Shadows vs Vorlons

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-10 09:26pm

Not a debate of firepowr or anything, but one of philosophy.

Who was right, the Shadows with "Advancement through conflict", or the Vorlons with "Advancement through order"

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-10 09:26pm

I actually think that the Shadows were "right" in that conflict drives evolution and innovation.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-10 09:31pm

Ahh, my 300th post already....how time flies when you're talking drivel....

Anyway, for this I'd have to say Shadows, they are right that most innovation and change comes through confrontation and conflict.
Order tends far more towards the status quo rather than radical change and development in the case of societies.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-01-10 09:31pm

I can't say that either is right, really. Advancement can come about through both paths. To choose one and force it on everyone is foolish and counterproductive, IMO. Each works with a different amount of success for different people at different times.

Though if I had to choose one of the two, I would go with the Shadows.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-10 09:57pm

Shadows.

It's Nature's path.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-01-10 10:27pm

While neither race is 100% correct, I would say that the Shadow's are more correct than the vorlons.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-01-10 10:30pm

While advancement through conflict is a lot faster then through order, it does usually involve the very nasty side effect of lots of people getting killed (people who, had they lived, might have contributed to great advancements, either through themselves or their offspring).

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-01-12 07:06am

"Without order nothing can survive
Without chaos nothing can evolve"

Hollow, but sounds cool.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-12 10:34am

Neither is wrong, what they're doing is ceasing to ask questions and imposing their own answers on the universe.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-12 10:35am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Neither is wrong, what they're doing is ceasing to ask questions and imposing their own answers on the universe.

I mean to say, neither is right.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-12 10:57am

Master of Ossus wrote:I actually think that the Shadows were "right" in that conflict drives evolution and innovation.

That's what Tolwyn thought in Wing Commander 4: "Fighting keeps us fit!"

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-12 11:11am

Order through chaos, evolution not revolution.

That's true of me. I evolve but I don't... revolve...

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2003-01-12 11:16am

Ender wrote:Not a debate of firepowr or anything, but one of philosophy.

Who was right, the Shadows with "Advancement through conflict", or the Vorlons with "Advancement through order"

Well, if we take a peek on REAL LIFE, humans have been advancing through conflicts. For instance, WW2 alone had driven many technological advancement (radar, nukes, Operation Research discipline, etc), while greek culture and philosophy were distributed by Alexander's conquest.

Shadows all the way.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-12 11:20am

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Well, if we take a peek on REAL LIFE, humans have been advancing through conflicts. For instance, WW2 alone had driven many technological advancement (radar, nukes, Operation Research discipline, etc), while greek culture and philosophy were distributed by Alexander's conquest.

Shadows all the way.

And if you overdo it you're liable to destroy yourself in the process.

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-01-12 11:54am

I'm going to have to play Devil's Advocate and say the Vorlons, simply because their method tended towards survival, rather than all-out genocidal warfare.

I'm talking about the Kosh Mk.I Vorlon style, of course. The rest of the race really seemed like stuck-up bastards. The Shadows at least gave their vassals the *choice*

IOW, Kosh > Shadows > Other Vorlons

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2003-01-12 12:36pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Well, if we take a peek on REAL LIFE, humans have been advancing through conflicts. For instance, WW2 alone had driven many technological advancement (radar, nukes, Operation Research discipline, etc), while greek culture and philosophy were distributed by Alexander's conquest.

Shadows all the way.
And if you overdo it you're liable to destroy yourself in the process.

I didn't quite follow B5 but did the Shadows overdo their own created conflicts?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2003-01-12 12:46pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Well, if we take a peek on REAL LIFE, humans have been advancing through conflicts. For instance, WW2 alone had driven many technological advancement (radar, nukes, Operation Research discipline, etc), while greek culture and philosophy were distributed by Alexander's conquest.

Shadows all the way.
And if you overdo it you're liable to destroy yourself in the process.
I didn't quite follow B5 but did the Shadows overdo their own created conflicts?

Oops I mean aside of Shadow War.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-12 01:27pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:I didn't quite follow B5 but did the Shadows overdo their own created conflicts?

Likely yes.
Nevertheless, they're wrong in promoting conflict and only that, there are other ways.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-12 01:52pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Well, if we take a peek on REAL LIFE, humans have been advancing through conflicts. For instance, WW2 alone had driven many technological advancement (radar, nukes, Operation Research discipline, etc), while greek culture and philosophy were distributed by Alexander's conquest.

Shadows all the way.
And if you overdo it you're liable to destroy yourself in the process.

In which case you deserved to be destroyed, and others will take your place. That's the point of the Shadow philosophy.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-12 02:02pm

Obviously, both sides represent the extremes. I would lean towards Kosh Mk1 because he seemed to realize that there are shades of gray.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-01-13 10:20am

Howedar wrote:Obviously, both sides represent the extremes. I would lean towards Kosh Mk1 because he seemed to realize that there are shades of gray.

I think you are right on that.

"Understanding is a three-edged sword".

Doesn't seem to fit with the standard Vorlon philosophy. They tend to be more of the our way and the wrong way philosophy.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-13 11:33am

Shadow and Vorlon philosophies are so inefficient, and there is no saying wich is better since we see that both the Shadows and Vorlons are pretty equal.

Saying anyone to be better is short sighted, seems more to be "which is cooler?" question to me.

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