White Star vs Defiant

[Connor MacLeod]

They never seem to be able to settle this on SB, so lets see if it can be settled on SD.net

[Darth Wong]

Slave-1 destroys them both

Seriously though, the Defiant was designed to hit giant Borg ships, and in battle with other ships it can't hit the side of a barn. Its accuracy is so bad that it was missing shots against the Lakota at a range of less than a km, and Sisko ordered his crew to close to within 500 metres to fire on JH cockroaches for a guaranteed kill in TDiC!

On the other hand, Whitestar firepower is probably lower than Defiant firepower. So it comes down to the Whitestar's limited firepower against the Defiant's poor accuracy

[Connor MacLeod]

Slave-1 destroys them both

I put that in there knowing you'd say that

Seriously though, the Defiant was designed to hit giant Borg ships, and in battle with other ships it can't hit the side of a barn. Its accuracy is so bad that it was missing shots against the Lakota at a range of less than a km, and Sisko ordered his crew to close to within 500 metres to fire on JH cockroaches for a guaranteed kill in TDiC!

Not to mention the sub-par firepower. IIRC they tend to have sub-kiloton weapons

On the other hand, Whitestar firepower is probably lower than Defiant firepower. So it comes down to the Whitestar's limited firepower against the Defiant's poor accuracy

Not bloody likely Brian's babteh estimates easily put it in the high GW low Tw range for low end figures and something like thousands of TWs at max-output (something like a 12,500 TW sustained upper limit - which was sustained for 30 seconds). My own estimates are more generous than this, but thats not really neccessary.

From most of the figures I see getting kicked around, it seems that a Fed starship, evne the Defiant, would be fortunate to toss out a few tens of TWs, or even hundreds.... and that includes torpedoes.

I say the defiant takes it.

[Ted C]

Personally, I'm not convinced that the Defiant has all that much firepower, either. I'm very conservative with Trek power figures, and still don't see much reason to credit them with power generation above the low terawatt range: they couldn't generate even one terawatt in "Dauphin", they were up to the "terawatt range" by "The Masterpiece Society" (presumably due to Geordi's modifications in "Booby Trap"), and a weapon equivalent to a 400 GW phaser slapped them silly in "The Survivors". The probably generates at least as much power as a Galaxy-class, but that still doesn't require more than a couple of terawatts.

Nor am I convinced that Federation targeting sensors will be a match for Minbari stealth technology, given that vast array of natural and artificial phenomena which cripple Federation sensors.

Is there any reason why these ships would be forced to fight? Given their vastly different methods of FTL propulsion, either one can easily avoid the other.

[Steve]

THOU HATH DEFILED MY SACRED DEBATE! HEATHEN!

Um..... sorry.


Errrrrr.......... the Defiant wins because I like it more. Which is as good a reason as any. 8)

[Darth Wong]

At least the Defiant has a metallic hull. Whitestar has a feeble organic hull. On the other hand, Defiant can't hit the side of a barn, but at least it has shields. I would say it's a tossup except that Defiant has torpedoes.

[Sir Sirius]

Nor am I convinced that Federation targeting sensors will be a match for Minbari stealth technology, given that vast array of natural and artificial phenomena which cripple Federation sensors.

The Mimbari stealth device doesn't make a ship invisible (EA was able to track the flyer in ACtA, just before the ambush). So I doubt that it would be of any use against ST sensors, all they'll need to track the Whitestar is a good camera and considering how distant targets they are able to see accurately on the viewscreen they do have good cameras.

How powerful are the quantum torpedoes of the Defiant? I've heard numbers from 128 megatons to 2 kilotons.

The Drala'fi got fragged by two 2 megaton nukes exploding at a distance and I don't think that a Whitestar could be several times tougher then a much larger Sharlin, at least in B5 :"No Surrender, No Retreat" Whitestar got crippled by a few hit's from an EA Omega.
Read Babtech's analysis of the ACtA Drala'fi nukes here and see a vid of the Whitestar getting bitch slapped by an Omega here (courtesy of Babtech as well).
So I do doubt the Whitestars ability to withstand quantum torpedo hits.

Oh, and do B5 ships have FTL sensors? If they don't the Picard manouver becomes viable.

[Darth Wong]

So I doubt that it would be of any use against ST sensors, all they'll need to track the Whitestar is a good camera and considering how distant targets they are able to see accurately on the viewscreen they do have good cameras.

Actually, the viewscreen seems to construct composite images of what it sees from optical cameras and what it picks up from its "subspace sensors", and it's difficult to tell how much it's using of both (for all we know, it's 100% subspace sensors). Recall "Peak Performance", where the viewscreen showed a Romulan warbird that wasn't actually there. Their inability to detect a ship hanging over a planetary system's lagrange point, for example, is clear proof that their detection via optical methods is sorely lacking.

How powerful are the quantum torpedoes of the Defiant? I've heard numbers from 128 megatons to 2 kilotons.

You've probably heard lots of things. But we're talking about torps which are only somewhat more powerful than photorps, and you'd need hundreds of photorps to destroy a 5km wide asteroid (ref: Pegasus). 128 megatons is a fan-wank number; nothing more.

The Drala'fi got fragged by two 2 megaton nukes exploding at a distance and I don't think that a Whitestar could be several times tougher then a much larger Sharlin, at least in B5 :"No Surrender, No Retreat" Whitestar got crippled by a few hit's from an EA Omega.
Read Babtech's analysis of the ACtA Drala'fi nukes here and see a vid of the Whitestar getting bitch slapped by an Omega here (courtesy of Babtech as well).
So I do doubt the Whitestars ability to withstand quantum torpedo hits.

I wouldn't expect it to withstand a direct hit either. However, I wouldn't expect it to take a direct hit.

Oh, and do B5 ships have FTL sensors? If they don't the Picard manouver becomes viable.

The Picard Maneuver is overrated. Oooh, so they jump a lot closer to the target ship. If the target ship is still moving and maneuvering (which Trek ships usually don't do in combat, but which a Whitestar does), they still aren't guaranteed of a hit, and the Whitestar to reacquire the target in seconds at most.

[Alyeska]

Slave-1 destroys them both

Seriously though, the Defiant was designed to hit giant Borg ships, and in battle with other ships it can't hit the side of a barn. Its accuracy is so bad that it was missing shots against the Lakota at a range of less than a km, and Sisko ordered his crew to close to within 500 metres to fire on JH cockroaches for a guaranteed kill in TDiC!

On the other hand, Whitestar firepower is probably lower than Defiant firepower. So it comes down to the Whitestar's limited firepower against the Defiant's poor accuracy

The only time the Defiant missed against the Lakota was when the ship itself rolled. That is a product of the PPCs being fixed axis, not poor accuracy.

The Defiant has both forward and rear torpedo launchers. It also has three beam phasers for use in combat. Whitestars IIRC have not demonstrated any rear weaponry. The Defiant can hit the Whitestar at any angle and with its PPCs it could drive off the Whitestar from attacking with its forward angle.

[Ted C]

The Mimbari stealth device doesn't make a ship invisible (EA was able to track the flyer in ACtA, just before the ambush). So I doubt that it would be of any use against ST sensors, all they'll need to track the Whitestar is a good camera and considering how distant targets they are able to see accurately on the viewscreen they do have good cameras.

Thanks to Mike for shooting that one down.

How powerful are the quantum torpedoes of the Defiant? I've heard numbers from 128 megatons to 2 kilotons.

And that one.

The Drala'fi got fragged by two 2 megaton nukes exploding at a distance and I don't think that a Whitestar could be several times tougher then a much larger Sharlin, at least in B5 :"No Surrender, No Retreat" Whitestar got crippled by a few hit's from an EA Omega.
Read Babtech's analysis of the ACtA Drala'fi nukes here and see a vid of the Whitestar getting bitch slapped by an Omega here (courtesy of Babtech as well).
So I do doubt the Whitestars ability to withstand quantum torpedo hits.

Actually, torpedoes are probably the best weapons against a White Star, since the Vorlon defense system doesn't help the ship resist "physical impact". Still, I rather doubt that the Defiant will be able to get a torpedo anywhere near the White Star.

Oh, and do B5 ships have FTL sensors? If they don't the Picard manouver becomes viable.

I believe they do, since they're known be be able to detect tachyons.

[Ted C]

At least the Defiant has a metallic hull. Whitestar has a feeble organic hull.

I realize you have issues with the concept of "super organic technology", but in practice, the hull of a Whitestar isn't "feeble". Whitestar hulls were enduring hits from Thirdspace Alien weapons that blew gaping holes in the inorganic hulls of Minbari warcruisers. They've also withstood direct hits from the pulse cannons of EarthForce Destroyers without serious damage ("No Retreat, No Surrender").

Against energy weapons, at least, Whitestar hulls are quite durable.

On the other hand, Defiant can't hit the side of a barn, but at least it has shields. I would say it's a tossup except that Defiant has torpedoes.

Federation shields which have trouble against a few hundred gigawatts of particle beam energy. By my estimates, the weapons on a Whitestar deliver about 40 terawatts.

As you have noted, even full spreads of Federation torpedoes can't release as much energy as chemical explosions of low-density gases in space ("Night Terrors" and "Insurrection").

[Alyeska]

As you have noted, even full spreads of Federation torpedoes can't release as much energy as chemical explosions of low-density gases in space ("Night Terrors" and "Insurrection").

Those were anything but low density pockets of gas. A real low density pocket would be invisible to the naked eye in sizes as depicted. You can only spot gasses in very large quantities because the light is sufficently bent around it. That was not your standard cloud of gas in Insurrection. In the case of Night Terrors it took specific reactions to blow them out of the rift. A torpedo produces mostly energy, and they already tried dumping lots of energy into the rift with no affect. It took an alternate type of explossion, even if it was a relatively low power one.

[SyntaxVorlon]

At least the Defiant has a metallic hull. Whitestar has a feeble organic hull. On the other hand, Defiant can't hit the side of a barn, but at least it has shields. I would say it's a tossup except that Defiant has torpedoes.

Wong, you have some how gotten it into your head that organic tech means squishy and soft like a newborn puppy. The armor on the whitestar is biomechanical, and absorbs most energy from energy weapons and only takes the impact of the physical and from what energy it can't absorb. I infered from this that the biological part was the 'brain' and learned from weapons fire how to deal with the energies involved.
Also do not get going on that shields jag, the Enterprise's shields were severely damaged in one ep, by 800 GW weapon fire, the Defiant is smaller and more manueverable but could not take much more than 10 TWs if that much. And once shields are gone on a feddie ship that ship is virtual toast.
A vote for the Whitestar.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Federation shields which have trouble against a few hundred gigawatts of particle beam energy. By my estimates, the weapons on a Whitestar deliver about 40 terawatts.

As you have noted, even full spreads of Federation torpedoes can't release as much energy as chemical explosions of low-density gases in space ("Night Terrors" and "Insurrection").

*CM braces him for massive flame attack*

From the ep. "The Survivors"

Worf : "Shields are down. Captain, they hit us with four hundred
gigawatts of particle energy!"
Picard : "Damage?"
Worf : "Superficial. But I am having trouble reassembling the shields."
[Vessel fires again]
Worf : "Shields down. There is thermal damage to the hull."
Data : "The warship is capable of striking us with far more powerful
bursts."

The only other time the Enterprise's shields were down without causing damage to the rest of the ship was when the Borg attacked the Enterprise with a shield draining weapon. Also, the ship survived being hit by higher weapon yields without their shields and the shields tend to be able to take much more damage than the hull. Odds are either the Husnock weapon can disrupt the shields or Kevin Uxbridge screwed around with the Enterprise's shields.

[Crossover_Maniac]

At least the Defiant has a metallic hull. Whitestar has a feeble organic hull. On the other hand, Defiant can't hit the side of a barn, but at least it has shields. I would say it's a tossup except that Defiant has torpedoes.

Wong, you have some how gotten it into your head that organic tech means squishy and soft like a newborn puppy.

It could be coral-hard but somewhat brittle.

[Darth Wong]

At least the Defiant has a metallic hull. Whitestar has a feeble organic hull. On the other hand, Defiant can't hit the side of a barn, but at least it has shields. I would say it's a tossup except that Defiant has torpedoes.

Wong, you have some how gotten it into your head that organic tech means squishy and soft like a newborn puppy.

Slight exaggeration, but organic tech is feeble. Do you know what organic compound performance in high-temperature or shock conditions is like?

The armor on the whitestar is biomechanical

That can work as long as the mechanical part is the part that takes all the punishment.

and absorbs most energy from energy weapons and only takes the impact of the physical and from what energy it can't absorb.

You could say the same thing about human skin. It's the quantity that matters; how much?

I infered from this that the biological part was the 'brain' and learned from weapons fire how to deal with the energies involved.

How do you "learn" to deal with it, if there's simply too much to deal with?

Also do not get going on that shields jag, the Enterprise's shields were severely damaged in one ep, by 800 GW weapon fire, the Defiant is smaller and more manueverable but could not take much more than 10 TWs if that much. And once shields are gone on a feddie ship that ship is virtual toast.

Fed shields are somewhat confusing; they appear to be capable of withstanding a great deal of solar radiation, but very little from other sources (in one case, ships which were soundly thrashing the Federation's top-of-the-line Enterprise-E were destroyed by a chemical incendiary explosion that did not even produce a significant shockwave in the soup-like cloud).

A vote for the Whitestar.

If Ted C's figures on its central weapon are correct, that may be entirely reasonable, assuming it scores the first hit. But I seriously doubt the Whitestar could withstand a barrage from the Defiant's weapons.

[Darth Wong]

Wong, you have some how gotten it into your head that organic tech means squishy and soft like a newborn puppy.

It could be coral-hard but somewhat brittle.

Compared to metal, it's a joke.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Nor am I convinced that Federation targeting sensors will be a match for Minbari stealth technology, given that vast array of natural and artificial phenomena which cripple Federation sensors.

The Mimbari stealth device doesn't make a ship invisible (EA was able to track the flyer in ACtA, just before the ambush). So I doubt that it would be of any use against ST sensors, all they'll need to track the Whitestar is a good camera and considering how distant targets they are able to see accurately on the viewscreen they do have good cameras.

How powerful are the quantum torpedoes of the Defiant? I've heard numbers from 128 megatons to 2 kilotons.

The Drala'fi got fragged by two 2 megaton nukes exploding at a distance and I don't think that a Whitestar could be several times tougher then a much larger Sharlin, at least in B5 :"No Surrender, No Retreat" Whitestar got crippled by a few hit's from an EA Omega.
Read Babtech's analysis of the ACtA Drala'fi nukes here and see a vid of the Whitestar getting bitch slapped by an Omega here (courtesy of Babtech as well).
So I do doubt the Whitestars ability to withstand quantum torpedo hits.

Oh, and do B5 ships have FTL sensors? If they don't the Picard manouver becomes viable.

Well, they end up going for manual targeting all the time in Trek. And they do fairly well at it too. Now granted, a typical Whitestar isn't going to sit still as much as most targets a Defiant would be facing. But this is going to be one battle that a Defiant could actually take. Well, until Slave-1 comes in and blows up the survivor, of course.

[Enlightenment]

The White Stars have no shields. This could be a fatal weakness if the captain of the Defiant has the intelligence to--for instance--beam the White Star's crew into space.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

At least the Defiant has a metallic hull. Whitestar has a feeble organic hull. On the other hand, Defiant can't hit the side of a barn, but at least it has shields. I would say it's a tossup except that Defiant has torpedoes.

Wong, you have some how gotten it into your head that organic tech means squishy and soft like a newborn puppy. The armor on the whitestar is biomechanical, and absorbs most energy from energy weapons and only takes the impact of the physical and from what energy it can't absorb. I infered from this that the biological part was the 'brain' and learned from weapons fire how to deal with the energies involved.
Also do not get going on that shields jag, the Enterprise's shields were severely damaged in one ep, by 800 GW weapon fire, the Defiant is smaller and more manueverable but could not take much more than 10 TWs if that much. And once shields are gone on a feddie ship that ship is virtual toast.
A vote for the Whitestar.

But could the Whitestar's armor absorb all the energy from the Defiant's pulse phasers or photon torpedoes? All that energy has to go somewhere. And remember, the Defiant is one of the few Starfleet ships that actually possesses armor. That armor has probably saved Sisko's skin on more than one occasion in the series.

[Enlightenment]

But could the Whitestar's armor absorb all the energy from the Defiant's pulse phasers or photon torpedoes? All that energy has to go somewhere.

Conservation of energy does not exist in the B5 universe. One of the magic armors (I can't remember if it's on the Sharlin, White Star or the Defeat classes) is capable of dropping %80 of the energy from an energy weapon down a black hole marked 'JMS' scientific illiteracy.'

[Crossover_Maniac]

Well, they end up going for manual targeting all the time in Trek. And they do fairly well at it too. Now granted, a typical Whitestar isn't going to sit still as much as most targets a Defiant would be facing. But this is going to be one battle that a Defiant could actually take. Well, until Slave-1 comes in and blows up the survivor, of course.

I have a theory that manuel targeting uses a ship's passive sensors for targeting. In "Redemption: Part 1" Worf aimed the ship's disruptors manually in order to keep the Klingon rebels from picking up the weapon's lock with their sensors.

[Darth Wong]

But could the Whitestar's armor absorb all the energy from the Defiant's pulse phasers or photon torpedoes? All that energy has to go somewhere.

Conservation of energy does not exist in the B5 universe. One of the magic armors (I can't remember if it's on the Sharlin, White Star or the Defeat classes) is capable of dropping %80 of the energy from an energy weapon down a black hole marked 'JMS' scientific illiteracy.'

I remember that! They called it "refractive" armour and it was on the Excalibur! ROTFLMAO!!! JMS actually put pen to paper and wrote that the armour refracts 80% of the energy! I guess he didn't realize that refraction, as opposed to reflection, actually requires penetration ...

[Darth Wong]

I have a theory that manuel targeting uses a ship's passive sensors for targeting. In "Redemption: Part 1" Worf aimed the ship's disruptors manually in order to keep the Klingon rebels from picking up the weapon's lock with their sensors.

That's not what "manual" means.

[Crossover_Maniac]

I have a theory that manuel targeting uses a ship's passive sensors for targeting. In "Redemption: Part 1" Worf aimed the ship's disruptors manually in order to keep the Klingon rebels from picking up the weapon's lock with their sensors.

That's not what "manual" means.

No, but the ship's automatic weapon targeting system probably uses active sensors.