Fulgrim: Visions of Treachery (spoilers)

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2007-06-23 10:55am

Just nabbed my copy from WHSmiths, just looking through the Dramatis Personae is making me look forward to it. A certain Farseer is apparently going to be making an appearance, heh.

It's around 100 pages longer than the previous HH books, around 510 pages.

Oh yes, just in case I forget to say it: Dan Abnett has been signed up to write the seventh book called Legion which will focus on the Alpha Legion and Imperial Army.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-23 11:55am

Got a signed one a month or so ago, at Conflict North.

Poor Fulgrim. You thought the Emperor got shafted.

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2007-06-23 12:04pm

NecronLord wrote:Got a signed one a month or so ago, at Conflict North.

Poor Fulgrim. You thought the Emperor got shafted.

It's a good read then?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-23 12:08pm

Even though it's from McNiell, King of Hyperboletopia, it is far superior to the previous books.

Azazal · Post by **Azazal** » 2007-06-23 01:06pm

God Damn-it!! Still waiting for it to show up here.

Also, with the popularity of the series, why won't GW get off their collective asses and make a codex for the Great Crusade/Heresy

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-23 01:18pm

Azazal wrote:Also, with the popularity of the series, why won't GW get off their collective asses and make a codex for the Great Crusade/Heresy

Because that'd require making an entirely different game, with many entirely new units...

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2007-06-23 02:27pm

NecronLord wrote:Got a signed one a month or so ago, at Conflict North.

Poor Fulgrim. You thought the Emperor got shafted.

More or less tragic than Magnus?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-23 03:12pm

Falkenhayn wrote:More or less tragic than Magnus?

More.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2007-06-23 05:11pm

Azazal wrote:Also, with the popularity of the series, why won't GW get off their collective asses and make a codex for the Great Crusade/Heresy

Because they barely support the games they have now? And the bean counters wouldn't be keen on the investment after the Lord of the Rings has gone downhill on them.

If Specialist Games weren't all but cut adrift we might see something there. As it is the likelihood of a Horus Heresy miniatures game is pretty low.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2007-06-25 04:29am

Damn straight about Specialist Games. What does it take to get a little love for Battlefleet Gothic? I know they've made a cast and a mold for the Mars Pattern battlecruisers, so when will they see the light of day? Same thing for the Endeavour light cruisers. I'd rather have my new spaceships than some vanilla space marines with new helmets, but a Horus Heresy line would still be nice.
Anyway, enough of that rant.

You lucky Brits get these books at least a month before I'll ever see them. I'm still waiting on Brothers of the Snake. And that's a hell of a review from Necronlord.

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2007-06-25 01:37pm

Having just finished....

Wow. brilliant book. Fulgrims and the Emperors Children transformation from a bunch of peacocks into a bunch of bonkers peacocks is great - and it carefully ties into the other books as well -Similar to how Eisenstein had similar scenes from different perspectives. it was also good to read about the various Primarchs that often don't get much of a look in as well -Corax and Vulkan in particular.

It certainly warrants the extra 100 pages.

The Dropsite Massacre felt slightly short though, although that's possibly because Ambushes tend to be short. AND, the big thing that'll annoy many people: The Mystery Of Ferrus Mannus's Death is finally laid to rest.

Good book 9/10

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-25 02:16pm

Dartzap wrote:The Dropsite Massacre felt slightly short though, although that's possibly because Ambushes tend to be short. AND, the big thing that'll annoy many people: The Mystery Of Ferrus Mannus's Death is finally laid to rest.

That was in the last Horus Heresy artbook. The bit where the artist formerly known as Fulgrim presents his 'gift' to Horus is a direct reprint of that.

Also, for future books, the demon possessing Fulgrim eventually warps his body into a four armed snakey semblance of the aliens they fight at the beginning of the book too....

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2007-06-26 01:09pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Damn straight about Specialist Games. What does it take to get a little love for Battlefleet Gothic? I know they've made a cast and a mold for the Mars Pattern battlecruisers, so when will they see the light of day? Same thing for the Endeavour light cruisers. I'd rather have my new spaceships than some vanilla space marines with new helmets, but a Horus Heresy line would still be nice.
Anyway, enough of that rant.

You lucky Brits get these books at least a month before I'll ever see them. I'm still waiting on Brothers of the Snake. And that's a hell of a review from Necronlord.

GW is releasing an Ad-Mech Fleet. So far they've got models for a Battleship, a Cruiser and an Escort, that we know of. The rules should be out some time around August.

And I echo the "Damn You Britain" sentiment.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-26 02:59pm

Falkenhayn wrote:GW is releasing an Ad-Mech Fleet. So far they've got models for a Battleship, a Cruiser and an Escort, that we know of. The rules should be out some time around August.

And I echo the "Damn You Britain" sentiment.

Oooh Oooh. I'm excited.

I guess it won't be as twinked out as the Explorator ship Arkham Land that was talked about long ago though.

*Plunks Battleship on the table*

"There's my fleet."

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2007-06-26 10:31pm

I'd be happy with 25 cm movement, 90 Turns, 6+ Armor and Repulsive level firepower at 60 cm that hits Bombardment Cannon style.

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » 2007-06-27 04:11am

NecronLord wrote:
Dartzap wrote:The Dropsite Massacre felt slightly short though, although that's possibly because Ambushes tend to be short. AND, the big thing that'll annoy many people: The Mystery Of Ferrus Mannus's Death is finally laid to rest.
That was in the last Horus Heresy artbook. The bit where the artist formerly known as Fulgrim presents his 'gift' to Horus is a direct reprint of that.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2007-06-27 03:26pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Damn straight about Specialist Games. What does it take to get a little love for Battlefleet Gothic? I know they've made a cast and a mold for the Mars Pattern battlecruisers, so when will they see the light of day? Same thing for the Endeavour light cruisers. I'd rather have my new spaceships than some vanilla space marines with new helmets, but a Horus Heresy line would still be nice.
Anyway, enough of that rant.

You have to remember that Specialist Games is basically one guy supporting five or so games with pretty much bugger all central support. There's only so much he can do with his days..

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2007-06-28 03:56am

Falkenhayn wrote: GW is releasing an Ad-Mech Fleet. So far they've got models for a Battleship, a Cruiser and an Escort, that we know of. The rules should be out some time around August.

Wait. Wait...

Wait a minute.

I need to ask you the most important question I've asked anyone about anything all year:

August?
This August?
Are the models coming out at the same time? Do you have a link or any other information?

I must know!

Also, to stray back on topic, I noticed that my local Borders has pushed back its expected release date for Brothers of the Snake until 7/31/07 (or 31/7/07 for those of you with non-cartoon villain governments). Does this mean Fulgrim won't be out until 8/30 or so? Damn you Brits and your punctuality!

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2007-06-28 02:43pm

NecronLord wrote:
Falkenhayn wrote:More or less tragic than Magnus?
More.

What? How?

Fulgrim was a retard who thought voices in his head were perfectly normal and only when he was about to kill his brother did he realise how much of a dick he'd become. He deserved everything he got.

Magnus did everything he could, tried to stop Horus turning, tried to warn the Emperor and for being loyal is declared a traitor. His only flaw was that instead of using a conventional messenger he used the fastest method he had available which was, unfortunately for him, one that was banned.

In fact just about every primach that sided with Horus depicted in the new books has been a retard in one way or anthoer:

Horus, "Hmmm.... I can either believe my brother or I can believe the guy that I just caught impersonating my dead best friend, admitted lieing to me and is trying to get me to turn against my father. Dead best friend impersonater sounds good"
Angron is basically the poster child of 'roid rage'.
Fulgrim as noted thought that hearing strange voices in your head was perfectly normal.
Magnus thought that using the thing he had been banned from doing to try and tell the person that banned him doing it that his most trusted son was going to turn on him was a good idea.
Only Mortarion doesn't have some blatently obvious stupid moment that makes you want to reach into the book and give these supoosably supersmart demi gods a slap upside the head for being so dumb.

That said I liked the book, though having a deamon possess Fulgrim in the end wasn't to my liking.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-28 03:06pm

Magnus just eventually said 'sod it' and turned bad. And Magnus didn't suddenly see the future in a dream and decide to dust the sorcery books off, he went home and said 'The Emperor's wrong. I know best. More sorcery, lads!' And thanks to that, he ended up buttfucking Earth with his message.

Fulgrim gets the sheer joy of being trapped inside his own head and subjected to the perversity of a demon, spitting on everything he loved and stood for; for ten thousand years.

He's or at least, what's left of him, is still there, in the 41st millenium, screaming away inside the back of demon-Fulgrim's head at the bastard that ordered the population of Earth turned into drugs, and had his own warriors do it.

The Emperor's more of an incompetant than any of them, of course, but if there's any that evokes my pity, it's Fulgrim. You don't think the demon in his head might have warped perception a little to avoid him deciding 'hey, this is freaky' with its not inconsiderable mind powers, maybe? What's he going to do, on a ship crammed with people that look up to him, go and see Deanna Troi, Ship's Counselor?

He doesn't have Malus Darkblade's option of snapping 'Shut up daemon' whenever it pipes up. The Emperor's got him firmly convinced there's no such animal, so voices in his head must just be him going nuts, no? What's Captain Perfect to do, admit he's going insane and retire, or knuckle down and put up with the voice.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-06-28 04:36pm

Sounds a bit like they pulled a lil ROTS-style thing with Fulgrim. Remember when Yoda was "counseling" Anakin about his nightmares and he didn't do a bangup job of it?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-06-28 04:44pm

The Emperor seems to have been perfect in every way. Except that he sucked as a politician (which is presumably why he was so dependant on the Sigillite) and thus mis-managed his sons before the Heresy. I mean, saving Angron's bacon after sitting there and letting all his friends get killed in front of him? Stupid!

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2007-06-28 05:41pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
Falkenhayn wrote: GW is releasing an Ad-Mech Fleet. So far they've got models for a Battleship, a Cruiser and an Escort, that we know of. The rules should be out some time around August.
Wait. Wait...

Wait a minute.

I need to ask you the most important question I've asked anyone about anything all year:

August?
This August?
Are the models coming out at the same time? Do you have a link or any other information?

I must know!

Also, to stray back on topic, I noticed that my local Borders has pushed back its expected release date for Brothers of the Snake until 7/31/07 (or 31/7/07 for those of you with non-cartoon villain governments). Does this mean Fulgrim won't be out until 8/30 or so? Damn you Brits and your punctuality!

Brothers of the Snake is out in B&N in Hardcover right now. I was there yesterday. Bastards stole a march on us.

As for your other questions:
The release date, per Warseer's rumor KGB, is early August.
+http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront ... nav=300808
A Battleship, a Cruiser, and a Light Cruiser. As built, the Cruiser is VERY Lance heavy, while the Light Cruiser is Bat Heavy and the Battleship is mixed.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2007-06-28 06:14pm

NecronLord wrote:The Emperor seems to have been perfect in every way. Except that he sucked as a politician (which is presumably why he was so dependant on the Sigillite) and thus mis-managed his sons before the Heresy. I mean, saving Angron's bacon after sitting there and letting all his friends get killed in front of him? Stupid!

Of course he sucked as a politician. The Emperor is the epitome of what it means to be human and we all know that politicians are inhuman scum. He's just lucky the internal conflict didn't give him a stroke.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2007-06-28 07:20pm

NecronLord wrote:Magnus just eventually said 'sod it' and turned bad. And Magnus didn't suddenly see the future in a dream and decide to dust the sorcery books off, he went home and said 'The Emperor's wrong. I know best. More sorcery, lads!' And thanks to that, he ended up buttfucking Earth with his message.

For a start Magnus' sorcery could have been used for good and that's what he was trying to do.
Secondly, saying "Magnus just eventually said 'sod it'" kinda glosses over the fact that one of his brothers came and slaughtered his people, destroyed his lifes work and kicked the shit out of him (IIRC Index Astartes said Russ broke Magnus' back) all while he was trying to help 'the good guys'.
That to me seems to be a more justifiable reason for siding with Horus, rather than "he just said 'sod it'".

Fulgrim gets the sheer joy of being trapped inside his own head and subjected to the perversity of a demon, spitting on everything he loved and stood for; for ten thousand years.

He's or at least, what's left of him, is still there, in the 41st millenium, screaming away inside the back of demon-Fulgrim's head at the bastard that ordered the population of Earth turned into drugs, and had his own warriors do it.

The Emperor's more of an incompetant than any of them, of course, but if there's any that evokes my pity, it's Fulgrim. You don't think the demon in his head might have warped perception a little to avoid him deciding 'hey, this is freaky' with its not inconsiderable mind powers, maybe? What's he going to do, on a ship crammed with people that look up to him, go and see Deanna Troi, Ship's Counselor?

He doesn't have Malus Darkblade's option of snapping 'Shut up daemon' whenever it pipes up. The Emperor's got him firmly convinced there's no such animal, so voices in his head must just be him going nuts, no? What's Captain Perfect to do, admit he's going insane and retire, or knuckle down and put up with the voice.

I have little sympathy for Fulgrim given that he makes 2 massive mistakes.

1- Not being able to link picking up a sword that had a bunch of aliens having an orgy round it and the appearence of a strange voice in his head. He doesn't even make the connection when he kills a Wraithlord and feels the life leave it's soulstone. If the Eldar can keep the souls of dead people alive in things, then maybe other races can too, especially when said sword has a big stone in it.
Those are just the the 2 main reasons why he should have made the connection, but there's a load of other little things happening.
The only defence for him is to say the sword was clouding his mind all the time, but given the sheer number of things that were getting fucked up he should have noticed something.

2- Even more damning. He's just killed Ferrus and is sitting there going "oh woe is me, this sword has lied and corrupted me" and what does he do? He trusts the sword, which he himself has just admitted fucked him up, to actually kill him. He literally admits the sword corrupted him and destroyed his legion ... and then he trusts it.

So he's trapped in his own head by his own stupidity. True, maybe the punishment is a bit excessive, but that's what you get for not just being a retard, but a double retard.