, made by a less advanced civilization. And that makes sense, because we don't tear down whole cities and completely replace them every 50 years.

I also like Adama's book collection.

Actually, most of what we've seen people eating looks like plain noodles.

Exactly. Bar the occasional slap-up meal for special occasions in the officer's mess or at the captain's table, it's pretty much what you need, rather than what you'd like.

Absolutely. However, they'll still look for ways to maximize variety, at least for the civilians. You can do quite a bit with even small quantities of herbs and things like hot peppers - both of which grow well hydroponically or in dirt.

They might well develop a cuisine based on bland things like noodles and the variety will be contained in broths and sauces.

Another course their cooking could take is to stop short of noodles and go to largely unprocessed grains. Things like wheat, barley, and millet can be eaten cooked like rice, which shortens processing time considerably and also keeps more nutrition in the food. In which case noodles might become a luxury food.

Freeze-drying to preserve food should be no problem - they have lots of vacuum available to them for free.

I think quite a bit of the food growing labor might be done by kids with some adult supervision. Not only is it work they are capable of doing, if you're dealing with anything low their smaller height would be an advantage.

Really?

If it's so easy to do, why aren't WE doing it right now, instead of continuing to rely on petrochemicals to generate fertilizers for our own agriculture?

A lot of products today are made by microbes, you just don't see it. I guarantee there are at least 3 products a day you ingest or use that came froma microbe. Everything from cola, to computer screens.

I don't drink cola... but the bread and cheese on my table utilize yeast, which I would consider in the same category for this discussion. Of course, we've had those for what, 10,000 years more or less?

Much of what we use microbes for involves microbes we "captured" from the wild that were doing things we just happened to find useful for us as well... some of this is pretty low tech. But you're talking about specifically engineering properties into cells, and while we can do that it's not an easy process (for us) which is one reason the products of such engineering still tend to be pricey. Also, such items might require processing to remove unwanted biological byproducts.

The idea is certainly valid, but I think you should be careful not to overestimate the utility of a particular form of engineering.

Also, I'd think that if they do have some small livestock and they are at all capable of maintaining it they will do so. And they may well set up those biological vats alongside. There's no reason not to have parallel technologies running side-by-side.

I don't know if they have a medical ship, either, but if they do they might be able to preserve sperm samples, frozen embryos, and seeds which could become extremely important in maintaining genetic diversity in both the human species and in their agricultural species.

Alright, rats are inefficient - grow cockroaches and eat THEM. I mean, we already know they're relatively resistant to radiation, they eat just about anything including things people can't eat, and raised under controlled conditions they can be kept disease free. Keep some termites around for converting celluose to food as well. It's icky, but it'll work and the damn things are probably on board some if not all of the ships already.

Not appetising, but when it's that or death or more noodles, they'll be begging for that somewhat lively sustenance.

Or grind them up into a sauce or paste. There's lots you can do to disguise unplesent appearance or alter texture.... you just hope they taste pleasent enough for people to choke the stuff down.

Does Quorn, in fact, supply B12? Because B12 is a limiting resource in regards to humans. The only reliable source is animal protein (including insects).

Quorn does indeed contain B12 last I checked, which can only be a good thing. It's also at least able to be turned into something other than goop and keep morale up (that's another resource; morale). If not, there are alternatives and geneering can be used. Quorn is au naturale really and we haven't seen the full extent of what we can do in this field, letalone a space faring race.

You know, I went up to several pages with information on Quorn. Did you know egg albumen is used in its manufacture? Which means you need a source of eggs, or a different way to process it.

I always wondered why CSPI ("the food police") was so anti-Quorn, and it might be the eggs that do it - they essentially want everyone to become a vegan, no exceptions.

As another item - fungal fibers might well become a replacement for paper as well - these folks do seem rather fond of writing notes to each other and themselves. Could also be used to create fabrics as well.

[Broomstick]

One of the things I thought of about the replenishment of military supplies, and even Vipers, is that they come across Pegasus, maybe a battlestar that was lost in the first Cylon war?

I think the door is open for them to either encounter derelict ships from the prior war, or to come across lone survivors on the run. After all, there could have been other FTL-capable ships in other systems that fled before the Cylons they might stumble across (although the odds are against that, it's possible) either still functioning or derelict. It's also possible that some eccentric group or other took and FTL ship out to uncharted space during peacetime either to get away from everyone else, or to look for the lost colony of Earth.

But I'd get pissed if they started using that as a weekly plot device.

[Admiral Valdemar]

That's another thing I like... some of the stuff looks like it has a history What we see of Caprica city, for instance - some of it looks like stuff that might have been around for centuries, made by a less advanced civilization. And that makes sense, because we don't tear down whole cities and completely replace them every 50 years.

I also like Adama's book collection.

Yeah, it's a more realistic feel, even if it's another civilisation entirely. Something Trek never achieved, even with ST: ENT.

Absolutely. However, they'll still look for ways to maximize variety, at least for the civilians. You can do quite a bit with even small quantities of herbs and things like hot peppers - both of which grow well hydroponically or in dirt.

They might well develop a cuisine based on bland things like noodles and the variety will be contained in broths and sauces.

Another course their cooking could take is to stop short of noodles and go to largely unprocessed grains. Things like wheat, barley, and millet can be eaten cooked like rice, which shortens processing time considerably and also keeps more nutrition in the food. In which case noodles might become a luxury food.

Freeze-drying to preserve food should be no problem - they have lots of vacuum available to them for free.

I think quite a bit of the food growing labor might be done by kids with some adult supervision. Not only is it work they are capable of doing, if you're dealing with anything low their smaller height would be an advantage.

It'd be good if they could get all the major cargo ships turned into farms especially and have all the liners etc. used for living.

I don't drink cola... but the bread and cheese on my table utilize yeast, which I would consider in the same category for this discussion. Of course, we've had those for what, 10,000 years more or less?

Much of what we use microbes for involves microbes we "captured" from the wild that were doing things we just happened to find useful for us as well... some of this is pretty low tech. But you're talking about specifically engineering properties into cells, and while we can do that it's not an easy process (for us) which is one reason the products of such engineering still tend to be pricey. Also, such items might require processing to remove unwanted biological byproducts.

The idea is certainly valid, but I think you should be careful not to overestimate the utility of a particular form of engineering.

Given future technology, something I'm certain the Colonies had enough of, it's certainly not something to overlook. They need not use it just for food. Mining certain ores uses chemolithoautotrophs (try saying that 3 times) that leach metals. I could list a whole host of things they could be used for, but you get the picture.

Also, I'd think that if they do have some small livestock and they are at all capable of maintaining it they will do so. And they may well set up those biological vats alongside. There's no reason not to have parallel technologies running side-by-side.

I don't know if they have a medical ship, either, but if they do they might be able to preserve sperm samples, frozen embryos, and seeds which could become extremely important in maintaining genetic diversity in both the human species and in their agricultural species.

Battery farming will be the best method here. It may not be as healthy in ways, but it's more efficient and so that's what they should aim for.

The frozen sperm and eggs idea is sound. That'd certainly be a good Plan B should too many people lose out on starting up when they find a new home.

Or grind them up into a sauce or paste. There's lots you can do to disguise unplesent appearance or alter texture.... you just hope they taste pleasent enough for people to choke the stuff down.

Mmm, space weevil sautéed in recyc-wine. Just pretend it tastes like crunchy king prawn and hope the guests don't notice.

You know, I went up to several pages with information on Quorn. Did you know egg albumen is used in its manufacture? Which means you need a source of eggs, or a different way to process it.

Yeah, I recall reading about that somewhere ages ago too come to think of it. I had a few notes on Quorn in general last year. Eggs would be provided by poultry which is another nice battery farming commodity, assuming they have such animals around. If not, other mycroprotein can be used. IIRC, sea weed and certain algae hold B12 in them as well, just in case.

I always wondered why CSPI ("the food police") was so anti-Quorn, and it might be the eggs that do it - they essentially want everyone to become a vegan, no exceptions.

As another item - fungal fibers might well become a replacement for paper as well - these folks do seem rather fond of writing notes to each other and themselves. Could also be used to create fabrics as well.

Hmm, I don't know about using hyphae (the fungal fibres) as paper. They're certainly thin, maybe too thin. But fungal enzymes are used in the pulping process and paper is easy enough to recycle. Anything non-essential can be e-mailed instead. Fabrics can be produced via other means too, nylon is, afterall, manmade, though coal may be a bit hard to come by...

Always hemp at least.

[taralon]

Hmm, I don't know about using hyphae (the fungal fibres) as paper. They're certainly thin, maybe too thin. But fungal enzymes are used in the pulping process and paper is easy enough to recycle. Anything non-essential can be e-mailed instead. Fabrics can be produced via other means too, nylon is, afterall, manmade, though coal may be a bit hard to come by...

Always hemp at least.

There is always thermal depolymerization. Its been around for a long time, just hasn't been a cost effective way of doing things. Now that the high temp/low pressure method has finally been worked out it may be a viable method of producing feed chemicals.

[paladin]

BSG 75 means Battlestar Group 75. This could mean that the Galactica is a "type 75" battlestar, not the seventy-fifth battlestar or number seventy-five.

It could simply be the group Galactica ia a part of in the Colonial Fleet. However, your guess is as good as mine as to how many Battlestars would make up a Battlestar Group.

[SCVN 2812]

To find derelicts from the previous war they would have to jump back into the zone of extreme danger - the area that the Twelve Colonies had already charted. At the end of the mini-series they jump 'way past the red line' into unknown space. Its why Galactica is able to hide so effectively and they have to search for everything they're looking for. They aren't in their known space anymore.

The Cylon war was fought in known space because iirc it was a rebellion, the Cylons revolted and eventually left the Twelve Colonies and known space - probably due to the extreme likelihood of loosing to attrition as more and more Cylon production facilities and the infrastructure that supplied them with the materials necessary to build new Cylons were retaken or destroyed.

That's not saying that a few ships might have suffered freak accidents and ended up beyond the red line and activated their rescue beacons in the vain hope that someone might come for them.

I seriously doubt the Cylons were able to wipe out the entirety of the Colonial fleet with their computer trick but probably such a significant portion of it that the fighting was quick and brutal with the ships that could actually defeat a Basestar in battle being the newest and most likely to suffer a sudden critical systems failure.

[Broomstick]

If not, other mycroprotein can be used. IIRC, sea weed and certain algae hold B12 in them as well, just in case.

I looked into that when I started cooking with wakame and nori and the like - there is NO non-animal natural source of B12 that is at all reliable. In the case of seaweed and algae, the variable B12 levels in them could be accounted for by animal contamination (animal plankton, shrimp, crab-crap, etc.) And those levels do vary enormously. I will also point out that such items grown under controlled conditions in a vat will not be exposed to random ocean-critters.... although, depending on circumstances, you might well be able to set up enough shrimp in such a vat as to provide the B12... but it might be just as easy to refine it from the shrimp. Yeast and tempeh with B12 is almost alway supplemented through artificial means, again, frequently through the use of animal-source items. Or chemistry.

Now, BSG's universe might, indeed, have the chemistry to produce a reliable, non-animal source of B12... but we do not. To be honest, extrapolating from our current knowledge and know-how, I'd say creating an artificial source of usable B12 is much more plausible than, say, an FTL drive.

Resourcefulness is vital here. Think about it - all you need are a couple of ornamental acquariums on this liner or that one (clearly they have ships that function as our ocean-going cruise ships do) to have the necessary basis to start acquaculture - just build a bigger tank and hope the beasties breed. It's odd but in fact luxury liners - decorated with plants, fish, perhaps even a small aviary - may provide some of resources for a varied diet. If we could bring ourselves to eat parakeets (actually, I'm told Australian Aborigines consider both parakeets and cockatiels good eating... if a bit on the small side)

As another item - fungal fibers might well become a replacement for paper as well - these folks do seem rather fond of writing notes to each other and themselves. Could also be used to create fabrics as well.

Hmm, I don't know about using hyphae (the fungal fibres) as paper. They're certainly thin, maybe too thin. But fungal enzymes are used in the pulping process and paper is easy enough to recycle.

I've actually made paper, starting with raw materials, pulping them, and through to the finished product.

You don't need chemicals to make paper - just suitable fibers suspended in water. Certainly chemicals can improve the texture and durability, but much of what is written on paper is ephermeral. What becomes difficult, with subsequent recyclings, is the color - but they can probably make bleach easily enough. Also, when you recycle there is always a certain unavoidable loss.

The fungal fibers might work better when mixed with other fibers, but that's nothing unusual in paper (or cloth) making either. I would expect the raw fibers would give you something like nori, which is essentially algae fillaments grow on a flat frame, and which is very paperlike in consistency.

For writing, though, slate and chalk might well make a big comeback. Both are mineral, and should be obtainable from floating rocks.

Anything non-essential can be e-mailed instead.

No, it can't - these folks aren't going to set up computer networks, remember? Their systems are kept delibrately isolated.

Fabrics can be produced via other means too, nylon is, afterall, manmade, though coal may be a bit hard to come by...

Always hemp at least.

Hemp must be grown.

You can also grow flax, which provides linen fiber (through a rotting process aided, yes, by micro-organisms) which is excellent for both cloth and paper (fine paper is still made with linen today) as well as providing edible linseed oil, an oil that can also be used for lubrication.

One things for sure, these people are going to become really, really good at recycling.

Which, not to be too icky (well, OK, it IS really icky) brings up the issue of recycling people. I don't think using people as a food source is a good idea - that's how you get prion diseases running rampant (Just ask the Fore tribe of New Guinea about that) but there are ways of utilizing human bits and pieces that might be a good choice under such dire survival circumstances. A human carcass can provide bone - suitable for making all sorts of tools, from combs to handles to... well, all sorts of things. A human carcass can provide leather - that's clothing, or even a durable writing surface. Sinew for sewing and binding. Collagen. Prior to death, human hair can be spun into coarse thread, twine, and rope (I've actually done this with my own hair). Certain types of human hair can be processed into felt. There's a HUGE cultural chasm you'd have to leap... on the other hand, an item made of the actual bits of a loved one might become a treasured keepsake.

I have no idea how you'd handle writing that into a script for TV, though. Well, maybe the use of hair from living people, but the rest... very hot-button as a topic.

[Alyeska]

Do we have any idea how many Vipers a single Battle Star can carry? Do we know how many Vipers BSG started with? They are loosing them at an alarming rate.

Anyway I do see the Galactica running into more humans. The Cylons had more or less been preparing for attacking Colonial space and should have left most of the "unknown" space untouched. There are doubtlessly multiple human colonies that were developed over the years. Potentialy even locations with moderately new weapon systems (say the classic style Vipers even) that BSG can make use of. I can also see some other Colonial warships potentialy escaping. The Battle Star class Strike Carrier (best designation for it) is a good multi purpose platform, but the Colonial navy had to have some different types of warships. Finding a destroyer or cruiser to help protect the fleet would be nice.

[Darwin]

An upcoming episode (4, Act of Contrition) will state exactly how many vipers the Galactica has remaining. I forget the total. I can look it up later. ^^;

[StarshipTitanic]

An upcoming episode (4, Act of Contrition) will state exactly how many vipers the Galactica has remaining. I forget the total. I can look it up later. ^^;

Please, no spoilers for future episodes! American viewers will see that episode a week from the 21st.

[Darwin]

I don't believe that was a spoiler.