Elementals (Btech) Vs. Stromtroopers

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-01-20 02:42pm

Who would win?

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-01-20 02:45pm

I'd put my money on the Elementals, seeing as how they could just sprint and leap their way right up next to the stormie and then rend him into small pieces.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-01-20 02:48pm

Let's see. Elementals have jumpjets, a laser, a machinegun (although that won't help much), an optional Short Range Missile launcher, and their claws are strong enough to rip through the armor on battlemechs. They also have self-healing armor and are genetically designed to be bigger, stronger, tougher, and faster than normal humans. I think they take this, although it'll be a nasty fight.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2003-01-20 02:50pm

the stormies might have a chance if they can kill the elementals from long range, but once it get into HTH, the elementals tear the stormtroopers to ribbons with their claws

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-01-20 02:54pm

Depends on whether the stormtroopers carry their usual equipment into battle, or whether they are neutered into an infantry-only force, with no air support, artillery, or armour.

Elementals and BTech units in general are based on the "all in one" philosophy where air support, artillery, and armour are all integrated into one unit. Stormtroopers use more realistic combined-arms warfare. If we assume that the stormtroopers' armour, artillery, and air is all taken away from them, they are basically neutered and this becomes a really stupid handicap match.

Fully equipped stormies take it easily. Neutered stormies don't.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-01-20 02:58pm

AdmiralKanos wrote: Elementals and BTech units in general are based on the "all in one" philosophy where air support, artillery, and armour are all integrated into one unit.

Not really in the Elemental's case. They take after RAH's Mobile Infantry more than anything. From what I've read on B-tech history, Elementals against airiel force perform very poorly. Otherwise, the clans wouldn't bother creating an airforce.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-01-20 03:06pm

IG-88E wrote:
AdmiralKanos wrote: Elementals and BTech units in general are based on the "all in one" philosophy where air support, artillery, and armour are all integrated into one unit.
Not really in the Elemental's case. They take after RAH's Mobile Infantry more than anything.

Exactly, the RAH's Mobile Infantry are basically a combination of close-in air support, artillery, and armour.

From what I've read on B-tech history, Elementals against airiel force perform very poorly. Otherwise, the clans wouldn't bother creating an airforce.

You are confusing dedicated ground air-support with an air force. In real life, we have vehicles like Apaches and A-10 warthogs that would get their asses handed to them by fighters, but which act as GROUND-SUPPORT aircraft.

As I said, BTech combines armour, artillery, infantry, and air support into a single unit. To remove all of those attributes from a typical Imperial ground force neuters them and turns this into a stupid handicap match.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-01-20 03:08pm

Ah. Yeep, my bad.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-20 06:41pm

Clan Cloud Cobra has a type of flying elemental if I remeber coreectly

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 06:44pm

And there are some specialized Elementals. The basic was intended to be a JOAT, but there's the Salamander (anti-infantry flamethrower), one named after some kind of Earth elemental (heavy armor, heavy weapons). The Clans do seem to have eventually figured that semi-specialized armor units are superior to a JOAT, but they're unwilling to try too much too quickly (extremely conservative society).

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-20 06:54pm

the flying ones are Sylphs. Incredibly mobile by battlearmor standards, but they only carry a micro pulse laser and a cluster bomb rack, and their armor is light. There's also the Undine which is the underwater version: that has an ER micro laser and 5 shot torpedo rack (probably a misnomer since the "torpedoes" can be fired out of the water.)

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 07:12pm

beyond hope wrote:the flying ones are Sylphs. Incredibly mobile by battlearmor standards, but they only carry a micro pulse laser and a cluster bomb rack, and their armor is light. There's also the Undine which is the underwater version: that has an ER micro laser and 5 shot torpedo rack (probably a misnomer since the "torpedoes" can be fired out of the water.)

IIRC, "torpedoes" in BT are missiles that can be used underwater, but the racks can carry either torps or missiles (it may be a stat misprint, though).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 07:20pm

*imagines fancy BTech units being blown to shreds by AT-AT artillery from long range*

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-20 07:21pm

These aren't an either/or thing like Mech torpedoes though, the rules specifically allow you to fire them on land, in water, and out of depth 1 water at targets on land. They're also LRMs, which is a very cool thing to see on a battlearmor suit.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-01-20 07:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:*imagines fancy BTech units being blown to shreds by AT-AT artillery from long range*

All but the terminally brain-damaged on the BattleTech side would concur. I'd be curious as to how an AT-ST stacks up against BattleTech.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-01-20 07:55pm

beyond hope wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:*imagines fancy BTech units being blown to shreds by AT-AT artillery from long range*
All but the terminally brain-damaged on the BattleTech side would concur. I'd be curious as to how an AT-ST stacks up against BattleTech.

An AT-ST was taken out by tree trunks, I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for any Btech unit

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-20 09:39pm

reminds me of a merc unit I ran, 4 inner sphere mediums vs 5 clan lights. I shredded their paper thin armor, and they crippled my unit.

can a at-st shatter a bt mech? they appeared somewhat accurate, shooting individual ewoks and stormtroopers. . . but the range was admittedly low.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 10:04pm

Elementals would only stand a chance in a really lucky ambush situation. They would have to attack in terrain the AT-ATs can't enter (steep mountains or swamp are the only thing that come to mind) and take out the AT-STs before getting annihilated by them. Other than that, no dice.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-20 10:18pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:can a at-st shatter a bt mech? they appeared somewhat accurate, shooting individual ewoks and stormtroopers. . . but the range was admittedly low.

The Rebel front-lines and the walkers began exchanging fire at a range so long that they could only see them with binoculars. And AT-AT's were able to shoot down snowspeeders. The only way a BTech mech could get anywhere close to an AT-AT is if it can approach under cover of terrain, like in a mountainous environment. And in such an environment, the stormies would be deploying speeder-bikes and gunships for fast recon and air support.

BTech only beats stormies if you neuter them by taking away most of their stuff. Even a man with an E-Web could blow a hole through any BTech mech (we're talking about a gun which can punch through military-grade SW starship armour).

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-20 10:29pm

Uh...Wong, not getting into this, but he was talking about AT-ST, not the AT-AT. Not sure if that changes anything...
Millitary grade starship armor with an E-WEB? Examples? I mean, I know the Millenium Falcon is souped up, but that far?

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-01-21 12:35am

Vejut wrote:Uh...Wong, not getting into this, but he was talking about AT-ST, not the AT-AT. Not sure if that changes anything...

Well, it does and it doesn't. The AT-ST's were protecting AT-AT flanks during the initial advance, and their range is just as great. But they were never shown shooting down snowspeeders, and we don't know how much firepower they carry. However, given the firepower of the light anti-tank gun in a heavy speeder like the Naboo Gian, as shown below:

I would say that while low-power shots are obviously set to anti-personnel levels, it is clearly possible for weapons of that size to charge up for much more destructive anti-armour shots. This thing punched through at least 6 inches of SW armour.

Millitary grade starship armor with an E-WEB? Examples? I mean, I know the Millenium Falcon is souped up, but that far?

Yes. Solo salvaged some military-grade armour plating from some derelicts left over from a space battle, in "Rebel Dawn" IIRC.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-21 07:46am

Very well then. Thanks.

Slacker · Post by **Slacker** » 2003-01-21 12:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:can a at-st shatter a bt mech? they appeared somewhat accurate, shooting individual ewoks and stormtroopers. . . but the range was admittedly low.
The Rebel front-lines and the walkers began exchanging fire at a range so long that they could only see them with binoculars. And AT-AT's were able to shoot down snowspeeders. The only way a BTech mech could get anywhere close to an AT-AT is if it can approach under cover of terrain, like in a mountainous environment. And in such an environment, the stormies would be deploying speeder-bikes and gunships for fast recon and air support.

BTech only beats stormies if you neuter them by taking away most of their stuff. Even a man with an E-Web could blow a hole through any BTech mech (we're talking about a gun which can punch through military-grade SW starship armour).

True, very true. Not arguing that, if the Battletech side (We'll assume an FedCom RCT at Hoth as opposed to the Rebel defenders) lets the Imps come to them, they'll lose.

Most battlemechs are about the same size as AT-STs. They're built far more sturdily-the log tricks won't work on a Templar, for example-but dimension wise, it's an even odds situation. So, I've got a hundred odd Battlemechs, which are of somewhat limited utility in this open field fighting situation. The terrain isn't my ideal for this sort of thing, as the AT-ATs can fire at maximum range. Not that they'd neccesarily *hit* all those moving targets, but it would take a good five or six minutes for an assault battalion to close the range, so presumably I'd take a few losses.

I've got between two and four wings of fighters, it varies depending on the RCT in question. Capability wise, they're superificially similar to T-47s, but typically with considerably more firepower (The T-47 wasn't designed for firepower) and probably somewhat more maneuverable. They'd be able to deal with concentrations of stormtroopers, AT-STs and the like, and maybe damage some of the big guys with enough concentrated firepower. Or slow them down at least.

The five regiments of infantry and assorted artillery and VTOL forces would perform the PBI role seen in ESB. Nothing really changes except the equipment, and I suppose some of the numbers.

The three regiments of armor would best be deployed to thicken the static defenses, although a regiment of hover armor-Plainsman, Musketeers, Pegasus, and the like-would probably be rather effective in the cavalry role against Imp ground troops, not to mention jurry-rigging the trip-wire method of killing AT-ATs. A Pegasus, for example, could clock in at about 150 kph on the ground, and would be well suited to trip a walker up.

The big thing to use against the walkers would be battlearmor. Clan or IS, the basic capabilities are about the same, and both are uniquely suited to dealing with this particular threat. Deploy a platoon to engage each walker. They get underneath them, grappel on, and then get to work damaging just about everything. God forbid they break through the cockpit-something tells me they wouldn't take too long disabling a walker once they had forcefully tossed the commander and the driver three or four stories. And one thing AT-ATs don't have in any great supply are anti-infantry defenses up close. If Luke can blow one up with a limpet mine and a magnetic cable, then battle armor designed to do the same thing to Battlemechs shouldn't have much trouble. Character shields and Force powers aside.

The mechs would actually be limited to engaging chicken walkers and harrasment. Ironic that I wouldn't use Battletech's primary weapons system in a battle like this, but fighters, hovertanks, and especially battlearmor are far more suited for it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 12:34pm

You forget that since BTech lacks a theatre shield, they would not be facing AT-AT's and AT-ST's alone. Even if we disregard the no-brainer of the Imps softening the place up with precision bombardment from orbit before attacking, they now must face gunships, heavy artillery, AND the various regular walker units. You are envisioning a scenario in which AT-AT's basically attack by themselves.

And an AT-ST is not a heavily armoured vehicle, but you can't ignore them. Their job is to keep the AT-AT flanks clear, and an AT-ST's guns will shred any BTech mech on a full charge (unless you'd seriously argue that their guns are inferior to the small hood gun on a Naboo speeder), so I'd say it's an even match. I think you also underestimate the importance of the fact that heavy infantry weapons like an E-Web can destroy a mech; the firepower disparity between the two sides is simply too great.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-21 12:44pm

If the stats are taken straight from the varying official sources and put in BTech, the AT-ST is a sub-par mech. Anything else that light is typically carrying missiles and jumpjets, though it does sport a nice range advantage. An AT-AT, frighteningly, is a king of the battlefield if it can keep it's flanks from being rushed. Seventeen klicks is devastating when your opponent is limited to 2 klick Gauss Rifles.

Of course, Juggernaughts are banned from local games. They weigh as much as dropships, yet outrun even a jumpjet assisted light mech.