Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs
Moderator: NecronLord
The Hover movement of a Dom is not flight, nor does it resemble it. The best way to describe it is to say that the Mobile Suit "skates" on the air cushion provided by it's jet engines. The suit's feet are no more than a few feet of the ground.
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Except your mecha is a fucking HOUSE. no way you can miss a fuckingSAMAS wrote:It is if you're trying to fire at the extreme ranges you claim your guns will be constantly trying to fire at. A shift of a single degree can make you go quite a few meters off when firing over a mile away.
house at 5 klicks.
90mm guns? My god, it's World War II tech levels!Zaku's armament has ranged from 120mm Machineguns, which are stated to have a greater explosive effect and range, and High-velocity 90mm machineguns, which are smaller, but have greater damage due to higher velocity. This is why the majority of Mobile Suits in 0080 and 0083 use the 90mm guns, rather than the older 120mm guns used by Zakus in First Gundam and 08th MS Team.
How can these automatic weapons fire 90mm or 120mm shells without
any significant recoil? Hmm?
Answer: They have SHIT velocity. Muzzle velocity is GOD in long range
duels.
The 120 and 90 MGs will miss the tiny T-90 by several KILOMETERS,
while the T-90's 125mm smoothbore will not miss, firing advanced
DU rounds (hint, the Iraqis in the Gulf War were firing STEEL PRACTICE
ROUNDS at Allied Forces)
All modern tank guns can fire shells at a velocity exceeding a KILOMETER
A SECOND. At 5 km, that's a 5 second lead time, which isn't that hard
with a target the size of a house.
And then they blow their servos out trying to lift their feet out of the mud.But they are right in that the mud is not going to be a problem. First of all, Their sheer size means that the mud is less likely to get past their feet.
People have lost BOOTS that have been laced up to mud, you know...
<sarcasm>Second, mobile suits have moved and fought in river beds(08th MS Team episode 3), and in said episode, a Zaku II even jumped out of the river in question.
My god, they can cross a river! They're so Special!
</sarcasm>
A T-90 can ford a river 5 metres deep with preparation.
Except they run SMACK DAB into the best SAM system ever designed,Thirdly, the debate gave them Zeon air power as well. Zeon Aircraft not only include fighters like the Dopp, and helicopters such as the Gunship Heli, but also Massive flying frotresses such as the Gau and Zanzibar-class Mobile Cruiser. These not only can easily be used to carry Mobile Suits to the battlefield over the mud, but also carry considerable firepower on their own(including the ever popular Beam Cannon). But most importantly, they bring the all-important Minovsky Particle Jamming with them. Kiss your radar goodbye.
a system that SHUT THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE DOWN, a system that
MOVES WITH THE T-90s, the finest close air defense systems: '
the ZSU series AAA Tanks, and the SA-13 mobile launchers.
And how are they going to close the range as they waste all their energyAnd Fourth, before the end of the One Year War, the Zaku II and the Gouf had already been replaced by the Dom as the standard Zeon Mobile Suit. Zakus continued to be used solely on the sheer number that had been built. With a running speed of 90km/h, and a hovering speed of 240km/h, they can close any range gaps quickly and easily.
trying to cross the mud? It's going to be *squelch squelch squelch* as
the Suits cross the field of battle laboriously single step by single step,
fighting the mud every step of the way. And if they go airborne, they become
targets for the Refleks.
Here's a fucking hint SAMAS, go out after a bad rainfall and try
walking across a muddy field without getting fucking tired.
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"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Time for SIZE COMPARISON TIME AGAIN!SAMAS wrote:It is if you're trying to fire at the extreme ranges you claim your guns will be constantly trying to fire at. A shift of a single degree can make you go quite a few meters off when firing over a mile away.
Which do you think has a better chance of hitting it's target at
5 km?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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No, they'd run into SA-11's, possibly 17's, SA-15's and 2S6M Tunguska's SPAAG/SAM tracks, systems a generation more advanced then what saw action in 1973. Of course the systems which saw action in 1973 Still knock down aircraft today. All of these systems can operate in E/O mod without the need for radar. And then there's the SA-16/18 MANPADS that every Russian IFV and APC has a rack for and that are issued enmass to the troops.MKSheppard wrote:
Except they run SMACK DAB into the best SAM system ever designed,
a system that SHUT THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE DOWN, a system that
MOVES WITH THE T-90s, the finest close air defense systems: '
the ZSU series AAA Tanks, and the SA-13 mobile launchers.
However the scenario did not indicate that the entirety of each side's armed forces was upgraded to their latest standards. If it is then the mecha's are beyond utterly fucked.
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20,000 T-90's in field at once would be quite a bitch to deal with. Unless of course you swapped the Sherman production run for something a bit more modern. 50,000 M1A2SEP's..consequences wrote:The numbers of armored vehicles fielded over the course of WWII upgraded to today's standards would give me nightmares.
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Hey Shep, where did you get that MS-06R1-A from? I though they didn't make these any more.MKSheppard wrote:Time for SIZE COMPARISON TIME AGAIN!SAMAS wrote:It is if you're trying to fire at the extreme ranges you claim your guns will be constantly trying to fire at. A shift of a single degree can make you go quite a few meters off when firing over a mile away.
Which do you think has a better chance of hitting it's target at
5 km?
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That's because a house doesn't:MKSheppard wrote:Except your mecha is a fucking HOUSE. no way you can miss a fuckingSAMAS wrote:It is if you're trying to fire at the extreme ranges you claim your guns will be constantly trying to fire at. A shift of a single degree can make you go quite a few meters off when firing over a mile away.
house at 5 klicks.
- move
- shoot back
5 SECONDS?!90mm guns? My god, it's World War II tech levels!Zaku's armament has ranged from 120mm Machineguns, which are stated to have a greater explosive effect and range, and High-velocity 90mm machineguns, which are smaller, but have greater damage due to higher velocity. This is why the majority of Mobile Suits in 0080 and 0083 use the 90mm guns, rather than the older 120mm guns used by Zakus in First Gundam and 08th MS Team.
How can these automatic weapons fire 90mm or 120mm shells without
any significant recoil? Hmm?
Answer: They have SHIT velocity. Muzzle velocity is GOD in long range
duels.
The 120 and 90 MGs will miss the tiny T-90 by several KILOMETERS,
while the T-90's 125mm smoothbore will not miss, firing advanced
DU rounds (hint, the Iraqis in the Gulf War were firing STEEL PRACTICE
ROUNDS at Allied Forces)
All modern tank guns can fire shells at a velocity exceeding a KILOMETER
A SECOND. At 5 km, that's a 5 second lead time, which isn't that hard
with a target the size of a house.
Five seconds to hit something that can chage position, and even direction, in one? You're only wasting your ammuniton..
And you're underestimating the force it would take to move a Mobile Suit's arm, particularly when braced, and the gun itself has a recoil-supression system(Zakus actually have to hold their 120mm guns with both arms, and they're still moved by the recoil).
Beter yet, let's go to a MS-14G Gelgoog(Ground Type.) Beam Rifles have a stated range of about 10[/i] km, and hit in less than a second.
Or the 680mm artillery cannon of the Xamel...
Boots, yes. Feet, no. Especially not to mud that doesn't reach the tops of your feet. I haven't lost half-laced tennis shoes to that.And then they blow their servos out trying to lift their feet out of the mud.But they are right in that the mud is not going to be a problem. First of all, Their sheer size means that the mud is less likely to get past their feet.
People have lost BOOTS that have been laced up to mud, you know...
Try thirty-plus. Without. And can still use all weapons coming out.<sarcasm>Second, mobile suits have moved and fought in river beds(08th MS Team episode 3), and in said episode, a Zaku II even jumped out of the river in question.
My god, they can cross a river! They're so Special!
</sarcasm>
A T-90 can ford a river 5 metres deep with preparation.
Which do little damage. These are literal flying fortresses. The Gau is essentially a flying aircraft carrier(comes with it's own fighter escourts), and the Zanzibar is a spaceborne warship with guns that can hit targets hundreds of km away.Except they run SMACK DAB into the best SAM system ever designed,Thirdly, the debate gave them Zeon air power as well. Zeon Aircraft not only include fighters like the Dopp, and helicopters such as the Gunship Heli, but also Massive flying frotresses such as the Gau and Zanzibar-class Mobile Cruiser. These not only can easily be used to carry Mobile Suits to the battlefield over the mud, but also carry considerable firepower on their own(including the ever popular Beam Cannon). But most importantly, they bring the all-important Minovsky Particle Jamming with them. Kiss your radar goodbye.
a system that SHUT THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE DOWN, a system that
MOVES WITH THE T-90s, the finest close air defense systems: '
the ZSU series AAA Tanks, and the SA-13 mobile launchers.
And let's not forget Minovsky Particle Jamming. In short, your SAM's radar is worthless. The only way you're going to be able to launch at them is when you see them, And by then, you're in range of their oh-so-large guns.
These babies are powered by nuclear reactors. They have energy to spare.And how are they going to close the range as they waste all their energyAnd Fourth, before the end of the One Year War, the Zaku II and the Gouf had already been replaced by the Dom as the standard Zeon Mobile Suit. Zakus continued to be used solely on the sheer number that had been built. With a running speed of 90km/h, and a hovering speed of 240km/h, they can close any range gaps quickly and easily.
trying to cross the mud? It's going to be *squelch squelch squelch* as
the Suits cross the field of battle laboriously single step by single step,
fighting the mud every step of the way. And if they go airborne, they become
targets for the Refleks.
And with the Zanzibar and Gau carriers, they don't have to worry about the mud until they're deploying onto the combat zone. Not that the mud is deep enough to worry them.
Been there, done that.Here's a fucking hint SAMAS, go out after a bad rainfall and try
walking across a muddy field without getting fucking tired.
Not an armored Jigglypuff
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The Zaku II has a fusion reactor that puts out 951 kW of energy.SAMAS wrote: These babies are powered by nuclear reactors. They have energy to spare.
Compared to that, the Daimler-Benz DB-605 Inline V-12 engine
of the BF-109 puts out: 995 kW
*BZZZZT*
Try again, Armored Jigglypuff.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Gotta love Sci-Fi when the designers don't know jack about real world structures and power requiremetns. It creates things like a Modern RPG team tearing up Battle tech, based only on the KE calcs.
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Even more ironic is that the T-90 has theTHe Yosemite Bear wrote:Gotta love Sci-Fi when the designers don't know jack about real world structures and power requiremetns. It creates things like a Modern RPG team tearing up Battle tech, based only on the KE calcs.
V-84MS 618 kW (840 hp) four-stroke V-12 Multi-Fuel Engine, which develops
67% of the power of your mythical fusion plant, while the T-80 has a gas
turbine putting out as much as your mythical fusion plant:
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/gtd-1250.html
GTD-1250
Power 1250 hp (920 kW)
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Wow, lots of pages. I think mechs are cool too, but with all due respect to mech afictionados like Big Steve, it is a simple matter of ratios:
PS. I can't believe I just agreed with Shep on something. Oh well, it happens ...
- A mech has a far higher ratio of structure to armament than a tank
- A mech has a far higher ratio of mass to ground contact area than a tank
- A mech has a far higher ratio of target profile to armament than a tank
- A mech has a far higher ratio of internal equipment, technology, and support systems dedicated to locomotion (as opposed to weapons) than a tank
- A mech has a far higher ratio of height to width than a tank.
- A mech has a far higher ratio of cost to armament than a tank.
PS. I can't believe I just agreed with Shep on something. Oh well, it happens ...
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Like when you stap into a pile of dogshit and say "FUCK FUCK FUCK" and startDarth Wong wrote: PS. I can't believe I just agreed with Shep on something. Oh well, it happens ...
frantically wiping your sole on the grass....
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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And they only have 8 missiles total each mech, compared to 40 MaingunSAMAS wrote: Believe me, that makes a hell of a difference in a fight. Especially when that movement rate is 240km/h, and it and it's teammates are firing 360-880mm missiles at you.
rounds in each of my T-90s.
And something the size of a house is still easy to hit, no matter what
it does.
Then why do we have examples of kills happening at 5 km against5 SECONDS?!
Five seconds to hit something that can chage position, and even direction, in one? You're only wasting your ammuniton..
2 m tall tanks, much less 17.5 m tall mecha?
Beter yet, let's go to a MS-14G Gelgoog(Ground Type.) Beam Rifles have a stated range of about 10[/i] km, and hit in less than a second.
And the characters spend a long time getting a laser lock to get 1 shot
kills
And let's not forget Minovsky Particle Jamming. In short, your SAM's radar is worthless. The only way you're going to be able to launch at them is when you see them, And by then, you're in range of their oh-so-large guns.
BWHAHAHHAHAHA
Shut the fuck up SAMAS, you forget that the Russians LOVE IR.
They were the FIRST to put IR sensors as standard on fighters,
like the SU-27 FLANKER. They spot you from 20 km away and
fire their IR guided missiles from that range and splat you.
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"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Actually given the fact that the scaling, the lack of bleeding ears, the low wieght compared to volume, the fact that fand aimed weapons & shields can intercept Missiles & Machine gun rounds. Show that except for beam cannons nothing used by MSG's original universe actually exceeds the speed of sound.
Also given the relative inacuuracy (Time to get a laser lock for a beam cannon), machine gun misses against fixed structures, and "jeeps", the Mobile suit is an unstable firing platform.
Now, 5 seconds, against a vehicle that doesn't have any sensors that tells him that the round is on it's way, is one thing, but since they are almost always moving. Take this into account.
1. Contrary to your suggestion back in Space Battles, the magority of the Ground attack missiles, are IR guided, and Yes tanks DO possess thermal optics in real life, why they don't in MSG or Gasaraka, I dont know.
2. Computer controled IR guiding lasers can keep track of an object moving as fast as a Zaku II. (Try dodging a continuous beam at C)
3. The Missle which is moving at 5 times the speed of sound will strike with more KE, and thermal force then anything in MSG short of a Beam Cannon.
Also given the relative inacuuracy (Time to get a laser lock for a beam cannon), machine gun misses against fixed structures, and "jeeps", the Mobile suit is an unstable firing platform.
Now, 5 seconds, against a vehicle that doesn't have any sensors that tells him that the round is on it's way, is one thing, but since they are almost always moving. Take this into account.
1. Contrary to your suggestion back in Space Battles, the magority of the Ground attack missiles, are IR guided, and Yes tanks DO possess thermal optics in real life, why they don't in MSG or Gasaraka, I dont know.
2. Computer controled IR guiding lasers can keep track of an object moving as fast as a Zaku II. (Try dodging a continuous beam at C)
3. The Missle which is moving at 5 times the speed of sound will strike with more KE, and thermal force then anything in MSG short of a Beam Cannon.
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Heh, and the Sabot rounds on the Russkie 125mm smoothbores reachTHe Yosemite Bear wrote:Actually given the fact that the scaling, the lack of bleeding ears, the low wieght compared to volume, the fact that fand aimed weapons & shields can intercept Missiles & Machine gun rounds. Show that except for beam cannons nothing used by MSG's original universe actually exceeds the speed of sound.
1800 m/sec
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"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Looking back through this thread, I found this:
In other words, powerplant output: less than 1300 horsepower. That's pathetic. When your super-advanced mecha has a weaker power plant than a typical monster truck, you're not going to win a lot of battles.Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Just some info for the Zaku II:
Dimensions: head height 17.5 meters
Weight: empty 58.1 metric tons; max gross 73.3 metric tons
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 951 kW
Bad units. The reason that aircraft companies rate jet engine thrust in units of pounds is that there are two kinds of pounds: lbf and lbm. It is a legitimate unit of force. Kilograms, on the other hand, are NOT a legitimate unit of force under any circumstances. I imagine we can multiply these figures by roughly 10 to convert them to Newtons, assuming Earth-normal gravity is the context upon which the figures are based. This gives its main thrusters roughly 410 kN of force.Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 20500 kg, 2 x 1000 kg
Did you notice that it's vastly larger than a tank and yet has roughly the same weight? Its armour is obviously feeble; it would get shredded at long-range by modern tank armament. Its own armament must be similarly feeble if it can survive hits from similar weapons; probably very low-velocity rounds.Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.59 G; 180-degree turn time 1.7 seconds; maximum ground running speed 88 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors, range 3200 meters
Optional fixed armaments: 2 x 3-tube missile pod, mounted on legs
Optional hand armaments: 120 mm machinegun, drum-fed, 100 rounds per drum, spare drums can be stored on waist armor racks; 280 mm Zaku bazooka, 4 round magazine, can be stored on rack on rear waist armor; heat hawk, battery powered, can be stored on waist armor racks; cracker grenade, can be stored on optional storage rack on waist armor racks
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
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MKSheppard wrote:And they only have 8 missiles total each mech, compared to 40 MaingunSAMAS wrote: Believe me, that makes a hell of a difference in a fight. Especially when that movement rate is 240km/h, and it and it's teammates are firing 360-880mm missiles at you.
rounds in each of my T-90s.
And something the size of a house is still easy to hit, no matter what
it does.
Then why do we have examples of kills happening at 5 km against5 SECONDS?!
Five seconds to hit something that can chage position, and even direction, in one? You're only wasting your ammuniton..
2 m tall tanks, much less 17.5 m tall mecha?
Beter yet, let's go to a MS-14G Gelgoog(Ground Type.) Beam Rifles have a stated range of about 10[/i] km, and hit in less than a second.
And the characters spend a long time getting a laser lock to get 1 shot
kills
And let's not forget Minovsky Particle Jamming. In short, your SAM's radar is worthless. The only way you're going to be able to launch at them is when you see them, And by then, you're in range of their oh-so-large guns.
BWHAHAHHAHAHA
Shut the fuck up SAMAS, you forget that the Russians LOVE IR.
They were the FIRST to put IR sensors as standard on fighters,
like the SU-27 FLANKER. They spot you from 20 km away and
fire their IR guided missiles from that range and splat you.
As I said, and he fucking snipped, every modern Russian radar guided tactical SAM system has an electro optical system, which can be used in the event of radar disruption.
Now he's just fucking lieing. Stupid mech wanker.
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Not to mention the fact that the tanks have an nine to one advantage in numbersMKSheppard wrote:And they only have 8 missiles total each mech, compared to 40 MaingunSAMAS wrote: Believe me, that makes a hell of a difference in a fight. Especially when that movement rate is 240km/h, and it and it's teammates are firing 360-880mm missiles at you.
rounds in each of my T-90s.
And something the size of a house is still easy to hit, no matter what
it does.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
- MKSheppard
- Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
- Posts: 29842
- Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm
The Russians never had that kind of ratio in Dec. 1941.Sea Skimmer wrote: Not to mention the fact that the tanks have an nine to one advantage in numbers
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
- Sea Skimmer
- Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
- Posts: 37390
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
- Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Germans invaded with 2,400 significant tanks, Russians had around 22,000 though many where spread through the Unions central and Far Eastern regions. They might not have faced Russian armor nine to one, but that was the disparity in availbul units.MKSheppard wrote:The Russians never had that kind of ratio in Dec. 1941.Sea Skimmer wrote: Not to mention the fact that the tanks have an nine to one advantage in numbers
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
- Sea Skimmer
- Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
- Posts: 37390
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
- Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Ba, I missed the Dec note. Forget what I said. Still the Russian did have something like a three to one advantage. It was there inability to control them that made them effectively inferior as a whole. But every T-90 has a radio..Sea Skimmer wrote:Germans invaded with 2,400 significant tanks, Russians had around 22,000 though many where spread through the Unions central and Far Eastern regions. They might not have faced Russian armor nine to one, but that was the disparity in availbul units.MKSheppard wrote:The Russians never had that kind of ratio in Dec. 1941.Sea Skimmer wrote: Not to mention the fact that the tanks have an nine to one advantage in numbers
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
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- Homicidal Maniac
- Posts: 6964
- Joined: 2002-07-07 03:06pm
Ah Vasiliy's page! Love that pageMKSheppard wrote:Even more ironic is that the T-90 has theTHe Yosemite Bear wrote:Gotta love Sci-Fi when the designers don't know jack about real world structures and power requiremetns. It creates things like a Modern RPG team tearing up Battle tech, based only on the KE calcs.
V-84MS 618 kW (840 hp) four-stroke V-12 Multi-Fuel Engine, which develops
67% of the power of your mythical fusion plant, while the T-80 has a gas
turbine putting out as much as your mythical fusion plant:
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/gtd-1250.html
GTD-1250
Power 1250 hp (920 kW)
If we make them T-90M Vladimir tanks with the welded instead of cast turret, they also get the V-92S2 1,000hp engine
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