[40k] Space Marines vs Stargrunts

[MKSheppard]

I also found this when I accidentally found that "40k vs Hogwarts" story.

For your information:

Ground Zero Games official site

Stargrunt II is a comprehensive set of generic rules for simulating science-fiction infantry combat in virtually any background. The system covers actions from a few squads up to full company level.
Rules are included for infantry, power armoured troops, AFVs, artillery and aerospace support and much more! The game is designed for use with 25mm scale miniatures, but will function equally well with 15mm or other scales.

This section contains information and downloads relating to Stargrunt II - a comprehensive set of generic rules for simulating science fiction infantry combat in virtually and background.

and:

Stargrunt with 40k

I am still using my tough ol' Space Marines, equipping them with Light Slow Power Armor and Advanced Assault Rifles. I figure the Terminators are Heavy Slow Power Armor and the Assault Marines are wearing Light Fast Power Armor. Moral of the story: So far it's more fun to fight WH40k battles with these rules than it is with the WH40k ones!

Stargrunt 40,000

That said, the story!:

---------------------------------------

Ground Zero

By TOM SULLIVAN

"Christ," whispered Pugh, "It looks like someone slapped a set of treads onto a dumpster!"

Kemmerman snorted his agreement. "And check out Buck Rogers there! Sticking his big, ugly ol' head outta the hatch, and not even bothering to stick a helmet on it! Think he's got a 'Shoot Me' sign on his back, too?"

"Cut it," snapped the sergeant, "We've got work to do here. Sorenson, have you got a lock yet?"

"Yessir," he replied, his gaze remaining fixed on the Scorpion's display. "Ready when you are, sir."

Nodding, the sergeant tapped at his com unit. "Jessup? You ready?" He nodded again at the reply. "All right then, on my mark...NOW!!"

There was a sudden sharp crack, and the enemy officer’s head vanished, replaced by a rapidly dispersing red mist. This sound was followed a heartbeat later with a loud "Crump!" as the Scorpion rocket penetrated the side of the APC. The vehicle skewed sideways, smoke and flame billowing from the hole in its side, as the second rocket hit, this time impacting at the rear.

The APC exploded with a satisfying roar, scattering pieces of men and metal across the field.

"That," Pugh said with feeling, "was abso-fuckin-lutely beautiful. You know that? That's a goddamn piece of art right there, Billy! You should get down there and sign it, you know?"

Sorenson shrugged as he repositioned himself, targeting the second APC. "It's eighty percent inspiration, ten percent perspiration, and one hundred and ten percent detonation, my man."

The APC shuddered, and obligingly lost a tread, as the rocket hit it.

"It's a damned good thing that you can shoot, buddy," Pugh said, 'cause you sure as shit can't add." He shook his head, waving at the men spilling out of the crippled vehicle. "Now look at that! Bright red armor? What are they, color-blind? Or just stupid?"

"Neither," interrupted the sergeant, "they're arrogant and very well armored. Now, shut up and shoot."

"Yessir," Pugh muttered, shouldering his rifle, "shooting away, sir. Doesn't seem to be doing much good, sir."

"When I want your opinion, Pugh, I'll be sure to tell you what it is, understand? Just keep firing. And Sorenson, wait for my command, dammit!"

The armored men seemed largely indifferent to the rifle fire, only a few even bothering to return it.

Miller shook his head as he sprayed bullets down the hill. "Jesus, what the fuck are they firing? Howitzers? Those are the biggest goddamn rifles I've ever seen!"

Pugh snorted. "Yeah, but do think they can actually hit anything with 'em? Might as well just throw the damned things at us for all the good they're doing!" He yelped, jerking back as a crater was blasted into the ground a foot away from his head. "Yeah, yeah...fuck you too, Murphy!"

"You know," Pugh noted after a moment, "they really don't seem very happy, sir. In fact," he added, as he changed clips, "they seem downright pissed. Sir."

The sergant ignored him. "Jessup? There's a guy down there with a very big gun. Yeah, the one painted yellow. Eliminate him for me, would you?"

There was a flash, a bang, and one of the men at the bottom of thehill collapsed, a neat little hole visible in the side of his helmet. Pugh made an approving noise. "Very nice, Jessup! You and Sorenson, you're like the...the..Boticellis of the battlefield, you know? Fuckin' artistes, I tell ya!"

“‘Boticellis of the battlefield’, Pugh? What are you on, anyway?”

“It’s called culture, buddy. Give it a try sometime. You’ll like eating with a fork, I just know it!”

"Um, sir?" Miller said, abruptly, "Sir? They appear to be charging, sir. Up the hill, sir."

"Yeah," the sergant replied with satisfaction, "Yeah, they certainly are, aren't they? The big bastards are nothing if not predictable. Just keep firing, private. Williams, Cook? Be ready."

"My God," Pugh marveled, "the guy in front has a sword! A goddamn sword! What’s in his other pocket, a flint fucking spear?"

They did, he had to admit to himself, certainly look impressive. Each stood at least seven feel tall, and their brilliant red armor made them look even bigger. "Kind of a shame they're such morons," he muttered.

Two of the charging men fell, neither making it even halfway up the hill, but the remaining seven kept coming, firing, apparently at random,as they did.

"Now!" the sergant shouted. "Now, dammit!"

The man in the lead, the one waving the sword, was cut almost in half by the incoming plasma bolt. Those behind him stopped sort, caught in the crossfire as William's and Cook's squads opened fire. Sorenson fired the Scorpion, catching one man squarely in the center of his chest. The result was, while interesting, far from pretty.
The concentrated fire of fifteen men proved sufficient. Almost. Only one man made it to the top of the hill, his armor cracked and pitted with innumerable bullet holes. Moving with remarkable speed for such a large man, he surged forward, grabbing the sergant by the throat before the rest of the squad could react.

"Now," the man rasped, his voice distorted by his helmet, "you shall die, in the Emperor's...."

*BLAM*

He stopped.

Looked down.

Saw the smoke rising from the barrel of the pistol pressed firmly against his stomach.

And fell, gently, to the ground.

The sergant stepped back, rubbing gingerly at his throat. "He was a tough bastard, I'll give him that much," he said, hoarsely. He prodded at the corpse with his toe, dislodging the man's helmet with a sudden fierce kick.

"Jesus, what did they do?" asked Pugh, "Shave an ape?" The man's features were grotesquely exaggerated, almost to the point of caricature.

"That," said the sergant, "is what happens when you combine several centuries of extensive genetic and bionic engineering with being raised from birth to worship an immortal psychopath. Makes you understand the Promixa Covenant, doesn't it?" He sighed. "Stupid goddamned fanatics. They think they entire universe should play by their rules. Well, fuck that. We're gonna show 'em how a war is supposed to be fought. Space Marines, my ass!" He kicked the corpse again, not gently. "How do you like life at ground zero, asshole?"

[Shroom Man 777]

You're just sore that you got owned in DoW (admittedly, I suck also).

The Space Marines would've wasted them from range. SMs aren't inaccurate, you know. They are well trained and superhuman, if insane.

[NecronLord]

As for how effective they'd be, that would, I expect, depend on you know, non-game information on what the marines are fighting.

[The Dark]

By the way, if you poke around the GZG site, the full rules for Dirtside II are available.

[white_rabbit]

While that little stargrunt fanfic is reasonably amusing, even though it appears every odd year, it'd be interesting one of these days to see if there is any actual hard info on stargrunt. So we could see what would happen if the heavy weapon troopers didn't conveniantly get sniped, or if the Rhinos had hunter killers..etc etc.

[Ford Prefect]

That was some amusingly viruently anti-Space Marine shit right there. I mean ... "Yeah, but do think they can actually hit anything with 'em?". Where the hell does that come from? And damn, is Pugh's pistol something like ten or twenty times more power than his soldiers' rifle?

[Hawkwings]

Pistol shot to the gut kills him? The SM should have laughed and chainsworded that guy several new orifices. Unless the SM was an artiste and flayed the guy alive. Then inverted his face with a pistol-whip.

Apparently the sniper rifle and the pistol are somewhere around exitus weapon power levels, while the rifles are hellgun power level?

[NoXion]

Exactly who are the Space Marines fighting against? And that story made me cringe.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Stargrunt is, as MKSheppard says in the OP, a wargame. It can be genericised, but the in game background is basically Nation-States In Space- the timeline goes up to 2194-odd.

The major players are the New Anglian Confederation (around 2050, America collapses in civil war and gets reabsorbed by the Crown- what do you expect from a game designer who lives in Suffolk?);
and the russo-chinese Eurasian Solar Union- main rival, and by First Contact in 2183, the NAC and ESU have been fighting a back-and-forth, inconclusive war for eighteen years.
Two semi-major powers about half to two thirds the size of the biggies, the german/scandinavian Neu Swabian League and the french/italian/spanish/etc Federal Staats Europa. Then a whole horde of minor powers like the Pan African Union, Indonesian Federation, League of Latin American Republics-etc.

Balkanised as all hell, lots of brushfire wars, lots of variety. The Tsukada-Krensberg Drive makes it easy to plant small colonies but hard to shift enough for there to be many major outworlds; warships range from 800 to 30,000 tons, freighters not much larger.
There is no 'killer app'; vehicle energy weapons exist, but old style chemical arms, or advanced versions like the New Anglian L7A3 4mm binary liquid propellant rifle, are about all that's man-portable. Only the FSE gives it's troopers- of La Legion Etrangere, of course- gauss rifles.

This bunch sound like NAC Royal Marines, from a unit raised in the depths of the American Provinces, or possibly Free Cal-Tex. The rules are available for free download anyway, I don't want to go too deep into mechanics, but the point is the rules were written to try to enforce something like realistic tactics.

Weapon ranges are determined by the quality of the troops using them; the better you are, the further you can shoot- elites beat untrained by three to one, novice by two to one.
The lethality of fire is low, it's far more common to drive your opponents to cover, but the effect of solid hits when you do get them is high. On average, most of the troopers on the table will be hiding behind something. Tactical leadership is critical- a unit that consistently fails to unsuppress gets grenaded to bits sooner or later.
The story is basically a dig at the Astartes' willingness to stand out and be shot.

In terms of the hardware, a hit from a standard infantry weapon- Advanced Combat Rifle like the L7A3- on an unarmoured human will leave him fit to fight on 15% of the time, severely hurt and out of it 25% of the time, and dead 60% of the time. I'd expect a bolter to be more lethal. Against a man, never mind a gene-hacked superman, in Astartes armour, (or the equivalent as rated here), the odds change to 46% intact, 30% wounded, 24% dead. An autopistol is less likely to hit than an ACR but gets the same lethality when it does.
Hope that helps.

[RazorOutlaw]

Yeah the story is pretty critical of Space Marines, but given the way Space Marines act in combat it's not too hard to make them do the most stupid thing possible. Which is another problem with versus stories, you can make the side you DON'T like (or don't like as much) act like blithering idiots to falsey demonstrate how your preferred side is going to win.

But while it's lopsided it also points out a few things I found interesting (and have overlooked ever since basically)

In my reading of W40k, I initially found it very hard to belief that the Emperor's Finest also seemed to be His most tactically stupid. Art work, stories, and even people just talking about the Adeptus Astartes showed them to be the kind of force that thought standing out in the middle of a battle was a good idea. Dawn of War's intro showed Blood Raven (Angels?) disregarding cover to charge uphill at a bunch of Orks. The brightly colored armor, as the story points out, is also pretty stupid. Few of the Chapters that I've seen have the right color for certain terrains (Raven Guard might be good for a forest mission at least, White Scars can fight in winter/snow conditions) while the rest are white, yellow, red or just plain "shoot me I'm here".

Overtime I accepted that it was due to the nature of the Imperium's enemies that the Space Marines were 1) wanktastic and 2) tactically odd. Orks can survive bullet wounds like nobodies business, Tyranids just keep coming, Eldar are swift enough to stay out of the way, Chaos doesn't give shit. For all the power levels that the SM's can reach with their weapons and abilities, their enemies aren't far behind. Perhaps as a last ditch resort, hand-to-hand combat isn't so bad. But that doesn't change the fact that nearly all Space Marine hardware is bulky and an obvious target (the Land Raider's profiles are huge). People say that the armor is just so strong...

Yet that wouldn't excuse the obviousness of how bad of an idea it is to charge an enemy position or to build such large vehicels. For all I hear about how Astartes armor is uber-strong, I've read stories were Eldar spears or Tyranid claws pierce SM armor. I figure either the armor's strength is exagerrated or Tyranids and Eldar are exceptionally strong to be able to do that. So if SM's are capable of being killed that easily, why would they continue to charge headlong into the enemy?

I suppose my confusion here lies in the way the fluff lays them out. In some stories I've read about Space Marines making tactical retreats to weather the enemy's numbers down while in others I've read about them charging into battle. There's such an inconsistency here that gives non-fans, like Sullivan here, a chance to dig their claws in.

[Elheru Aran]

Adeptus Astartes ceramite power armour *is* simply insanely strong. Their enemies, on the other hand, do also have extremely powerful and/or sharp weapons. There's plenty of evidence to show that even common humans in 40K are somewhat stronger than modern humans. Also, as far as their paint schemes go, sensor equipment and even organic senses like the Tyranids have, are powerful enough that Astartes stand out like sore thumbs, camo or not. Humans have kind of a chance (i.e. the Guard) that they get to use some camouflage, but Marines can't really help it, so they don't bother.

And the fluff is inconsistent? You don't say

In-universe: the Astartes have no problem with tactical retreats; it is, after all, better to live for the Emperor today, kick them in the nuts tomorrow from a better tactical posture. Of course, that's leaving alone the crazy-nuts Chapters like the Black Templars or the Blood Angels...

[white_rabbit]

Art work, stories, and even people just talking about the Adeptus Astartes showed them to be the kind of force that thought standing out in the middle of a battle was a good idea

A lot of the artwork is basically setpiece glorification of the concepts, and interestingly its often labelled as artwork inuniverse, i.e. Glorious Lord General Arsekicker slaughtering the Foul Xenos on Baracum IX.

It is true that some of the SM chapters literally do go overboard on the bling, but then again they are meant to be the literal incarnation of shock and awe bred with lightning fast violence. (as well as out of universe the big newbie army, is it any wonder they are so prominent in artwork ?)

Dawn of War's intro showed Blood Raven (Angels?) disregarding cover to charge uphill at a bunch of Orks.

Yeah, the intro is pretty daft once you think about it, instead of being doolally over a new and cool looking 40k game. I think the best part is how nobody actually kills anything at anything more than about a meters range, gun or otherwise.

The brightly colored armor, as the story points out, is also pretty stupid.

See above for the inuniverse disclaimers, although I will note that marines do use camoflage, but its often disdained because they really are pretty damn resilient, and attack fast and hard.

Plus, in 40k theres a lot of widely available sensor tech, and lots of big guns.

If they get stuck somewhere, they do change the paint schemes, but wham bam thankyou mam just isn't worth it apparently.

unless they are like the Red Scorpions, who are just elitist pricks.

Perhaps as a last ditch resort, hand-to-hand combat isn't so bad. But that doesn't change the fact that nearly all Space Marine hardware is bulky and an obvious target (the Land Raider's profiles are huge). People say that the armor is just so strong...

The general gist inuniverse is that the marines play to their strengths, mobile, elite heavy infantry, with fast, but well armed and armoured armour support.

The Imperial armour books give some idea of their doctrine in urban environments, Assault squads,to take a much disliked aspect of 40k, i.e. close combat, operate in conjunction with tank/tac squad support, almost like cavalry, go in and fuck everyone up while they are keeping their heads down due to supressing fire.

Either that, or a Vindicator slams a few siege shells into the building, and the infantry stomps on the rubble.

For all I hear about how Astartes armor is uber-strong, I've read stories were Eldar spears or Tyranid claws pierce SM armor. I figure either the armor's strength is exagerrated or Tyranids and Eldar are exceptionally strong to be able to do that.

Nids ARE bloody strong, their "cannonfodder" units can rip through steel doors several inches thing!

Eldar "spears" are usually energised power weapons, either technological or "magical", for eldar the line is slightly blurred. If your bog standard eldar squad leader tried that, he'd get his face pushed in real quick.

I suppose my confusion here lies in the way the fluff lays them out. In some stories I've read about Space Marines making tactical retreats to weather the enemy's numbers down while in others I've read about them charging into battle. There's such an inconsistency here that gives non-fans, like Sullivan here, a chance to dig their claws in.

The better the author, the lmore consistent the portrayal. Most information, both background text and novels paints a picture of very competant, well equipped super soldiers, with a slight tendancy to zealotry and somewhat odd tactics, and a fair bit of arrogant disdain for mere mortals in the lower ranks.

Officers and Veterans are usually portrayed as knowing better, while line brothers sometimes come across as complete arseholes.

I'd recommend "Brothers of the Snake" by Dan Abnett for a good look at some character space marines, as well as the Space Wolf books by Bill King.

When you can cover three acres of ground 7 deep with ork corpses with only bolters, chainswords and lances, you can play with the Iron Snakes!

[GunDoctor]

Ok, I think I can see where the disconect is here for some. Unlike other properties, like say Star Wars, or Honor Harrington, WH40k exists primarily as a game. Specificaly as a tabletop miniatures war game.

As such, it is a fairly bad wargame, with clunky rules, and miniatures designed to appeal to 12 year olds with no fucking clue what a real battlefield would look like. Not only are the rules fairly chart-tastic, they are specificaly designed to emphasise close combat as the means of descision. The developers themselves have explained that the main historical influence for the feel of the universe, from backstory to visual design to the flow of the rules is the 30 years war.

Those of us who came across the 40k universe as a war game, see it as such first. The fluff is there to explain the game, not the other way around. Fluff is true when it agrees with the tabletop, and false when contradictory. Thus, Space Marines ARE idiotic apes who charge when they should lay down fire. Because that's the only way you can win on the table top. Effective ranges are, by groundscale, measured in feet, and not many of them either. By the time you're in range to shoot, you might as well charge, because if you don't the other guy will, and then HE gets the charge bonus.

Now I agree with the gentleman whom MKSheppard quotes, most wargamers who would rather play an exacting game of say Advanced Squad Leader rather than Dawn of War, find that playing WH40k with SGII is vastly more fun because the rules flow much easier, and they reward the use of real tactics and punish those who leave cover to charge emplaced infantry.

Which explains the VS story as being not so much anti space marine so much as being anti-bad wargamer/anti-bad wargame.

And oh yes, if the idea of moving painted toy soldiers around a tabletop covered in scale terrain and driving enemy toy soldiers before you, and hering the lamentations of their toy soldier women sound appealing to you, then Star Grunt II is an exellent engine to use. It also links in with a micro armour rules set; Dirt Side II, and a Star Ship rules set; Full Thrust (II?). I heartily recomend them all. Support is kinda iffy, as the whole thing is a garage operation, and casting miniatures takes most their time. Eventually Jon Tuffley is supposed to bring out the third generation of rules sets (including a new skirmish rules set, and aliens rules for SG) but that's starting to look like vapour-ware.

[NoXion]

GunDoctor wrote:
Those of us who came across the 40k universe as a war game, see it as such first. The fluff is there to explain the game, not the other way around. Fluff is true when it agrees with the tabletop, and false when contradictory. Thus, Space Marines ARE idiotic apes who charge when they should lay down fire.

Except that it doesn't work that way, making the story lame. In 40k canon, fluff overrides the rules, which are an abstraction anyway (probably due to the fact that games have to be balanced). I was under the impression it was extremely bad form (if not outright wrong) to base vs scenarios off of game mechanics.

[Ford Prefect]

Actually, by all acounts the game is there to represent the story, not the other way round. In the designer's notes for Codex: Daemonhunters, they talked about how they tried to write the Codex so that it would encourage thinking about the story behind the game you're playing.

In fact, anyone with a cursory knowledge of Gamesworkshop would realise that the background fluff is highly important - they write whole swathes of it and encourage others to write it too. They ackowledge that what happens in the game is merely an abstraction of what actually happens.

[RazorOutlaw]

A lot of the artwork is basically setpiece glorification of the concepts, and interestingly its often labelled as artwork inuniverse, i.e. Glorious Lord General Arsekicker slaughtering the Foul Xenos on Baracum IX.

It is true that some of the SM chapters literally do go overboard on the bling, but then again they are meant to be the literal incarnation of shock and awe bred with lightning fast violence. (as well as out of universe the big newbie army, is it any wonder they are so prominent in artwork ?)

***

See above for the inuniverse disclaimers, although I will note that marines do use camoflage, but its often disdained because they really are pretty damn resilient, and attack fast and hard.

Plus, in 40k theres a lot of widely available sensor tech, and lots of big guns.

If they get stuck somewhere, they do change the paint schemes, but wham bam thankyou mam just isn't worth it apparently.

I'm starting to formulate the idea in my mind, and perhaps it's been stated already, that realistically (or maybe MORE realistically considering the wank) the Space Marines are more shock troops than "first to fight". Personally I would not want such large targets to either occupy an area for long or to be the main force. In universe an entrenched Eldar position could "realistically" cut a charging Marine squad down.

Ideally one would have the Guard engage and have the Space Marines come down in or behind enemy positions. As you mention, the Marines play to their strengths. Highly mobile, fast, and with heavy armor. Like cavalry of ancient times they might be better suited flanking and surprise than tactically assaulting a position.

I wonder what the Space Marines would do against an Imperial Guard army that acted like the Stargrunts?

The Imperial armour books give some idea of their doctrine in urban environments, Assault squads,to take a much disliked aspect of 40k, i.e. close combat, operate in conjunction with tank/tac squad support, almost like cavalry, go in and fuck everyone up while they are keeping their heads down due to supressing fire.

Well, that would be combat doctrine for the Guard right and how the Space Marines work in conjunction with them?

Unlike other properties, like say Star Wars, or Honor Harrington, WH40k exists primarily as a game. Specificaly as a tabletop miniatures war game.

Star Wars showed their Imperial Shock Troops to be anything but shining example of competence. Rather it was from the fluff and a bit of critical thinking that anybody determined that they were actually very well equipped troops with high levels of competence. Now out of ignorance and a lack of references (maybe buying into the wank too?) I have two seperate ideas of how the Space Marines act in a given situation. Either they act like bloody morons as the story shows or bloody powerful morons who charge sometimes and use ranged fire most of the time. For a while I figured that their armor would allow them to do both, and not having an in-universe reference to a force that doesn't find hand-to-hand combat an option I sometimes figured that their tactics were sound given the technology. All the same it niggled the back of my mind that their tactics were stupid based on everything I've read about modern combat.

I see people like Connor on these forums quantifying aspects of the Warhammer 40k universe, and I like it. I suppose I want to see how they would stack-up against forces as shown in Stargrunts and how they'd realistically respond (if that's at all possible).

[RazorOutlaw]

Ghetto Edit:

Thus, Space Marines ARE idiotic apes who charge when they should lay down fire. Because that's the only way you can win on the table top. Effective ranges are, by groundscale, measured in feet, and not many of them either. By the time you're in range to shoot, you might as well charge, because if you don't the other guy will, and then HE gets the charge bonus.

Considering what others have said regarding fluff vs. game, if the story is comparing the games themselves then that's not so much of a worry to me.

But as far as I know the fluff is more of how things really work. That'd be pretty crappy if it worked the other way around, imo. I'd have a hard time digesting anything if, say, Warcraft 2's system of gathering resources and building armies is how it actually worked in-universe.

[Shroom Man 777]

If we base it on game mechanics, then Space Marines would be two inch tall bits of itsy bitsy plastic. Fuck game mechanics.

[NecronLord]

Space Marines do not charge except where it's particularly advantageous to do so. The current edition of Warhammer 40,000 specifically altered the rules because "the iconic image of a Space Marine is legs braced, firing from the hip, not charging into combat." That's an outright declaration that previous games have depicted them on the tabletop incorrectly, and that Space Marine infantry generally function as super-riflemen. To correct this, they actually changed a core rule of the game to make space marines act more like the moderately sophisticated super-soldiers they're meant to be.


And for the record, when you talk about an Eldar Spear, you're talking about something eight or nine feet long, with a three foot unobtanium blade with a near-monomolecular edge, which is surrounded in an energy field capable of letting it slice through solid tungsten as though it were the proverbial hot knife through butter.

That's the basic one. We're not even moving on to discuss things like the eldar spears used by the higher ups, which are actually self-propelled weapons that can spin around and gut a person so there's nothing left from collarbones to hips.


As for camoflage; They're not above adopting it when they think it advantageous. The oft-dodgy Imperial Armour shows Marine vehicles in camoflage patterns, for example. However, it's pointless for most of their units under most circumstances; Scouts frequently are camoflaged; chamelioline cloaks and all, but the others aren't, because they're in armour that lights up infrared like a christmas tree, toting around plasma weapons that glow eerily, and yes, waving swords with elecricity arcing off them.

The Imperium's forces use camoflage where appropriate, but Space Marines are generally at a point, much like the eldar, where visual camoflage is best accomplished by distracting the enemy with decoys (Holofields!), not with a lick of paint that'll do sod all to disguise the hugeness and RAWR of the miniature atomic reactors they're all lugging around on their backs.


The Imperium's vehicles, on the other hand, are just plain crazy designs, and are meant to be such in-universe.

[Jaevric]

Space Marine tactics are very much reliant on their equipment, and of course vary wildly from Chapter to Chapter. Part of the reason Space Marines favor charging the enemy is that their armor is strong enough to allow them to do so, and the morale effect on most enemies is quite noticeable. It is rather disconcerting to see someone half again your size shrugging off small arms fire from an entire squad of your buddies while waving a sword. The degree to which this tactic is favored varies wildly from one chapter to another.

The Black Templars, for example, indeed favor the 'scream and charge waving swords' approach. To the extent that a leadership failure when playing the Templars causes your troops to charge whether you want them to or not, I'm given to understand. They also don't believe in tactical retreats under any circumstances.

The Space Wolves are also often accused of being crazed barbarians who favor melee combat, and that much is true--to an extent. Even they, however, have specialists in ranged combat and use them heavily to support assault troops. The Space Wolves also have the excuse of the fact that their assault teams, the Blood Claws, are young and due to the effects of the Space Wolf geneseed almost hyperaggressive. They're going to scream and charge the enemy whether their commanders want them to or not--so the Space Wolves take advantage of that tendency. Their "mature" troops, the Grey Hunters, use ranged weapons much more proficiently and as a matter of course, while their oldest and most experienced troops, called Long Fangs, favor heavy support weapons and rarely close to melee. And even Blood Fangs, once they've been around a while, are smart enough to call in fire support on a sufficiently fortified position rather than simply rush at it waving their chainswords. For that matter, they carry and use profligately grenades in order to further weaken defensive positions before assaulting them.

The Ultramarines, on the other hand, only 'scream and charge' when the Codex Astartes tells them it's appropriate to the situation.

The Dark Angels favor manuever combat and shock tactics, hence the mutual distaste between the Primarchs of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves--the Dark Angels Primarch Lion El'Jonson (sp?) felt that Leman Russ of the Space Wolves was an idiot, while Leman Russ considered Lion El'Jonson a skulking pansy.

In the fanfic from the op, for example, the StarGrunts were in pretty much an ideal situation for ambushing a Space Marine chapter that evidently favors melee combat. If they'd been dealing with the Raven Guard--which favors jumppack-equipped assault troops--they would've been screwed when a double-handful of Space Marines with bolt pistols, chainswords, and the occasional lightning claw dropped right on top of their position and got it stuck in. A Long Fangs pack from the Space Wolves would have hosed their position down with heavy bolter and missile fire. Even a Blood Claws pack would have had the sense to lob grenades up into the position before charging it. And as other people have said, the assumption that Space Marines can't shoot is simply wrong.

[Tasoth]

Don't forget that the Blood Angels(is that the name?) also fall into a blood lust thanks to a certain daemons curse and will charge if they've been in a fight for too long.

[white_rabbit]

the Space Marines are more shock troops than "first to fight". Personally I would not want such large targets to either occupy an area for long or to be the main force. In universe an entrenched Eldar position could "realistically" cut a charging Marine squad down.

Marines are " first to fight" in the sense that they have lots of equipment organic to their formations, air and orbital transport/weapons support, heavy armour (although not tremendously heavy given the superheavy vehicles of the Guard and Ad Mech) etc.

Their interstellar transport is also among the fastest and most reliable in the Imperium.

So they are very useful for getting some rock hard troops into position quickly.

If they get bogged down in combat against vast odds, like several millions of orks in the middle of a civil war, its desperate last stand time (Go read Brotherhood of the Snake by Dan Abnett)

"entrenched Eldar positions" are also a rarity

Ideally one would have the Guard engage and have the Space Marines come down in or behind enemy positions. As you mention, the Marines play to their strengths. Highly mobile, fast, and with heavy armor. Like cavalry of ancient times they might be better suited flanking and surprise than tactically assaulting a position.

YOu can pretty much find Marines fighting in any fashion, and using the full range of equipment they can get their hands on. The latest Imperial Armour book gives an interesting example where the Dark Angels turn up, fuck up and destroy a vital enemy strategic position, then leave without ever having actually "spoken" to the Guard Commanders planetside.

I wonder what the Space Marines would do against an Imperial Guard army that acted like the Stargrunts?

Well, its a little difficult to expand an APC and a squad into an army scale engagement, but depending on the resources of the Imperium, it could be anything from artillery and air strike supported multi-pronged assaults, to a Strike cruiser blasting the position into a crater, while the marines go a mop up.

Well, that would be combat doctrine for the Guard right and how the Space Marines work in conjunction with them?

Again, it could range from " hey, did some giant blue guys just fly in and fuck that enemy position up ? COOL! ADVANCE MEN!" all the way to the Guard standing shoulder to shoulder with marines while the oncoming tide of nasties attack their fortified bunker.

A good general concept is that the marines get called in to crack the nuts which need cracking right the hell now, and the guard handles the rest, including cracking hard nuts which don't need to get smashed quite so quickly.

[GunDoctor]

Actually, by all acounts the game is there to represent the story, not the other way round. In the designer's notes for Codex: Daemonhunters, they talked about how they tried to write the Codex so that it would encourage thinking about the story behind the game you're playing.

In fact, anyone with a cursory knowledge of Gamesworkshop would realise that the background fluff is highly important - they write whole swathes of it and encourage others to write it too. They ackowledge that what happens in the game is merely an abstraction of what actually happens.

Well I had a long reply to that, but my $Q%$% browser crapped out and lost it. Long story short, I am VERY familiar with GW, I own ALL versions of WH40k, and most of the supplements. Untill or unless weapons ranges change on the tabletop, the armies of the 41st millenium give their enemies a volley and then charge. Thats how the game works, nothing the fluff says can change that. I'm not saying the fluff sucks (ok, i'm not saying all of it does) I'm just saying for a Wargamer, the game comes first. Any attempt to reconcile the tabletop with the fluff, or 40k tactics to real life ass rapes the SoD.

[Academia Nut]

Except for the fact that GW has explicitly said that the fluff trumps the game and the fluff shows long range confrontations and the like. Plus you can even see the whole abstraction thing just by reading through the rulebooks. Each turn seems to represent several hours worth of time, so I have no trouble with the ranges in game if the size of the models and the engagement ranges are in fact not to the same scale. If we accept that size and time scales are significantly larger than might be initially estimated, then the reason 40k armies always get into assaults is not because they are eager to engage hand to hand but because it represents an abstraction of vicious fighting at very close range, more like squads of soldiers in house-to-house combat than the stand up melee warfare most people think of it as. An expansion of time also helps to explain why you can have small numbers of soldiers completely wipe out much larger units in assault when one side loses the assault, fails a leadership test, and then loses the sweeping advance. It represents several hours worth of fighting and the complete rout of the unit. Hell, a single dreadnought can wipe out fifty guys in a single turn if he hits a full sized conscript platoon and gets lucky on the sweeping advance.

[Imperial Overlord]

GunDoctor, I can see why as a table top gamer the way the table top rules is more important to you than the fluff, but GW has stated the rules are an abstraction that don't really represent the performance of 40k armies since the beginning of the game. The purpose of the rules is to allow everyone field their army and play with their toys. Hell, the very fact that you can field a C'tan or a greater daemon in a skirmish involving a few dozen guys on either side and not automatically win should make this obvious. The fluff has always been the more accurate representation of the universe. Whether or not you care more about the fluff or the table top rules is another matter.