Battletech technical archive

[Typhonis 1]

Still what gets me is the low production numbers we see. The Wasp was in service for how long? And they only managed to make what, 20,000 of em ?

[PainRack]

Still what gets me is the low production numbers we see. The Wasp was in service for how long? And they only managed to make what, 20,000 of em ?

????

Overview:

The WSP-1A Wasp was the first recon 'Mech to be mass-produced for the Terran military. Since its initial production in 2471, the 'Mech has spread to all parts of Human-occupied space. Old Star League records show that thousands of Wasps were constructed in the four centuries preceding the Succession Wars. Though many of these have worn out or been destroyed, estimates show that more than half this total is still in operation. Further, some Wasp designs are still being constructed in some areas of the Successor States. The large number of Wasps available for use should ensure that it remains among the main light recon 'Mechs of the Successor States for centuries to come.

TRO 3025 rev.

[Typhonis 1]

I`m trying to figure why production of mechs is so low in Battletech.I`m using real world figures of weapons made during WW2 as a benchmark and yet....things just don`t add up.

[fusion]

Think of them as warships (after all they seem to be so powerful), then they add up much better. Still it is a lower number.

[Chris OFarrell]

Its an ABSURDLY low number.

The US alone has produced something like close to 9,000 M1 Varients in its 20-30 year history of service. And thats ONE nation on ONE planet.

[LaCroix]

Well, The reactors have to be buildt, shipped, installed to the frame, then those myomer-bundles and all the tech has to be installed. That should not take so much time.

A Mech's armor consists only of steel, Bor-Nitride and Diamond wires, it doesn't take long to build/install it.

But the anti-KE spells aren't cast in a minute, son!

[Chris OFarrell]

Well, The reactors have to be buildt, shipped, installed to the frame, then those myomer-bundles and all the tech has to be installed. That should not take so much time.

A Mech's armor consists only of steel, Bor-Nitride and Diamond wires, it doesn't take long to build/install it.

But the anti-KE spells aren't cast in a minute, son!

"By the power of Technobabble, I command you to be free of the chains of Physics!"

[PainRack]

I`m trying to figure why production of mechs is so low in Battletech.I`m using real world figures of weapons made during WW2 as a benchmark and yet....things just don`t add up.

Just for comparison, the Germans could re-equip an entire tank batallion in one month.(According to Guderian memoirs) Clan Wolf needs an entire year to do the equivalent.


The problem for the IS is relatively easy to understand. The vagaries of the Succession war and specialisation during the Terran Hegemony and SL era has its effects on mech production. Most parts for the mechs have to be imported from other planets. Even Def Hesp, one of the IS most self-sufficient military factories has to import parts like weapons, armour for various mechs.

Lostech explained why they couldn't centralise them(to a certain extent) but other than that.......................


Of course, one could always look to the good old days of the Terran Hegemony and the Star League, where mechs were produced in the thousands easily, a division is a real division and when they say "Make me a warship", they're talking about producing 500 odd warships in a decade.

[PainRack]

One should also note that the possible hundreds, if not thousands of karnovs, Behemoths, Shreck PPC carriers emerge from one plant on Earth(over an unknown period of time) so in comparison, they're obviously much better able to produce tanks than mechs.

[Chris OFarrell]

Which right then and there points out the absurdity of the Mech centric universe.

If I can have a Division with 3 times as many Behemoths as Assault Mechs, 3 times as many Shrecks as Heavies e.t.c. for the same cost as a Mech Regiment...

Even nerfed as Btech tanks and vehicles are, gime 10 years to rework the AFFC and deploy two dozen new 'FC Grenader Combat Teams' as I am calling them in the LC Half of the Clan Invasion and I promise I'll turn the first few Galaxies to cross the line into so much salvage...

[PainRack]

Which right then and there points out the absurdity of the Mech centric universe.

If I can have a Division with 3 times as many Behemoths as Assault Mechs, 3 times as many Shrecks as Heavies e.t.c. for the same cost as a Mech Regiment...

Even nerfed as Btech tanks and vehicles are, gime 10 years to rework the AFFC and deploy two dozen new 'FC Grenader Combat Teams' as I am calling them in the LC Half of the Clan Invasion and I promise I'll turn the first few Galaxies to cross the line into so much salvage...

The clans plowed a single trinary into an armoured battalion,a mech company and an mechanised infantry regiment before.

[PainRack]

Not to mention entire RCTs, which is already a mech regiment with 3 or more armour regiments, infantry, aerospace assets, as well as supporting militia and planetary defence units which have heavy armour support has similarly been overwhelmed by extremely small Clan forces before.

[Nephtys]

One limitation of offensive operations of course is drop capacity. It doesn't really matter (for attack) if you can field 3 100-ton shrecks per Atlas, you can't lift that to a target.

I suppose this is one reason Mechs are 'prestigious'. They're the per-ton most effective unit in BTverse, by fluff and game mechanics, and so used as the big stick unit on attack.

One also very important factor is that most systems claimed in the IS map are barely habited, with outposts or fueling depots or whatnot there. Most places have minor colonies, and heavy industry across the civilized planets are certainly sub modern-earth levels. Consider maybe a dozen or two 'real major' planets in each successor state, with very obvious key targets (IE, the mechworks at Hesperus II)... and perhaps such ridicously small forces have at least some plausability.

[Chris OFarrell]

Not to mention entire RCTs, which is already a mech regiment with 3 or more armour regiments, infantry, aerospace assets, as well as supporting militia and planetary defence units which have heavy armour support has similarly been overwhelmed by extremely small Clan forces before.

Yes because by act of plot they had to win to say 'OMG, look how 1337 the Clans are as they bash through all of this!'

And most of the rest of the time the Inner Sphere played to the clans advantages, especially their extended range weapons.

But if I have 3 Shreck carriers all firing their 3 PPC's at a single Clan Mech, its fucking dead. Or at the very least, absolutely crippled. With the right defensive positions you can negate the Clans extended weapons ranges advantages and hit them where it hurts even with L1 units.

The Inner Sphere used these exact tactics on Wollcot. They received the Clan Mechs in the right terrain, rendered their sensors useless with basic electronics warfare tactics and chewed them to pieces with minimal losses with good old massed fire tactics.

Seriously in Grave Covenent we see how easy this is, even WITH somewhat flawed tactics.
The Davion Heavy Guards first Battalion stands a mech company on a ridge line in the path of a clan unit, lighting up their sensors. The Smoke Jaguars (a force larger then a Trinary) charge in like the idiots they are, firing long range volleys that do little but grind off some armor (and even that would have been minimised if the FC Mechs had been in good cover on the top of the ridgeline).

The FC commander calls a fire mission and blasts away a third of the mechs with some good ole artillery and damages the rest, then falls back after trading a volley or two behind the ridgeline.

On the reverse side of hte slope, the Mechs take position behind an armored company and together the tanks and mechs turn the rest of the Clanners into scap.

All of this with minimal losses that frankly could have been even less with the right work.

With MY formations having insane numbers of vehicles using good ole massed fire tactics with massive fire support, the Clanners will have to deploy huge forces to engage me which even if I don't WIN against them, I'll chew them up something fierce. And the Clanners simply don't have that many Omnimechs that they can afford to throw Clusters away willy nilly.

[Chris OFarrell]

Not to mention entire RCTs, which is already a mech regiment with 3 or more armour regiments, infantry, aerospace assets, as well as supporting militia and planetary defence units which have heavy armour support has similarly been overwhelmed by extremely small Clan forces before.

Yes. By act of Plot in the invasion to show how 1337 the Clan invasion is.

The funny thing is later its those same RCT's combined arms tactics which are shown to be so frigen deadly against Clan forces, as if they never used such an approach.

[consequences]

One limitation of offensive operations of course is drop capacity. It doesn't really matter (for attack) if you can field 3 100-ton shrecks per Atlas, you can't lift that to a target.

I suppose this is one reason Mechs are 'prestigious'. They're the per-ton most effective unit in BTverse, by fluff and game mechanics, and so used as the big stick unit on attack.

One also very important factor is that most systems claimed in the IS map are barely habited, with outposts or fueling depots or whatnot there. Most places have minor colonies, and heavy industry across the civilized planets are certainly sub modern-earth levels. Consider maybe a dozen or two 'real major' planets in each successor state, with very obvious key targets (IE, the mechworks at Hesperus II)... and perhaps such ridicously small forces have at least some plausability.

The largest stock mech carrier carries 36 mechs(42 if you mod it to completely remove its fighter coverage). The largest tank carrier carries 90 heavy tanks, a battalion of infantry, and a dozen mechs. Neither of these designs remotely approach the maximum number that could theoretically be crammed into a hull, in fact the larger of the two comes in at 18% of the maximum hull size(both theoretical and actually in service), or 30% of the maximum size that can be employed without using up a second dropship slot on a jumpship. Yet another area where no one ever bothers to optimise their designs.

Honestly, the universe almost made more sense back when mechs were irreplaceable lostech, because then there was at least a reason for mech superiority(we can't make platforms like that any more, because we honestly don't know how).

[Coalition]

One limitation of offensive operations of course is drop capacity. It doesn't really matter (for attack) if you can field 3 100-ton shrecks per Atlas, you can't lift that to a target.

I suppose this is one reason Mechs are 'prestigious'. They're the per-ton most effective unit in BTverse, by fluff and game mechanics, and so used as the big stick unit on attack.

One also very important factor is that most systems claimed in the IS map are barely habited, with outposts or fueling depots or whatnot there. Most places have minor colonies, and heavy industry across the civilized planets are certainly sub modern-earth levels. Consider maybe a dozen or two 'real major' planets in each successor state, with very obvious key targets (IE, the mechworks at Hesperus II)... and perhaps such ridicously small forces have at least some plausability.

One fun thing about the population, is when you start multiplying the average Inner Sphere income (from Merc Supplement, ~8,000 -Bills), by the average population in the Inner Sphere (roughly 1-2 billion per planet). Figure 8 trillion in income. 10% in taxes, is 800 billion. 10% in military is 80 billion. 10% of military budget just for new purchases is 8 billion.

Steiner Fafnirs (100 ton mech) cost ~12 million each, and Eisensturms (95 ton fighter) cost 24 million. That one planet could buy 200 of each per year, as routine purchases.

The only real way to match actual military capability is to say that most of the populations are hard-scrabble farmers, barely scratching out a living, and that a few planets in each House's realm are supporting the whole war effort.

The largest stock mech carrier carries 36 mechs(42 if you mod it to completely remove its fighter coverage). The largest tank carrier carries 90 heavy tanks, a battalion of infantry, and a dozen mechs. Neither of these designs remotely approach the maximum number that could theoretically be crammed into a hull, in fact the larger of the two comes in at 18% of the maximum hull size(both theoretical and actually in service), or 30% of the maximum size that can be employed without using up a second dropship slot on a jumpship. Yet another area where no one ever bothers to optimise their designs.

Honestly, the universe almost made more sense back when mechs were irreplaceable lostech, because then there was at least a reason for mech superiority(we can't make platforms like that any more, because we honestly don't know how).

To carry a Mech, you need a 150 ton cubicle, and about 12 tons for the crew (7 tons of life support and quarters/gear for the pilot, and 5 tons for the tech). To carry a heavy tank, you need a 100 ton bay (though it can only hold ~85 tons, due to room needed for spare parts), and 15 tons for qaurters (3 crew, at 5 tons of life support/quarters/gear per).

A Mech requires ~162 tons of capacity, and a vehicle requires 115 tons capacity. If the Mech is 41% more effective (or more) than the vehicle, it makes more sense to carry Mechs.

(Also, they got rid of the 60 kiloton limit for Dropship collars). So if you have a Dropship with 80,000 tons cargo capacity, you can choose to carry 493 Mechs, or 695 vehicles.

[PainRack]

One fun thing about the population, is when you start multiplying the average Inner Sphere income (from Merc Supplement, ~8,000 -Bills), by the average population in the Inner Sphere (roughly 1-2 billion per planet). Figure 8 trillion in income. 10% in taxes, is 800 billion. 10% in military is 80 billion. 10% of military budget just for new purchases is 8 billion.

Which census are you using? cause most planets pop from the atlases are measured in millions to the more core worlds being billions.

Also, isn't the median income 1,500 Cbills a month? That should add up to 18k a year.

And actually, we do know how much "profit" comes in from a planet tax base, using the RPG landhold values. That however supposedly covers a basic security force, meaning infantry with some light armour elements attached.

The only real way to match actual military capability is to say that most of the populations are hard-scrabble farmers, barely scratching out a living, and that a few planets in each House's realm are supporting the whole war effort.

Actually, its because production sucks. During the Succession war, the Valkyrie factory on New Avalon, supposedly one of the most advanced and productive in House Davion space produced 128 mechs a YEAR. Talon, a major facillity guarded and isolated from the rest of known space because of supposedly advanced manufacturing tech on the planet, required 10 dropships to transport a year worth of production off planet during the FedCom Civil War. Now, that may not be the total production worth, because mechs would had been allocated to the defending mech regiment to replace losses, not to mention these figures may represent the only spare dropship/jumpship capacity, but STILL......... Assuming 10 overlords, that's only 10 mech battalions a year. Of course, we can further assume that cargo space stocks mechs, but that doesn't drive up production to the level required to defend hundreds of planets with centralised mech forces.

The largest stock mech carrier carries 36 mechs(42 if you mod it to completely remove its fighter coverage). The largest tank carrier carries 90 heavy tanks, a battalion of infantry, and a dozen mechs. Neither of these designs remotely approach the maximum number that could theoretically be crammed into a hull, in fact the larger of the two comes in at 18% of the maximum hull size(both theoretical and actually in service), or 30% of the maximum size that can be employed without using up a second dropship slot on a jumpship. Yet another area where no one ever bothers to optimise their designs.

The bays aren't the only space where mechs can be stored. Cargo space takes up most of the space on the dropship it seems.

[Coalition]

Which census are you using? cause most planets pop from the atlases are measured in millions to the more core worlds being billions.

Check out the recent books for House Steiner and Marik. Those establish several worlds averaging over a billion. Not to mention the lifepath for Farmer states that you are one of trillions. There are 2000 worlds in the Inner Sphere, and that averages out at 1 billion per.

In the Star League sourcebook, it said the First Lord ruled over trillions.

The canon MW:Dark Age web site has overall House populations, and you can use that to get over a billion per planet, average.
Draconis Combine: 3 billion per
Federated Suns: 3 billion per
Jade Falcon territory: 3.3 billion per
Capellan Confederation: 1.375 billion per
Rasalhague Dominion: 3.9 billion per

Billions are everywhere in Battletech. The only thing that makes sense (to me) is that most of the population of a government simply does not contribute effectively to the government.

Also, isn't the median income 1,500 Cbills a month? That should add up to 18k a year.

Yup, I was underestimating. Makes the planet far more dangerous if the average income is higher than what I mentioned, right?

And actually, we do know how much "profit" comes in from a planet tax base, using the RPG landhold values. That however supposedly covers a basic security force, meaning infantry with some light armour elements attached.

True, I was assuming the planet had a similar structure as a current government. Still, If you read the descriptions fo the governments, they are mostly feudal trappings, with a near modern government underneath. Also, most of those landholdings can vary in size (ranging from a Duke controlling several dozen near useless mining planets, to a Duke controlling a few hundred square kilometers of the richest farmland around).

Actually, its because production sucks. During the Succession war, the Valkyrie factory on New Avalon, supposedly one of the most advanced and productive in House Davion space produced 128 mechs a YEAR. Talon, a major facillity guarded and isolated from the rest of known space because of supposedly advanced manufacturing tech on the planet, required 10 dropships to transport a year worth of production off planet during the FedCom Civil War. Now, that may not be the total production worth, because mechs would had been allocated to the defending mech regiment to replace losses, not to mention these figures may represent the only spare dropship/jumpship capacity, but STILL......... Assuming 10 overlords, that's only 10 mech battalions a year. Of course, we can further assume that cargo space stocks mechs, but that doesn't drive up production to the level required to defend hundreds of planets with centralised mech forces.

The bays aren't the only space where mechs can be stored. Cargo space takes up most of the space on the dropship it seems.

Vehicles and Mechs stored in bays are not in combat ready modes. Also, I assumed you just allocated tonnage generally. Since Mechs are used in combat, that means they are 41% more effective than an equivalent mass of vehicles (otherwise you would see vehicles being used).

Next, the production obviously sucks. If I had a similar budget as what I proposed previously (enough to buy 200 Assault Mech and Assault fighters per year), I would be using that money to get new factories built. Not to mention, there are larger Dropships than Overlords (Overlord = 9,700 ton Dropship, carries 36 Mechs in combat ready mode. Mule = 11,200 cargo carrier, can handle over 81 Mechs as cargo; Mammoth Dropship can handle over 377 Mechs as cargo).

The only thing that makes any sort of sense in Battletech is that most of the people are making far less than the 'average' income (or that the average only applies to a few high-tech planets), and the remaining planets are little more than subsistence farms/mining towns. They can provide infantry, but not much more.

[Typhonis 1]

Why go with PPC carriers? the IS has tanks that are someone like what we field today...Rommel/Patton and the Po designs. Just outfit them with Ultra AC 10s and wallah. Or worse Ultra AC 20s.

[Typhonis 1]

And heaven help the clans if some joker outfits a Savannah Master battalion with new tech....

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm not sure if I added this quote to the archive before:

"The tin sheets sheathing the building had roughly half the thickness of a ferro-fibrous armor plate, but only a thousandth of its energy dissipating ability."
Bred for War, PP 303

[PainRack]

Check out the recent books for House Steiner and Marik. Those establish several worlds averaging over a billion. Not to mention the lifepath for Farmer states that you are one of trillions. There are 2000 worlds in the Inner Sphere, and that averages out at 1 billion per.

Ah.... so you're using an average figure. TY.

True, I was assuming the planet had a similar structure as a current government. Still, If you read the descriptions fo the governments, they are mostly feudal trappings, with a near modern government underneath. Also, most of those landholdings can vary in size (ranging from a Duke controlling several dozen near useless mining planets, to a Duke controlling a few hundred square kilometers of the richest farmland around).

However, considering the diffuse power of the nobility, its more likely that taxes and income is concentrated at the lower levels. The landholdings may average in size, but the profits are stated to be "average", not reflecting very rich or very poor landholds.

More importantly, it does give us a significant telling of how much taxes the average citizen would have to pay. After all, the Duke is not the only one collecting taxes on his hold, there's the barons, viscounts, and he still has to pay tithes to his superior and then the centralised government.

A Duke is also mentioned to be fully capable of maintaining a mech battalion on call, so these are additional forces(the so call house guards) that are not factored into the "normal" mech forces.

As I said before, thanks to "hidden" sources of private armies, its potentially much easier to rationalise the IS low numbers. After all, when dukes can hold their own private war against each other over the Draconis border, risking retialiation by the respective warlords, dukes, and ultimately, centralised armies of both states, that's telling of their independence and finanicial capabilities.

The only thing that makes any sort of sense in Battletech is that most of the people are making far less than the 'average' income (or that the average only applies to a few high-tech planets), and the remaining planets are little more than subsistence farms/mining towns. They can provide infantry, but not much more.

Unfortunately, we don't really see that. C-bills offer a good comparison of prices adjusted for inflation, and we don't see that occuring too much. Similarly, many "average" planets are supposedly on par with Earth technologically, which would suggest similar infrastructure in their capital city at least.

[PainRack]

Corean Enterprises initially balked at the idea of investing any cash into the Locust program until they received assurances from the Word of Blake that the Militia would purchase the first year's limited production run

True to their word, Blakist officials from the Office of Procurement arrived at the completion of the first production run for the LCT-5M. The new 'Mechs were shipped in Level II size to each Blakist Division and dispersed, giving each Level III access to at least one new LCT-5M.

Limited production run of 72 mechs in a year..... Which if we follows old btech conventions, are easier to produce and in considerably larger quantitites than heavier mechs.

One should note also that this production run is not significantly larger than 3rd succession war era production rate. The Valkyrie factory on New Avalon produces 138 battlemechs a year from House Davion sourcebook.

Assuming full production equals a ten fold jump in production, that's only 720 mechs a year. Hardly comparable to "normal" standards.

[PainRack]

A frustrated General Mitchell staked his large personal fortune on further research and then full production, which began in mid-2650..............

In the Kanga's first 100 years, 27,000 of these useful vehicles have been built at Mitchell Vehicles.

An average of 270 vehicles produced a year. Either the SL has factories out the wazoo to produce tanks, or this represent a limited production of an expensive product. After all, production was kickstarted by a single man and the tank is stated to be extremely expensive because of the jump thrusters.

The AL2200 Computer's inertial guidance and gyro system solves the balancing problems inherent in hover/jump maneuvers.

The AL2200 Computer is part of the sophisticated so-called Artificial Intelligence series developed by Nirasaki Computers Collective on Caph. It automatically handles all routine functions, including gyro-stability during jumps and hover maneuver. The AL2200 can operate the vehicle independently on a preprogrammed mission.

TR 2750

Unfortunately, it was astonishingly difficult to reproduce the so-called Artificial Intelligence system of the AL2200 used by the Star League-era Kanga to maintain control, balance, and targeting of the vehicle through its jumps. The task grew even more difficult when meshing the same system with the multi-role control systems required for OmniVehicles like the Epona.

TR 3062, Hephaestus Scout Tank Prime

The state of computer AI in the Star League and a comparison with Clan tech.