Palpatine vs. the God Emperor of Mankind (WH40K)

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Who wins?

Palpatine
15
16%
GEOM
81
84%
 
Total votes: 96

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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

MRDOD wrote:
18-Till-I-Die wrote:
And what, pray, does that mean? I spelled it wrong or something?

What did i say something insulting, am i missing a joke, what?
There's no R in WAAAAAGH.
Well then my mistake, though he could have simply said that instead of being pissy about it.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

DEATH wrote:
What are you attempting to argue here?
That you should just destroy the room rather than wander into a trap, throw a grenade in (For example), or keep your guard up.
Oh, dear what naivete. How do you assume that he knows there is a trap? That's what makes it a "trap" you see.
No, as NL has pointed out, it was a power. And in any case, even if you are correct quanntification would still be needed here, since blur like movement is an advantage.
True (As I said), but how do we quantify "Really fast, I can't see them move"?
Almost impossible without something that can be translated into numbers, or compared with things that can be translated into numbers via the laws of limits.
or did I unequivocally state that Palpatine would win, merely that the difference is not automatically as high as you seem to assume.
Then how big is it? When even Palaptine's force storms are nothing compared to the Emperor's wrath Palaptine really does not have a chance in 100 fights.
He has no chance against the Emperor of Man. He does not need to be anything like the Emperor to have a fair shot at defeating a Bloodthirster, though.
When has Palpatine used a forcestorm fast enough against his immediate opponent - except when he has. SNORE! There was no rebel fleet in the Bloodthirster scenario that needed toasting.

If the force storm can toast SW fleets, it can toast a Bloodthirster. End of issue. The only question is who gets the first shot in.
When did he do it in a fight with opponents near him, he didn't use it against Luke/Leia, and it required concentration- hardly a rapid fire attack (Same reason a ritual type spell in D&D will get you killed if you try it while being threatened by multiple melee fighters- you don't have the breathing room for it, even if you can destroy a castle [for example] or lift a mountain top given time and opportunity).
The force storm neccesary to kill a Bloodthirster is - in terms of orders of magnitude - quite a bit closer to that needed against people than that needed against SW fleets, given that a Bloodthirster can be taken out by anti tank weapons. Presumably, the time needed to prepare would be similarly proportional.

Still, assuming that this were not so, we might be in a picle. If only Palpatine could be aware of the arrival of his opponent in advance so he could prepare. Some sort of "Precog", if you will.
And now having watched the flic, I can suggest that the upper limit involves his inability to defeat an army of several thousand minions of evil without help from several thousand talking animals and four British kids from the 1940s.
Technically it's roaring/singin the world of Narnia [not just Narnia] into existence without any trouble, and while being limited by his Father the Emperor over the sea.
He's basically Illuvatar/Jesus light (He all but states that he is Jesus in our world- "I have many guises").

The White witch had eaten from a tree that made her part of creation as well as granting power, wishes and eternal youth), which was why Aslan couldn't destroy her until later on.
You know, the reason I put that in tiny quotes is because it was off topic and contained spoilers.

Anyway, what NL said.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

The force storm neccesary to kill a Bloodthirster is - in terms of orders of magnitude - quite a bit closer to that needed against people than that needed against SW fleets, given that a Bloodthirster can be taken out by anti tank weapons. Presumably, the time needed to prepare would be similarly proportional.
When has Palpatine showed not just the ability to dial down a force storm (He has shown that) but to make it far faster when it would need less energy?
You also didn't address the point of him not using it in a straight up hth fight with a comparable opponent, it's not really effective as a combat power, simple as that.

If Palpatine and the Thirster started on opposite continents and the Thirster had no ranged psychic ability then Palpatine would do it, but if the Thirster was anywhere near melee/hitting range then Palpatine would not have a chance.
Also, spoilers on a 60-70 year old series of books is a bit iffy, although I apologize for not thinking of it from your view.
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Post by NecronLord »

Lord Zentei wrote:The force storm neccesary to kill a Bloodthirster is - in terms of orders of magnitude - quite a bit closer to that needed against people than that needed against SW fleets, given that a Bloodthirster can be taken out by anti tank weapons. Presumably, the time needed to prepare would be similarly proportional.
While I don't know enough to say how effective force storms would be against a bloodthirster, I will state that mundane weapons do not work that well on demons at all except in huge quantities. This is why things like bloodletters actually manage to get into close combat.

Of course, force lightning is supposed to do some funky soul-draining mojo...
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Of course, force lightning is supposed to do some funky soul-draining mojo...
Are'nt you talking about pure hatred force lightning :? , never heard of special effects for a Force storm.
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Post by Setzer »

Energy powered by pure hatred doesn't seem like it would be very effective against Khornate daemons.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Setzer wrote:Energy powered by pure hatred doesn't seem like it would be very effective against Khornate daemons.
Force lightning is pure hatred, so it's effectiveness against a being made of raw anger and bloodlust who's "maker" is empowered by hatred
(Or is that Nurgle? I think that Khorne being in "charge" of all negative angry and war related emotions would find hate part of his "power base").

As far as I know, Force storms are the "pure" energy of the darkside, meaning raw emotions and power, but not neccesarily hate/rage (Although if Palpatine uses his rage as a boost [Such as Luke did in EP6] rather than just his hatred [for his souped up lightning] it might be far less effective being so similair to the warp and emotions that created Khorne ]and the Thirster]).

If I'm wrong about the Force storms and the hatred composition of the UNLIMITEd POWER!!! of Palpatine's Force storms then please tell me before I start digging my hole any further :?
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Post by NecronLord »

DEATH wrote:Are'nt you talking about pure hatred force lightning :? , never heard of special effects for a Force storm.
They're intended to be scaling up of the same power. Force lightning does physical damage too remember (Smoke coming off Anakin springs to mind.)

And yes, let's not forget that Khrone has a long history of intervening with his immense power to stop magicians destroying his demons.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

They're intended to be scaling up of the same power.
Really? Never heard of that, the rpg (Dark empire sourcebook) has them as seperate powers, and not based of each other...
Does WEG contradict this?
Force lightning does physical damage too remember (Smoke coming off Anakin springs to mind.)
Yup, but it's main effects seem to be a "drain life"/negative energy effect, it does raw damage (Raw electrical damage at least, that's the reason Vader couldn't use it due to the risk of it frying his suit).

Considering how low/weak the physical component apparently is (Palaptine using it to push Windu out of the Window, while vs Yoda he used TK according to the WOTC RPG site), I'd say that if the main effect is just a life draining/hate effect then the most likely reaction of a Bloodthirster would be to lick it's jaws and start sucking it in (causing an effect similiar to what happened in EP3 when Windu was deflecting/redirecting the lightning).
This is speculation though, and if there has been a more impressive showing of Force lightning in terms of raw damage (I know about the room full of Stormtroopers in Empire #4), that is not based on the drain life/hatred/Dark side effect aspect please tell me.
And yes, let's not forget that Khrone has a long history of intervening with his immense power to stop magicians destroying his demons.
Eh, where? (Out of curiosity, not that I doubt you).
He didn't do anything when 13 greater deoms bounced of the shield of lord Kroak (Fanatsy) unless I am very much mistaken.
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Post by Lancer »

DEATH wrote:And yes, let's not forget that Khrone has a long history of intervening with his immense power to stop magicians destroying his demons.
Eh, where? (Out of curiosity, not that I doubt you).
He didn't do anything when 13 greater deoms bounced of the shield of lord Kroak (Fanatsy) unless I am very much mistaken.[/quote]

40k is a different continuity from Fantasy. In 40k, the Chaos gods' influence extends over regions of the galaxy. In fantasy, the Chaos gods span regions of a planet.
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Post by NecronLord »

DEATH wrote:Really? Never heard of that, the rpg (Dark empire sourcebook) has them as seperate powers, and not based of each other...
I'm talking about obvious authorial intent. The rancid crap pile that is the DESB is something I'm not very aware of.
Does WEG contradict this?

Yup, but it's main effects seem to be a "drain life"/negative energy effect, it does raw damage (Raw electrical damage at least, that's the reason Vader couldn't use it due to the risk of it frying his suit).

Considering how low/weak the physical component apparently is (Palaptine using it to push Windu out of the Window, while vs Yoda he used TK according to the WOTC RPG site), I'd say that if the main effect is just a life draining/hate effect then the most likely reaction of a Bloodthirster would be to lick it's jaws and start sucking it in (causing an effect similiar to what happened in EP3 when Windu was deflecting/redirecting the lightning).
This is speculation though, and if there has been a more impressive showing of Force lightning in terms of raw damage (I know about the room full of Stormtroopers in Empire #4), that is not based on the drain life/hatred/Dark side effect aspect please tell me.
That's just a mindbogglingly shakey argument.
Eh, where? (Out of curiosity, not that I doubt you).
He didn't do anything when 13 greater deoms bounced of the shield of lord Kroak (Fanatsy) unless I am very much mistaken.
Lord Kroak was one of the most senior servants of the Old Ones. He destroyed demons in the warp itself. The guy was godlike. Normal magicians tend to run into problems from the protections the marks and items of Khorne grant. This is also why there are no Khronate socreres. Khorne views magic as cheating, and takes action against it.
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Post by NecronLord »

Matt Huang wrote:40k is a different continuity from Fantasy. In 40k, the Chaos gods' influence extends over regions of the galaxy. In fantasy, the Chaos gods span regions of a planet.
Not actually true. There are Inferno stories that canonically show that Fantasy is at the very least a galaxy scale universe, with the Chaos Gods having access to it. Their full might cannot be brought to bear on that world, and they have multitudinous other concerns.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Not actually true. There are Inferno stories that canonically show that Fantasy is at the very least a galaxy scale universe, with the Chaos Gods having access to it.
There is also the fact that some books had 40k wepaonry being available as gifts from the Chaos gods.
GW has denied the connection, although the correlation is immense from the Slaan/old ones to, well everything else (Sigmar could even be a pathetic primarch).
He destroyed demons in the warp itself.
What type? Daeomonetes or greater planet batting demons?
Lord Kroak was one of the most senior servants of the Old Ones
He's dead? Also, didn't first generation S'laan (Of which he is one) help the Great old ones re-arrange the planet? :?:
That's just a mindbogglingly shakey argument.
True, it kinda ran away from my claim that "force lightning is more of a "life draining" effect than raw physical damage.
I conceed it, since it really ran away (Although my "it's a "funky" life draining effect through the DS rather than raw DET" claim still stands for now).
I'm talking about obvious authorial intent
Since when could Lightning teleport someone?
the Force storms were the same for destruction and teleportation- unleashing the raw power of the DS into the physical world for various effects.
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Post by Lost Soal »

DEATH wrote:
Not actually true. There are Inferno stories that canonically show that Fantasy is at the very least a galaxy scale universe, with the Chaos Gods having access to it.
There is also the fact that some books had 40k wepaonry being available as gifts from the Chaos gods.
GW has denied the connection, although the correlation is immense from the Slaan/old ones to, well everything else (Sigmar could even be a pathetic primarch).
GW couldn't have denied the connection, since they wrote it into Codex Necrons that the planet exists.
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Post by NecronLord »

DEATH wrote:What type? Daeomonetes or greater planet batting demons?
Greater Demons. IIRC he destroyed hundreds of thousands of lesser demons.
He's dead?
Err. Yes. That's why he's mummified.
Also, didn't first generation S'laan (Of which he is one) help the Great old ones re-arrange the planet? :?:
Yes. That is meaningless though. And it's 'Slaan' no apostrophe.
Since when could Lightning teleport someone?
Since incredibly ignorant people were allowed to write Dark Empire? From what I've read, it yanked Luke's X-Wing around, not teleported. Futher, do not ever say that Force Lightning is just Lighting again. :P
the Force storms were the same for destruction and teleportation- unleashing the raw power of the DS into the physical world for various effects.
Do they look the same? Because otherwise, they're probably not the same power at all.
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Post by Azazal »

Lost Soal wrote:
DEATH wrote:
Not actually true. There are Inferno stories that canonically show that Fantasy is at the very least a galaxy scale universe, with the Chaos Gods having access to it.
There is also the fact that some books had 40k wepaonry being available as gifts from the Chaos gods.
GW has denied the connection, although the correlation is immense from the Slaan/old ones to, well everything else (Sigmar could even be a pathetic primarch).
GW couldn't have denied the connection, since they wrote it into Codex Necrons that the planet exists.
Or better yet, old school Chaos - Slave to Darkness outright states that the WHF world is a rouge planet in the eye of terror and exist in the current time line of 40K
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Greater Demons. IIRC he destroyed hundreds of thousands of lesser demons.
He destroyed multiple greater demons inside the WArp :shock: :shock: ....
I think we have the new "culture class" opponent for the fantasy forum :P.
Or better yet, old school Chaos - Slave to Darkness outright states that the WHF world is a rouge planet in the eye of terror and exist in the current time line of 40K
I think that thats what I read was denied by GW.
Do they look the same? Because otherwise, they're probably not the same power at all.
Same as what? as lightning? apart from the white colour, not that much, although DE art sucks balls.
Err. Yes. That's why he's mummified.
Thought he was still hanging around like a froggy Budha using his transported corpse as a focus.
A warty GeoM in other words :P .
Yes. That is meaningless though. And it's 'Slaan' no apostrophe.
Ok, confused with Berserk :oops: .
Is it canon that the Great old ones are the superior ancestors of the Slaan or that the slaan are/were merely their servants?
From what I've read, it yanked Luke's X-Wing around, not teleported
It bought Luke to Byss from across the galaxy.
Futher, do not ever say that Force Lightning is just Lighting again. Razz
Sorry, I meant to say raw concentrated evil, don't know where my spelling was :wink: .

GW couldn't have denied the connection, since they wrote it into Codex Necrons that the planet exists.
Re-he-he-eally? Where, that sounds interesting? (You can just give me a page, I can check the codex on my own)
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Post by NecronLord »

DEATH wrote: He destroyed multiple greater demons inside the WArp :shock: :shock: ....
I think we have the new "culture class" opponent for the fantasy forum :P.
Not really. It just means he could resist the warp's weirdness.
Same as what? as lightning? apart from the white colour, not that much, although DE art sucks balls.
Do all instances of 'Force Storm' look the same, or could it be a classification of major force event?
Is it canon that the Great old ones are the superior ancestors of the Slaan or that the slaan are/were merely their servants?
Old Ones. Great is lovecraft ya puddin. And no, they used to be called the "Ancient Slaan" in the 40K background, but are truly called the Old Ones. The Slaan resemble them most of all their servants in form, wisdom and power, but did not evolve from them. At a guess, the Slaan were kind of like trained apes would be to us.
It bought Luke to Byss from across the galaxy.
That's not teleportation unless he didn't pass through the intervening space.
Re-he-he-eally? Where, that sounds interesting? (You can just give me a page, I can check the codex on my own)
They didn't, they wrote the Old Ones back into the 40k history, and wrote that perhaps some still existed. Xenology says that there was probably one Old One still going around half a million years ago. She may yet live.
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Post by Azazal »

DEATH wrote:
Or better yet, old school Chaos - Slave to Darkness outright states that the WHF world is a rouge planet in the eye of terror and exist in the current time line of 40K
I think that thats what I read was denied by GW.
Not going to argue it, but do you know off the top of your head where GW said that? I love it when they flip flop on there background info, uggggggg :roll:
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Not really. It just means he could resist the warp's weirdness.
Yes it does, resisting the insanity of the warp is the lesser feat.
The greater feat is beating greater deomons in their home ground when they can play ping pong with planets.
Do all instances of 'Force Storm' look the same, or could it be a classification of major force event?
The effect is similiar, if not 100% identical, but the appearance resembling a "white storm" or "funnel"/whirlpool is relatively consistant, the "fx" is roughly the same- no major differences.
Old Ones. Great is lovecraft ya puddin.
And the outer gods :P , but thanks for the correction.
The Slaan resemble them most of all their servants in form, wisdom and power, but did not evolve from them
Thanks, that explains the Slaan hunters with lasguns problem.
That's not teleportation unless he didn't pass through the intervening space.
Then what is it? it sounds like Teleportation rather than very fast transport, it bought him from here to there incredibly quickly.
That's not teleportation unless he didn't pass through the intervening space.
Odd, I thought that after the invention of the WArp and "fall" of the C'tan the Old ones were left to start dealing with Chaos (In the background to avoid any sign of hope in the grim and apocalyptic 40k verse :P ).
What happened to the very old fluff about them waiting in the wings?
Or is the theory that they made the Nid's more popular nowadays?[and ended up losing control or in trouble)
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Post by NecronLord »

Err, no, the C'tan never fell. The Old Ones tried desperately to manipulate enough races into living weapons to mount an effective counter-attack, but such energy could not be drawn from the warp without causing the warp to become a mess. The Old Ones civilisation collapsed, and the C'tan decided they could not halt the problem before all their cattle were infested by the warp monsters, and so went into stasis to wait for new species to emerge that they could make their playthings. Mephet'ran says it is a great surprise to him, for example, that the Krork survived from that time.
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Post by Kuja »

Azazal wrote:
DEATH wrote:
Or better yet, old school Chaos - Slave to Darkness outright states that the WHF world is a rouge planet in the eye of terror and exist in the current time line of 40K
I think that thats what I read was denied by GW.
Not going to argue it, but do you know off the top of your head where GW said that? I love it when they flip flop on there background info, uggggggg :roll:
I'm pretty sure they retconned it out around the time they released 4th Edition.
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Post by NecronLord »

Kuja wrote:I'm pretty sure they retconned it out around the time they released 4th Edition.
It's not that that material was removed, it's that they stopped officially recognizing the link, because it pissed off Fantasy's fans.
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Post by Kuja »

NecronLord wrote:
Kuja wrote:I'm pretty sure they retconned it out around the time they released 4th Edition.
It's not that that material was removed, it's that they stopped officially recognizing the link, because it pissed off Fantasy's fans.
Right, right, that's what I meant.
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Post by Murazor »

NecronLord wrote:Do all instances of 'Force Storm' look the same, or could it be a classification of major force event?
Someone (probably Death himself) posted a short time ago several pics of Force Storms in Spacebattles that show a consistent appearance. It looks like a serpentine grayish "cylinder" with a storm-like appearance and a massive illuminated "maw" (it is probably smaller than the Eclipse, but more than big enough to swallow whole a Nebulon B). The maw generates some pretty strong suction that in one instance lifts a complete army from the surface of a planet.
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