Mimbari- pussies?

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-13 12:32am

Just a underlying theme I seem to have gotten from the few Babylon 5 episodes I've seen so far (all of Season 1, first few episodes of season 2)

WTF is up with the Mimbari?

Their leader is killed in a battle with Earth, yes? They go on a holy crusade. Fine.

They lose the BlackStar and several other war cruisers thanks to Sheridans bomb trick. What do they do? Whine about it. They hate Sheridan, they can't believe that in the war they actually copped casualties- at least that's the impression I got.

Sore losers .... so you lost a few ships, goddamit take it like a man!

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-13 12:33am

I was under the impression that it was the first war they've had in a few centuries perhaps. Could have something to do with that.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-13 12:37am

Part of the reaosn is that the Minbari were WIPING THE FLOOR up with humanity and Sheridan's act was their biggest defeat, not only just the warcruiser but it happened to be crewed by the finest officers and men in the military (I don't think the US hasna ship like that)

Think of it this way. It would be as if on the last day of the Gulf War when the hundred hour ground war is nearly up and we've just KICKED Sadaam's ass up and down the desrt with relatively light casualties, an unknown Iraqi commander manages to sink an aircraft carrier by hitting it with underwater mines or some such.

They were expecting a cakewalk and when the enemy wasn't as stupid and as weak as they were led to believe they got pissed. Check out the movie "In the Beginning" it shows you alot of what went on in the war and you can see the arrogance in the Minbarri warrior cast as the war wound down. They were kicking ass and taking names and suffering light casualties and everyone likes to be in that position.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-13 12:40am

Look at it this way. The Minbari have at least a 1500 year lead over the EA. They have every right to get into a shooting match with the local savages and come away with no more losses than the US suffered in Preying Mantis (mid 1980s disposal of the Iranian navy) or the Kosovo operation. Losing a handful of ships would be just as shocking to the boneheads as the USS COLE attack was to the Americans: savages just aren't supposed to be able to bite back.

In a rational universe, the boneheads' lead would be more than enough to squash EA about as flat as the GE would be after an encounter with the Culture but that's an out-of-universe reason for the Minbari to be severely pissed off.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-13 12:58am

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-01-13 01:39am

Enlightenment wrote:<wonders if this thread will degenerate into speculation about Minbari reproductive equipment...>

Well, we already know about centari equipment. How ambout the boneheads then?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-13 02:44am

It was meant to be the flag ship of thier fleet, thier biggest baddest cruiser....and it got blown up by people that were roughly the equivelant of cockroaches in thier world view at the time.....it was thier only defeat of the war and it pissed them off.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-13 03:09am

Keevan_Colton wrote:It was meant to be the flag ship of thier fleet, thier biggest baddest cruiser....and it got blown up by people that were roughly the equivelant of cockroaches in thier world view at the time.....it was thier only defeat of the war and it pissed them off.

That's the problem. Let's say a military commander of a side getting its ass utterly kicked gives a bloody nose to the force that's kicking its ass. He should be respected, not loathed.

Take for example, the smart Iraqi tankers in their useless T-62s turning off their engines so they didn't show up on the M1 tanks thermal imagers. Two (IIRC) M1s drove by, and the T-62s destroyed them with side/rear shots. That takes brains, and balls.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-13 03:15am

Vympel wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:It was meant to be the flag ship of thier fleet, thier biggest baddest cruiser....and it got blown up by people that were roughly the equivelant of cockroaches in thier world view at the time.....it was thier only defeat of the war and it pissed them off.
That's the problem. Let's say a military commander of a side getting its ass utterly kicked gives a bloody nose to the force that's kicking its ass. He should be respected, not loathed.

Take for example, the smart Iraqi tankers in their useless T-62s turning off their engines so they didn't show up on the M1 tanks thermal imagers. Two (IIRC) M1s drove by, and the T-62s destroyed them with side/rear shots. That takes brains, and balls.

Sheridan is as I recall given grudging respect....but they still loathe him for taking out their flag ship.....they did give him the nickname "Starkiller" for his trouble.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-13 11:55pm

Vympel wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:It was meant to be the flag ship of thier fleet, thier biggest baddest cruiser....and it got blown up by people that were roughly the equivelant of cockroaches in thier world view at the time.....it was thier only defeat of the war and it pissed them off.
That's the problem. Let's say a military commander of a side getting its ass utterly kicked gives a bloody nose to the force that's kicking its ass. He should be respected, not loathed.

Take for example, the smart Iraqi tankers in their useless T-62s turning off their engines so they didn't show up on the M1 tanks thermal imagers. Two (IIRC) M1s drove by, and the T-62s destroyed them with side/rear shots. That takes brains, and balls.

Yes, but the warrior caste is all about honor. Taking out a ship in the way Sheridan did (sending a distress call, and then setting off the mines) was a cowardly and dishonorable way to fight. To lose their best ship in that manner was a huge disgrace for the warrioir caste. And, all the reasons stated above apply, too.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-14 12:00am

They were ticked off primarily because they were forced to surrender. I got the feeling that they had kind of transfered their hatred for that decision from the Grey Council (which they MUST respect) and towards Sheridan, whom it was okay to hate.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-14 12:01am

Yes, but the warrior caste is all about honor. Taking out a ship in the way Sheridan did (sending a distress call, and then setting off the mines) was a cowardly and dishonorable way to fight. To lose their best ship in that manner was a huge disgrace for the warrioir caste. And, all the reasons stated above apply, too.

Yes, but why should honor that applies to one species apply to another?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-14 12:01am

Master of Ossus wrote:They were ticked off primarily because they were forced to surrender. I got the feeling that they had kind of transfered their hatred for that decision from the Grey Council (which they MUST respect) and towards Sheridan, whom it was okay to hate.

That, too

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-14 12:04am

Vympel wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:It was meant to be the flag ship of thier fleet, thier biggest baddest cruiser....and it got blown up by people that were roughly the equivelant of cockroaches in thier world view at the time.....it was thier only defeat of the war and it pissed them off.
That's the problem. Let's say a military commander of a side getting its ass utterly kicked gives a bloody nose to the force that's kicking its ass. He should be respected, not loathed.

Take for example, the smart Iraqi tankers in their useless T-62s turning off their engines so they didn't show up on the M1 tanks thermal imagers. Two (IIRC) M1s drove by, and the T-62s destroyed them with side/rear shots. That takes brains, and balls.

OT, but no M1s were destroyed by enemy fire in Desert Storm (according to Cpt. Seifert, my American Military History professor). They may have gotten Bradleys, but not Abrams.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-14 12:09am

The Dark wrote:OT, but no M1s were destroyed by enemy fire in Desert Storm (according to Cpt. Seifert, my American Military History professor). They may have gotten Bradleys, but not Abrams.

Untrue. What he probably meant was no M1 crews died by enemy fire. Those two M1 crews were unscathed, but their tanks were killed.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-14 12:11am

Vympel wrote:
The Dark wrote:OT, but no M1s were destroyed by enemy fire in Desert Storm (according to Cpt. Seifert, my American Military History professor). They may have gotten Bradleys, but not Abrams.
Untrue. What he probably meant was no M1 crews died by enemy fire. Those two M1 crews were unscathed, but their tanks were killed.

Btw, are you aware that your title is spelled wrong? It should be Spetsnaz, not Spetznaz.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-14 12:15am

fgalkin wrote: Btw, are you aware that your title is spelled wrong? It should be Spetsnaz, not Spetznaz.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Fuck. Will PM Lord Wong.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 22-1304916

Iron Soldiers- source for the T-62 with engine off kill. The T-62 was destroyed after it knocked out the two M-1s because it's hot gun barrel gave it away.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-01-14 12:23am

Vympel wrote:
fgalkin wrote:Btw, are you aware that your title is spelled wrong? It should be Spetsnaz, not Spetznaz.
Fuck. Will PM Lord Wong.

No need. Unicron sees all.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-14 12:25am

AdmiralKanos wrote: No need. Unicron sees all.

See this is one of the many reasons why SD.net rules!

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-14 12:25am

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Vympel wrote:
fgalkin wrote:Btw, are you aware that your title is spelled wrong? It should be Spetsnaz, not Spetznaz.
Fuck. Will PM Lord Wong.
No need. Unicron sees all.

All hail Lord Unicron! We are yours to command!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-14 01:16am

Vympel wrote:
The Dark wrote:OT, but no M1s were destroyed by enemy fire in Desert Storm (according to Cpt. Seifert, my American Military History professor). They may have gotten Bradleys, but not Abrams.
Untrue. What he probably meant was no M1 crews died by enemy fire. Those two M1 crews were unscathed, but their tanks were killed.

Will ask the Captain next time I see him.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-14 01:27am

And using the flyer to lead human ships into a trap wasn't dishonorable?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-14 01:32am

fgalkin wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:It was meant to be the flag ship of thier fleet, thier biggest baddest cruiser....and it got blown up by people that were roughly the equivelant of cockroaches in thier world view at the time.....it was thier only defeat of the war and it pissed them off.
That's the problem. Let's say a military commander of a side getting its ass utterly kicked gives a bloody nose to the force that's kicking its ass. He should be respected, not loathed.

Take for example, the smart Iraqi tankers in their useless T-62s turning off their engines so they didn't show up on the M1 tanks thermal imagers. Two (IIRC) M1s drove by, and the T-62s destroyed them with side/rear shots. That takes brains, and balls.
Yes, but the warrior caste is all about honor. Taking out a ship in the way Sheridan did (sending a distress call, and then setting off the mines) was a cowardly and dishonorable way to fight. To lose their best ship in that manner was a huge disgrace for the warrioir caste. And, all the reasons stated above apply, too.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

It was explained in "In the Beginning" that the Minbari didn't take prisoners during the war. Therefore, it wasn't really that dishonorable since it wasn't like the Minbari should have been expecting to pick up prisoners. They were there to slaughter the survivors. That isn't very honorable either.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-14 01:44am

From the posts above, it's pretty obvious that the Minbari have a different sense of honor than we do. In light of that, it's unfair to project their honor on someone of a different species, like the Minbari did with Starkiller.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-01-14 01:49am

The Earth War for the Warrior Clans was a Jihad of Vengance for the death of Dhukat. The Minbari Warriors expected victory at every turn, and to have a lowly human trick and destroy their Flagship, the Dralafi' and kill the greatest warriors in the Clans was a stain on the honor of them all, on top of that , after two years of fighting, aginst surprising resistance to be orderd to surrender was almost more than they could take. Remember that the Grey Council, never explained to the Warriors WHY they ordered the surrender at the line.
Sheridan for his part in the affair was given the name 'Starkiller' at once a note of equal parts repesct and derision.

As to being pussies, remember the Minbari and the Grey Council in the end served other masters for much of their history, namely the Vorlons in fighting as their proxies aginst the Shadows and their proxies to decide the great debate between the Elder races over whos vision would be implemented, Order and Structure for the Vorlons or Chaos and Survival.