Avatar review thread

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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

What if both of them are done by a professional crew? But what if the professional crew of both movies are composed of different individuals who inject all sorts of different things into their works, even if they are similar?
ray wrote:Yes, but in the end, the storyline just bores me. Sure, I'm still entertained by the big battle at the end, but for the rest of the movie, I couldn't feel a thing. I will not hate a movie because the storyline is similar, but movies with a storyline that I have read/seen before simply makes me feel indifferent towards it.
So you focus more on the storyline than on the acting/directing/whatevering? Okay. I guess you can say that, if you tend to emphasize the storyline over other factors. Hey, people's tastes vary and all that.

PS: I first thought Transformers 2 was hot shit. Then, eh, looking back at it... it was terrible.
Formless wrote:Good point. *goes and watches Dances with Wolves*

I haven't seen Avatar myself, but from what I have heard makes me think that its not worth it. Maybe its a good movie, but if I can rent another movie which is itself a classic that has the same story and sells the same message but stronger (by that I mean Avatar is a metaphor for colonialism, whereas Dances with Wolves features the actual goddamn Native Americans said colonialism fucked over), then the rental classic is going to be my first choice. Because I'm a cheap kind of guy.
Eh, suit yourself. I'd personally say that Avatar is worth it, but that's just me.
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by adam_grif »

PS: I first thought Transformers 2 was hot shit. Then, eh, looking back at it... it was terrible.
Oh wow. Even back with the first Transformers, I left the theater unimpressed and told my friends that I didn't like it, at all. They were all YOU'RE CRAZY IT WAS FANTASTIC!

Later on when I found out that most of the critics panned it, I was so relieved. It was like the world had gone crazy around me until I found that out.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

ray245 wrote:Yes, but that is why I draw the distinction between a professional and a unprofessional production crew...
But in the case of Avatar, previous movies that has a storyline similar to it is also directed and acted out by a professional crew.
What Shroomy said.

When it comes to works of art, the role of the producer(s) is much more complicated than just "if they're competent it's good, if they're not it's bad." It's not a binary solution set: two different good actors may portray the same basic character type in different good ways, for example. The same goes for scenery and special effects, background (the difference between setting a story on a distant planet and setting it in the Amazon rainforest), the details of camera angles, soundtracks, and cuts... you name it.

I accept that you feel that all this stuff is relatively minor compared to the strength of the plot, and I don't want to be too ferocious about that because sometimes I feel the same way. But what I'd like to suggest is that you can get a lot more out of a movie when you pay attention to the details. The details are what the production crew actually has to work at. The plot is more or less fixed before they even start filming; it's the rest of it that makes the movie industry an industry, because there's a huge amount of technical knowledge and experience that goes into making things work.
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

The plot is a framework. What breathes life into any form of art is the effort and the individuality of the artist himself. Van Gough and Picasso can both paint a picture of a naked woman, or a piece of fruit, but because of they are not the same people then the resulting paintings will not be the same paintings as well, and will have their own different merits. Clint Eastwood and Arnold Schwarzenegger can both shoot bad guys dead, but because one of them is a gravelly-voiced gaunt badass cowboy and the other one is a robot Austrian bodybuilder from the future, the resulting dead casualties will also not be the same as well and will have their own different merits. To say that just because some vague plot storyline framework is "the same" and thus a movie/work is no different from any and all others with similar plot storyline frameworks as it, is a bit of a disservice to the Arnolds and the Clints and the Picassos and the Van Goughs who've worked on it and injected into each works bits of their unique artistic individual whatevers.

It's not just the storyline that makes a movie worthwhile. It's also the acting, casting, directing, camera and sounds and light and magic that also makes the movie worth watching. Moreover, it is the competent (or talented!) acting and casting and directing and camera and sounds and light and magic that makes the story itself worthwhile!

At least, that is how I see it. When people go on about "lol tropes!" "lol subversions!" or "lol this is a tired genre convention because TVTropes shows so many examples of it!" and "lol this cliche has grown old and tired", and so on and so forth, in their faux artsy-fartsy "clever" bullshit genre-saviness they've forgotten what makes any given work worth anyone's time.

Just because the song has the same lyrics, does it mean that there's no difference at all if Pavarotti sang the same song that Brittney Spears once sang, or if the rendition was done by your favorite rock band? Same difference.
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by ray245 »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:What if both of them are done by a professional crew? But what if the professional crew of both movies are composed of different individuals who inject all sorts of different things into their works, even if they are similar?
Then the one which I did not watch first is likely to disappoint me.
So you focus more on the storyline than on the acting/directing/whatevering? Okay. I guess you can say that, if you tend to emphasize the storyline over other factors. Hey, people's tastes vary and all that.
I tried to distinguish the difference between an excellent production crew and an average crew, but the process make it hard for me to enjoy the movie.

For one, I couldn't what's the big deal about getting a good sound system.
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

ray245 wrote:I tried to distinguish the difference between an excellent production crew and an average crew, but the process make it hard for me to enjoy the movie.

For one, I couldn't what's the big deal about getting a good sound system.
The quality of the sound system isn't a big deal. What's a big deal is, for example, the choice of music. Again, think about Star Wars. Try watching it while listening closely to the music. I assume you've seen it enough times that it's not hard to follow the plot or the dialogue, so you should have some attention to spare for that.

Listen to what kind of music is played at what moments, what emotions it inspires in the listener. John Williams worked very hard on that soundtrack, and it contributed to the success of the movie in a big way. Good music (like the stuff in Star Wars acts as a subliminal cue to the viewer of how they should feel about certain scenes. Bad music hurts that and takes away from the movie.

For example, the "Imperial March" conveys that sense of the Empire in general or Vader in particular as a big, dangerous, military machine that is quite prepared to stomp all over you. It's exactly the kind of music you'd expect to hear watching troops march past a reviewing stand in a totalitarian dictatorship, for instance. When you hear it played, while Imperial troops are assembled or star destroyers are cruising through space, it adds to the feeling that these guys are dangerous, that they are organized (it's a "big" orchestral theme), and so on.

Likewise, we have "Duel of the Fates", from the prequel trilogy, which played during the duel between Darth Maul, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace under the royal palace in Naboo.

Now, try watching a scene from Star Wars where one of those songs is being played in the background... but imagine the music from the Mos Eisley Cantina being played instead of those two tracks. It would be ridiculous; the out of place music would make what you saw on the screen look like a comedy. Even if nothing else changed, replacing Darth Vader's theme song with something like "Cantina Band" would make the character utterly absurd and foolish. You could completely warp one of the pivotal characters of the movie with that song, without touching the plot or the script.
_________

A lot of this stuff only becomes clear if you're specifically looking for it, or if you're watching the movie a second time, of course. But it's out there, and it has a lot to do with the difference between good and bad movies. Making a fetish out of the plot at the expense of the art that goes into creating a movie is a mistake, because it's much easier to generate good plots than it is to make them into good movies.
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Re: Avatar review thread

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adam_grif wrote:
PS: I first thought Transformers 2 was hot shit. Then, eh, looking back at it... it was terrible.
Oh wow. Even back with the first Transformers, I left the theater unimpressed and told my friends that I didn't like it, at all. They were all YOU'RE CRAZY IT WAS FANTASTIC!

Later on when I found out that most of the critics panned it, I was so relieved. It was like the world had gone crazy around me until I found that out.
Roger Ebert actually said he liked it but felt a bit let-down by the confused editing of the ending battle. He actually said he was prepared to give it four stars until the muddled final battle knocked it down a peg. But you're obviously on one of those "my personal tastes represent some kind of absolute standard" kicks. I do like the way you check your opinions against the erudite consensus and then feel better when you've confirmed that you're still part of the herd.
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by adam_grif »

I do like the way you check your opinions against the erudite consensus and then feel better when you've confirmed that you're still part of the herd.
Hardly. "The herd" being the average joe who went to see the movie apparently loved it to bits. I know very few people who didn't enjoy the movie quite a bit. But that's not exactly strange, there are maybe two people I know who tell me that they didn't like a film they saw with anything approaching regularity, most of them just say that movies were "great" or "ok", never "bad".

It's nice when critical consensus is in line with my opinion, but it isn't quite frequently, and my intentions aren't to shape my tastes to a point where I mindlessly agree with the hive mind. I didn't like District nine as much as the critics apparently did, and they panned Watchmen pretty hard all round, which is one of my favorites.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Avatar review thread

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adam_grif wrote:
I do like the way you check your opinions against the erudite consensus and then feel better when you've confirmed that you're still part of the herd.
Hardly. "The herd" being the average joe who went to see the movie apparently loved it to bits.
Oh right, I forgot that the erudite set cannot possibly be considered a "herd", even though they exhibit all of the same herd behaviour.
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"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by adam_grif »

What exactly is your point here? That I'm stupid because I think it's nice when a group of professionals or even just people as a whole agree with me?
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Avatar review thread

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adam_grif wrote:What exactly is your point here? That I'm stupid because I think it's nice when a group of professionals or even just people as a whole agree with me?
No, you're a herd follower because you were "relieved" when you discovered that many critics agreed with you. You didn't just say it was "nice"; you said you were actually "relieved", ie- you were confused and afraid and then your fears were allayed when you found that your herd was moving in your direction.

And then you quite laughably assumed that when I said "herd", I must surely be referring to people with lowbrow tastes, because of course the word "herd" couldn't possibly be used to refer to the highbrow set, right?

And what's this about "people as a whole" agreeing with you? The first Transformers movie made shitloads of money and was well-received by the general public.
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"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

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Re: Avatar review thread

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No, you're a herd follower because you were "relieved" when you discovered that many critics agreed with you. You didn't just say it was "nice"; you said you were actually "relieved", ie- you were confused and afraid and then your fears were allayed when you found that your herd was moving in your direction.
To be a "herd follower", I'd have to be actively basing my views on things to conform to "the herd". This is sort of the opposite of what happened, since I hated transformers but didn't discover until later that lots of critics did too. The relief comes from knowing that I'm not the only person who thought that, in the same way you might feel good when you meet somebody who shares your taste in music.

It can't be considered herd behavior because there's nothing about my behavior that's changing to conform to a herd. My opinions were the same regardless of whether or not people agreed with them.

Considering me to be a "herd follower" solely because knowledge of incidental social conformity illicits some kind of emotional response from me would be as baseless and foolish as considering me to be a heroin junky solely because shooting me up would heroin would make me feel good.
And then you quite laughably assumed that when I said "herd", I must surely be referring to people with lowbrow tastes, because of course the word "herd" couldn't possibly be used to refer to the highbrow set, right?
No, I thought that you were talking about majorities. I.e. "the herd" meaning the sum collective of people. The majority of people liked the movie, it's only the narrow subset of the population called "film critics" who didn't. If all you mean when you say "herd" is "any group of people", then fine.
And what's this about "people as a whole" agreeing with you? The first Transformers movie made shitloads of money and was well-received by the general public.
I never implied that the majority of people hated it. If one feels good because a small subset of people agrees with them, then it stands to reason that the more general case of everybody agreeing with them would illicit similar responses. What I said was:
when a group of professionals or even just people as a whole agree with me?
The use of "or even just" implies that I'm not talking about the same thing as "when a group of professionals". You should have been tipped off by the use of the word "or", which separates the two things. In this case, I'm talking about the more general idea of "people agreeing", in addition to the specific example of critics agreeing.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by ray245 »

adam_grif wrote:
No, you're a herd follower because you were "relieved" when you discovered that many critics agreed with you. You didn't just say it was "nice"; you said you were actually "relieved", ie- you were confused and afraid and then your fears were allayed when you found that your herd was moving in your direction.
To be a "herd follower", I'd have to be actively basing my views on things to conform to "the herd". This is sort of the opposite of what happened, since I hated transformers but didn't discover until later that lots of critics did too. The relief comes from knowing that I'm not the only person who thought that, in the same way you might feel good when you meet somebody who shares your taste in music.

It can't be considered herd behavior because there's nothing about my behavior that's changing to conform to a herd. My opinions were the same regardless of whether or not people agreed with them.

Considering me to be a "herd follower" solely because knowledge of incidental social conformity illicits some kind of emotional response from me would be as baseless and foolish as considering me to be a heroin junky solely because shooting me up would heroin would make me feel good.
And what will you be feeling if you find it hard to find people who shares the same view as you? Why do you need to feel relief that other people shares your taste?
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Re: Avatar review thread

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And what will you be feeling if you find it hard to find people who shares the same view as you?
Slightly bewildered.
Why do you need to feel relief that other people shares your taste?
Are you implying that I have conscious control over that sort of thing? That I sit there and go "boy, people agree with me," and then concentrate really hard until it makes me feel better about something? Come on now.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Ebert was actually pretty enthusiastic about the first Transformers movie and even had the gall to write MEGATRON(!!!) in all caps in his review, IIRC. :D
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Re: Avatar review thread

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Fair enough. The first one was better than the second one, with smoother fight scenes, fewer cheesy gags and so forth. If Ebert is good at picking good movies, I'd expect him to give the first one better reviews than the second.
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Re: Avatar review thread

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He hated the second one. :D
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Re: Avatar review thread

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Yeah his review of the second was pretty awesome:
"Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" is a horrible experience of unbearable length, briefly punctuated by three or four amusing moments. One of these involves a dog-like robot humping the leg of the heroine. Such are the meager joys. If you want to save yourself the ticket price, go into the kitchen, cue up a male choir singing the music of hell, and get a kid to start banging pots and pans together. Then close your eyes and use your imagination.

The plot is incomprehensible. The dialog of the Autobots®, Decepticons® and Otherbots® is meaningless word flap. Their accents are Brooklyese, British and hip-hop, as befits a race from the distant stars. Their appearance looks like junkyard throw-up. They are dumb as a rock. They share the film with human characters who are much more interesting, and that is very faint praise indeed.

The movie has been signed by Michael Bay. This is the same man who directed "The Rock" in 1996. Now he has made "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen." Faust made a better deal. This isn't a film so much as a toy tie-in. Children holding a Transformer toy in their hand can invest it with wonder and magic, imagining it doing brave deeds and remaining always their friend. I knew a little boy once who lost his blue toy truck at the movies, and cried as if his heart would break. Such a child might regard "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" with fear and dismay.


Megan Fox and Sam Witwicky outrun an explosion.

(Enlarge Image)
The human actors are in a witless sitcom part of the time, and lot of the rest of their time is spent running in slo-mo away from explosions, although--hello!--you can't outrun an explosion. They also make speeches like this one by John Turturro: "Oh, no! The machine is buried in the pyramid! If they turn it on, it will destroy the sun! Not on my watch!" The humans, including lots of U.S. troops, shoot at the Transformers a lot, although never in the history of science fiction has an alien been harmed by gunfire.

There are many great-looking babes in the film, who are made up to a flawless perfection and look just like real women, if you are a junior fanboy whose experience of the gender is limited to lad magazines. The two most inexplicable characters are Ron and Judy Witwicky (Kevin Dunn and Julie White), who are the parents of Shia LaBeouf, who Mephistopheles threw in to sweeten the deal. They take their son away to Princeton, apparently a party school, where Judy eats some pot and goes berserk. Later they swoop down out of the sky on Egypt, for reasons the movie doesn't make crystal clear, so they also can run in slo-mo from explosions.

The battle scenes are bewildering. A Bot makes no visual sense anyway, but two or three tangled up together create an incomprehensible confusion. I find it amusing that creatures that can unfold out of a Camaro and stand four stories high do most of their fighting with...fists. Like I say, dumber than a box of staples. They have tiny little heads, although Jetfire® must be made of older models, since he has an aluminum beard.

Aware that this movie opened in England seven hours before Chicago time and the morning papers would be on the streets, after writing the above I looked up the first reviews as a reality check. I was reassured: "Like watching paint dry while getting hit over the head with a frying pan!" (Bradshaw, Guardian); "Sums up everything that is most tedious, crass and despicable about modern Hollywood!" (Tookey, Daily Mail); "A giant, lumbering idiot of a movie!" (Edwards, Daily Mirror). The first American review, Todd Gilchrist of Cinematical, reported that Bay's "ambition runs a mile long and an inch deep," but, in a spirited defense, says "this must be the most movie I have ever experienced." He is bullish on the box office: it "feels destined to be the biggest movie of all time." It’s certainly the biggest something of all time.

Footnote 6/24: Does it strike you as a lapse of Pyramid security that no one notices a gigantic Deceptibot ripping off the top of the Great Pyramid? Not anyone watching on the live PyramidCam? Not even a traffic copter?
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Starglider »

This concept clearly has enduring popularity (at least, with people who make horribly drawn political comics);

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Re: Avatar review thread

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My favorite part of the cartoon is the Indy reference.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Kanastrous
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Kanastrous »

Look on the bright side, adam - Roger Ebert shares your need to be comforted by consensus-with-the-herd, too:

Aware that this movie opened in England seven hours before Chicago time and the morning papers would be on the streets, after writing the above I looked up the first reviews as a reality check. I was reassured: "Like watching paint dry while getting hit over the head with a frying pan!" (Bradshaw, Guardian)

/kidding
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adam_grif
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by adam_grif »

Thought a few people here might find this one amusing.

Image
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Shroom Man 777
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I don't get that. Probably because I'm shit with video games. Who're those guys and what game are they from?
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Steve
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by Steve »

Mass Effect series, I believe. The PC and his crew. The implication is the player took the "Good" choice and left the Pandorans alone... and his ship gets destroyed because he didn't get a necessary upgrade from the planet due to the choice.
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Re: Avatar review thread

Post by neoolong »

Mass Effect 2. That was pretty funny.

Although the proportions seem off, cause Element Zero isn't that easy to find.
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