Webers "PAth of the Fury" Empire vs GE

[Connor MacLeod]

I saw this thread running at SB

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=43014

Same conditions apply, who wins?

[Stormbringer]

Same conditions apply, who wins?

Galatic Empire.

The Furyverse Empire has to major disadvantages. Size and FTL Speed. Both are miniscule compared to Palpatines Empire.

The Fury Empire has a few thousand worlds developed to worthwhile levels. Compare that with the massive GE war machine and they loose through sheer attrition.

And the GE's FTL advantage is staggering. Most Furverse ships make about 500c and that'll get them very very dead.

[Shrike]

And the GE's FTL advantage is staggering. Most Furverse ships make about 500c and that'll get them very very dead.

It'll be a fight that the GE won't ever forget.... SLAMs will eat ImpStars dead, and a Furyverse task force would have a lot of SLAMs. It would be a highly bloody war either way.

[Ender]

Good to see Commisar"Your turbolasers won't get through honorverse shields even though they are shown to be massless in the movies"Jan is still active.

1) What are SLAMs?
2) What about tha armor of thses ships? If it can use a blackhole as a drive, that has to be some monsterous materials and structural engineering (that or Weber is going to the point of lunacy again)
3) Why did they start arguing max velocities when the topic was accel getting them out of the way of ramming?
4) Would the ramming with the black hole have an effect? The voids used by the Vong get canceld out when they try to ram, but those don't seem to be true black holes. Of course, neither do these if ships use them for propulsion in grav wells.
5) Jans point about SW combat ranges is BS. Close range fighting is a favored tactic by the rebels post Endor because it minimizes some Imperial advantages, but the NJO shows most engagements happening at long range (IE the controversial Rebel Dream shot, in Agents of Chaos a ship that jumped across the solar system being engaged a few minutes later, the TL range given in the SWTJ, the quote from Solo Command (I think that was it, might have been iron fist) about the differences in Effective range and maximum range that puts a difference of a few million klicks based on the Mandel speeds)
6) Furyverse have any superweapons?

[Ender]

And idle speculation since it couldn't be a valid sustainrd tactic:

What would happen if a SC torp was shot into a blackhole?

[SylasGaunt]

SLAMs are Fasset drive missiles, i.e. a targeted black hole.

[Stormbringer]

And idle speculation since it couldn't be a valid sustainrd tactic:

What would happen if a SC torp was shot into a blackhole?

I assume you mean a Sun Crusher Torpedo?

If that's what you mean it'd be destroyed. Not to mention why would you do that in the first place.

[Ender]

SLAMs are Fasset drive missiles, i.e. a targeted black hole.

So a teraton level bomb? The size of the missile would restirct the size of the collapsing singularity, keeping it in the low numbers. Why are people claiming they will take out SDs in a single shot then?

[Ender]

And idle speculation since it couldn't be a valid sustainrd tactic:

What would happen if a SC torp was shot into a blackhole?

I assume you mean a Sun Crusher Torpedo?

If that's what you mean it'd be destroyed. Not to mention why would you do that in the first place.

Well, I wonder if it would be destroyed. The description says any star, meaning it can handle neutron stars no problem. A black hole is a few magnitudes greater, which is why I wonder. Would it maybe make the black hole explode, or is the difference too great?

And I was wondering because it struck me as something to idley be speculated.

[SylasGaunt]

SLAMs are Fasset drive missiles, i.e. a targeted black hole.

So a teraton level bomb? The size of the missile would restirct the size of the collapsing singularity, keeping it in the low numbers. Why are people claiming they will take out SDs in a single shot then?

This isn't a bomb this is a black hole ramming you at c-fractoional velocities

[Ender]

SLAMs are Fasset drive missiles, i.e. a targeted black hole.

So a teraton level bomb? The size of the missile would restirct the size of the collapsing singularity, keeping it in the low numbers. Why are people claiming they will take out SDs in a single shot then?

This isn't a bomb this is a black hole ramming you at c-fractoional velocities

Ok then. From the term missile I was thinking bomb, meaning a collapsing black hole.

Wonder if the compensator field would negate it.

[Xon]

1) What are SLAMs?

A missile which generates a blackhole and is in constant freefall into the black hole. However the blackhole is moving(through act of technobable what else?)

They have a projector systems that projects a blackholes into existance a given distance away from the projector. Th projector falls towards the blackhole, but because the blackhole is projected relative to the projector the blackhole is always a fixed distance away form the ship.

2) What about tha armor of thses ships? If it can use a blackhole as a drive, that has to be some monsterous materials and structural engineering (that or Weber is going to the point of lunacy again)

IIRC they really dont go into what they use for armour. Considering their main style of weapon is a blackhole moving at 0.98c, armour is fairlt useless. Also the blackhole is projected some distance away from the ship/missile, they can control were it is projected & the distance it is projected at.

4) Would the ramming with the black hole have an effect?

Yes, a SLAM kills by ramming stuff with the blackhole of the drive system at fractional c.

5) Jans point about SW combat ranges is BS. Close range fighting is a favored tactic by the rebels post Endor because it minimizes some Imperial advantages, but the NJO shows most engagements happening at long range (IE the controversial Rebel Dream shot, in Agents of Chaos a ship that jumped across the solar system being engaged a few minutes later, the TL range given in the SWTJ, the quote from Solo Command (I think that was it, might have been iron fist) about the differences in Effective range and maximum range that puts a difference of a few million klicks based on the Mandel speeds)

A few million klicks(a few lightseconds) is still close range for Furyverse. For example SLAMs have a range of 37 lightminutes.

[Xon]

Wonder if the compensator field would negate it.

There are several problems for that:
They ram at c-fractoional velocities, this alone gives them Enormous KE. Then there is the mass of the object. Havent got a clue, but the entire missile would probable mass a few tons or at least a few kilograms.

Then there is the whole blackholes event horizen hitting you.

So the graviational field is actually a fairly minor problem.

Simply put, if a Starwars ship is hit with a SLAM then it is dead.

[Ender]

4) Would the ramming with the black hole have an effect?

Yes, a SLAM kills by ramming stuff with the blackhole of the drive system at fractional c.

Except the inertial compensator fields in wars can be used to negate the black holes used by the Vong so their ramming attacks don't work like that. I think the same thing might happen here. Meaning these vaunted SLAMs would be overblown kinetic weapons

A few million klicks(a few lightseconds) is still close range for Furyverse. For example SLAMs have a range of 37 lightminutes.

And still contradicts his attempt at a point.

[Xon]

Yes, a SLAM kills by ramming stuff with the blackhole of the drive system at fractional c.

Except the inertial compensator fields in wars can be used to negate the black holes used by the Vong so their ramming attacks don't work like that. I think the same thing might happen here. Meaning these vaunted SLAMs would be overblown kinetic weapons

The blackholes used by Furyverse are not the same as the psuedo-blackholes used by the Vong.

Furyverse drive blackholes behave like real blackholes!

Starwars ships can not land on a neutron star, they can get really close but thats about it. The gravitational field of a blackhole is much much greater than a neurton star.

Also the Sun Crusher Torpedo would not destroy a neurton star. The Sun Crusher Torpedo is decribed as causing a chain reaction in a star primaryly composed of hydrogen & Helium to cause a type 2 super-nova. A neutron star is a solid mass of matter!

[Ender]

Furyverse drive blackholes behave like real blackholes!

If that were the case the drive should not work.

Also the Sun Crusher Torpedo would not destroy a neurton star. The Sun Crusher Torpedo is decribed as causing a chain reaction in a star primaryly composed of hydrogen & Helium to cause a type 2 super-nova. A neutron star is a solid mass of matter!

It explicetly says any type in the EGWT IIRC

[Connor MacLeod]

yeah.. As much of a Weber fan as I am, I have a hard time believing the Fasset Drive is a REAL black hole (were it, the ship would not be moving

I also have trouble believing said black hole (or the SLAMS) actually function as any sort of kinetic missile....

[SylasGaunt]

I doubt it works on kinetic effects either.. the most obvious and likely method of it's operation is for the thing to just drive right through whatever it hits.

[Dahak]

As for armour: they do have armour. And use energy weapons as well. Ranges for energy weapons are 15 LS btw.

SLAM is short for Supra-Light Accelerated Missile. And does bad things to ships or planets.

And about super weapons: They *Do* have SLAMs. Qoute from Path of the Fury, p. 122"There was little point building groundside defenses against attack from space; if a capital ship got into weapons range of a planet, that planet was dead, whatever happened to its attacker., for the black holes of a dozen SLAMs comming in at near light-speed would tear any planet to pieces."

[Stormbringer]

I doubt it works on kinetic effects either.. the most obvious and likely method of it's operation is for the thing to just drive right through whatever it hits.

Well, freaking duh. That's the whole idea behind a SLAM missle. The point is, even if you find a way to negate the black hole you still have a multi-ton missle bearing down at you at the better of c.

[consequences]

Note: the SLAM missile is half the size of an assault shuttle, and even the largest capital ships can only carry a limited number. Also, any cpital ship can use its drive as an uber-ramming weapon, and would probably survive going through Star Destroyers the long way. However, the Fasset drive only protects the front.
They have a force shield(referred to as Battle Screen), and their armor is called "Battle Steel" but few concrete figures are known. Their missiles do have warheads of 1 gigaton though. Max observed acceleration is about 2500G. Max observed ftl speed 1400c. No planetary shields though, so each empire can easily kill any planet they range on.

[Connor MacLeod]

I doubt it works on kinetic effects either.. the most obvious and likely method of it's operation is for the thing to just drive right through whatever it hits.

Probably. I'm just pointing it out, since the SLAMs appear to get the same fanboy-worship treatement that PSPs do in andromeda (even to the assumption that they'll be "huge kinetic impactors" - except the Rommies think that their ships are literally hurling masses as large as a planet at relatavistic speeds

SLAMs represent the greatest danger offensively that any ISD would probably face. No doubt that if the sucker hits, it will plow right through shields and hull (we've seen from the NJO how shields are against black holes) But we also know they might be able to use their acceleration compensators to limit or negate the effect - it depends on how strong the SLAM's gravity field is, really

[Connor MacLeod]

The most amusing aspect of this debate has been that its assumed that the Imperials would just walk into the SLAM missile fire repeatedly. No doubt they'd lose ships initially, but they would learn the dangers and take measures to avoid them.

Keep in mind that the one real disadvantage frequent among Weberverse ships (save the 4th Empire, really) is that they like to engage at relatavistic speeds (sometimes low, sometimes high) and at VERY long ranges (light minutes or seconds) - partly this is because how far away they emerge from FTL in systems, but its also because they give their missiles time to accelerate (in most cases - in some cases they can no doubt accelerate the missiles via launcher - the "sprint mode" in examples like the Starfire universe.) and that those missiles usually end up at near-c too (although they take time to do so).

This has a distinctly unpleasant disadvantage when facing someone who has a better tactical FTL system than you do (your sublight propulsion takes awhile to boost you up to high speed, yet thats the only way you can get in-system in any reasonable timeframe.) Such high speeds negate one's ability to manuver quite effectively (because for the most part you have to dump all that inertia) Same goes for missiles, although you can dodge a missile even in sublight given enough warning - ten seconds or so should be enough if the warship is aware. Even more, with the distances most weberverse ships engage in missile exchanges at, any Imperial ship could "hop" in close against and pound with weapons fire - if the Furyverse ships are plowing in at relatavistic speeds, there's little they can do to stop the Empire from popping in behind them.

Also keep in mind that frequently, most Weberverse ships tend to have HUGE gravitational signatures. While they CAN mask it, ususally its penetrable with in a few light seconds or more - at the very least, the drive signature of those SLAMs is going to be hard to mask.

Without the Fasset drive or fasset missiles, its harder for the Furyverse side. While its not easy to estimate exact damage capability, we do have some ideas. Typically their missile warheads seem to be gigaton range (low gigaton - 1000 megatons exactly, I think) and presumably their energy armament is of comparable output to the missiles (so we're probably talking low to mid gigaton here.) I'd guesstimate maybe their firepower as being 4-5x that of the Honorverse, and something probably comparable to the starfire universe (tens of gigatons per second, sustained - possibly a couple hundred for the biggest ships.) But nothing on the order of magnitude of an GE warship. on a tonnage for tonnage (or size for size basis) - the Empire still comes out on top (and this isnt even including that the Empire has BIGGER warships.)

Not only that, but the GE has a far larger industrial base (literally orders of magnitude larger in terms of territorial holdings.) but it seems to build much faster - consider a Death Star sized ship in a few years and the kinds of resources it represents! Typically in most Weberverse books, it takes a couple of years to b uild the big warships (Monitor/superdreadnaught type) - this may not be applicable in the Furyverse - but I bet its close. Which means the Empire can also build ships alot faster.

Also consider that there is virtually no way fro the Furyverse to launch any effective attack ON the GE on any substantial scale, weapons or not, due to their lower FTL capability.

In short, even if we conclude there is no possible way for Imperial ships to match Furyverse ships in close combat, we simply point out that ISD's do not NEED to. With their firepower and Tactical FTL superiority (not to mention sensor/communications advantage) Pop into realspace close to the planet (in Wedge's Gamble, ISD's could come out of range about 30-40,000 km away from a planet.) pop off turbolaser volleys to blast the planet - an acclamator's broadside (6 200 GT TLs) could deilver 1e9 megatons (approximate extinction threshold) in under 30 minutes (assuming only one broadside firing and 1 volley per 2 seconds - the ISD medium TL rate of fire which is comparable to the quad TLs on the Acclamator - although ANH implies a higher ROF) Being so close to the planet would negate the ability of SLAMs to engage the target (not to mention making missile fire more difficult to employ) and they could easily lure any defending fleet out to meet them before jumping in close (leaving only the orbital forts that may defend a planet as opposition.)

3 ISDs per planet should be enough. In short order, the GE would bring the Furyverse empire to its knees without ever engaging in direct combat.

[consequences]

A battlecruiser had 1 gigaton missile warheads, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that a Superdreadnought with ten times the mass might have 10-20 Gig warheads. Going by relative scale to the only warhead figure we have from honorverse, 78 megatons from a heavy cruiser, your guesstimate seems to be pretty spot on. I think your wrong about the force the GE would have to bring to bear, 3 ISDs per planet is overkill.

[SylasGaunt]

Well I don't really think the Furyverse empire can win anyway, the GE's FTL speed advantage is just to great, but they are going to taking losses no doubt about that (and is over on spacebattles where someone quoted a passage about an Alpha-synth pulling accelerations in excess of 4300g, not sure where the 2500 number comes from)