Vorlon Planet Killer poll

[Rathark]

Every possibility must be explored if we are to continue to discuss this issue, and the apparent contradiction in early season 4 B5.

[Master of Ossus]

This has been covered on several other threads. It is inconsistent for the VPK to either destroy planets completely (DS style), or for it to have destroyed only some targets and not others. The only explanation that is consistent with both the on-screen material and by comparison with the SPK is that the VPK was only able to do massive surface-damage to targets.

[Crossover_Maniac]

I seem to recall there were only a handfull of Vorlon planetkillers in the fleet. It's not a stretch of the imagination that some of the targets were hit by orbital bombardment from Vorlon dreadnoughts.

[Howedar]

We only saw one, ever.

[starfury]

we saw two at least, the one over centuari prime and one over corina 6.

[Howedar]

Right. I knew that.

[consequences]

Aren't the power levels on smaller vorlon ships inconsistent with the amount of damage that would be necessary to demolish a planet in short order before a task force appears firing up their buts?

[Rathark]

Aren't the power levels on smaller vorlon ships inconsistent with the amount of damage that would be necessary to demolish a planet in short order before a task force appears firing up their buts?

Not necessarily. Different power generators and other engineering factors could come into play here. It's like scaling up a grenade to an H-bomb, or Han Solo's blaster to a heavy turbo laser.

[Dark Primus]

Why don't you ask the God of B5 himself? JMS he can probably verify it for you. Everything he says is canon.


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.a ... arch&meta=

He does post in this newsgroup from time to time and answear the questions.

[Master of Ossus]

The problem is not the firepower of the Vorlons themselves, as almost all weapons systems become exponentially more powerful as their size rises, but the observed effects are not great enough to consider the VPK a planet-destoyer. Also, the Shadow Planet Killer clearly did not completely demolish the worlds that it attacked. In order for this to be consistent with the theme that the Vorlons and Shadows are roughly technologically equivalent, we have to believe that the vorlons do not possess significantly more firepower than the Shadows. In fact, it appears in many cases that Vorlon technology is actually weaker than Shadow technology. This would help explain a number of things on the show.

I think, primarily, though, that it is far more reasonable to assume that the VPK is not a true planet-destroyer. At the most, its main weapon devestates continents but does not wipe out all complex life on the planets that it attacks.

[Dark Primus]

The problem is not the firepower of the Vorlons themselves, as almost all weapons systems become exponentially more powerful as their size rises, but the observed effects are not great enough to consider the VPK a planet-destoyer. Also, the Shadow Planet Killer clearly did not completely demolish the worlds that it attacked. In order for this to be consistent with the theme that the Vorlons and Shadows are roughly technologically equivalent, we have to believe that the vorlons do not possess significantly more firepower than the Shadows. In fact, it appears in many cases that Vorlon technology is actually weaker than Shadow technology. This would help explain a number of things on the show.

I think, primarily, though, that it is far more reasonable to assume that the VPK is not a true planet-destroyer. At the most, its main weapon devestates continents but does not wipe out all complex life on the planets that it attacks.

No, both the Vorlons and the Shadows are technological equal but in two different ways. The Shadows are phasing while Vorlons are creatures made out of living energy of some kind. They are both advanced in two total different areas but equal to each other.

[Patrick Degan]

The possibility at least exists that the VPK is indeed a planet-shattering superweapon, albeit one considerably more limited than a Death Star. It must close to high orbital range, at the least, to make its weapon effective against a target planet.

If its beam is capable of delivering a maximum 2E32 joules of energy, the debris from the shattered world will be propelled at only escape velocity (11km/sec), which affords the VPK sufficent time to pull away from the destroyed world as its debris field expands outward. However, the possibility that Mike Wong raised in his discussion, that the beam merely causes a large amount of matter to be ejected upward into high orbit cannot be ruled out entirely; which is consistent with the theory that the VPK is not a planet-cracker.

The Vorlons appeared to have only two planet killers in their arsenal. When VPK 1 was destroyed by the First Ones at Coriana VI, the Vorlons called in all their remaining ships as reinforcements. This order had the immediate effect of forcing the withdrawal of VPK 2 from Centauri Prime as it was about to carry out its attack. If the Vorlons had more of these superships in their fleet, they could have carried out the destruction of Centauri Prime as intended and still have called up another VPK to reinforce their position at Coriana.

The theory that has been touched upon in this thread, albeit only slightly, which seems to fit all the facts most economically is that the Vorlon blitzkrieg involved the deployment of their planet killers to destroy some worlds while the rest of the Vorlon fleet devestated other worlds through orbital bombardment in their own version of a base delta-zero operation. This theory:

a) allows the possibility that the Vorlon Planet Killer is a world-shatterer

b) explains the evidence of refugees and survivors remaining alive to be evacuated from Vorlon-devestated worlds

c) fits the logical conclusion that two planet killers operating round the clock, hitting worlds in succession, could not, given the known restrictions of hyperspatial travel in the Babylon 5 universe, have managed to hit all the worlds listed in Susan Ivanova's emergency broadcasts in only 48 hours. The tandem deployment of the VPKs along with the rest of the fleet in a multipronged campaign hitting multiple worlds simultaneously is the simplest explanation to account for the level of devestation wreaked by the Vorlons in the short time frame allowed in the storyline. It would achieve the objectives of the campaign quickly while also maximising terror and reducing the response time of any resistance to their juggernaut.

[Master of Ossus]

You are assuming that the Vorlon planet killers were the only ones that they had. This may or may not be consistent with what we know. Consider that the Shadows had enough planet-killers to allow for one of them to fall into the hands of the Drakh after they left the Galaxy. The Vorlons were a similarly powerful race, and it is unlikely that the Shadows had vastly more PKers than they did.

BTW, you are also assuming a Vorlon ability to conduct massive planet-scale bombardments, which we never saw AND you are assuming that the VPK was able to shatter worlds, which we did not see. I do not see how your explanation is more reasonable than the other ones that have already been proposed.

[Patrick Degan]

You are assuming that the Vorlon planet killers were the only ones that they had. This may or may not be consistent with what we know. Consider that the Shadows had enough planet-killers to allow for one of them to fall into the hands of the Drakh after they left the Galaxy. The Vorlons were a similarly powerful race, and it is unlikely that the Shadows had vastly more PKers than they did.

The episode "Into The Fire" gives me reason to make the assumption that two planet killers was all the Vorlons had. Lennier said, explicitly, that the Vorlons were calling in "all their remaining ships" after VPK1 was destroyed. Immediately upon that recall, VPK2 was withdrawn from Centauri Prime, its mission aborted.

On the other hand, you seem to be making assumptions as to how many deathclouds the Shadows had in their inventory and that they were deployed in the same manner as the VPKs. From everything we see, the Shadow Deathcloud is not an independently deployable weapon, and they didn't manage to get around to hitting as many planets as the Vorlons did before they were drawn to Coriana VI by Sheridan's ruse. As for the Drakh having one or more of the things, remember that they helped build them.

BTW, you are also assuming a Vorlon ability to conduct massive planet-scale bombardments, which we never saw AND you are assuming that the VPK was able to shatter worlds, which we did not see. I do not see how your explanation is more reasonable than the other ones that have already been proposed.

I allow for the possiblility, implied in the actual episodes, that the VPK is a planet-cracker. I also allowed for the possibility of Mike Wong's theory. As for "assuming the Vorlon ability to conduct massive planet-scale bombardments", you cannot be serious about disputing this. If we throw out entirely the VPK's ability to shatter a planet, that leaves massive scale planetary bombardment as the mechanism of its destructive capability. If we go with the theory I've outlined, then the sheer number of worlds destroyed by the Vorlons in a 48 hour period does not allow for any other possibility than the execution of massive-scale planetary bombardment by their fleet units even with the assumed VPK ability to shatter worlds, because there is no way that the VPKs could have hit as many worlds on their own given the hours/days transit times of B5 hyperspatial travel just to cover an interstellar area 1000 lightyears in radius.

[Master of Ossus]

Remember that the Minbari, the most advanced of all the Younger Races, still used their infantry forces against GROPOS for no apparent reason. Planetary bombardment appears to be extremely limited in scale in B5, except with planet-killers. Remember that even the Centauri, another highly advanced race, needed special weapons to bomb Narn, and that those appeared to be little more than rock-throwers. I see little evidence of planetary bombardment being common in B5, and significant evidence that it is not.

[Nephilim]

You are assuming that the Vorlon planet killers were the only ones that they had. This may or may not be consistent with what we know. Consider that the Shadows had enough planet-killers to allow for one of them to fall into the hands of the Drakh after they left the Galaxy. The Vorlons were a similarly powerful race, and it is unlikely that the Shadows had vastly more PKers than they did.

Both the Shadows and the Vorlons never saw the need to use their planetkillers. This would defeat the entire purpose of their wars of ideology against each other. To quote Sheridan from the episode Into the Fire.

"You had the technology to destroy Z'ha'Dum ALL along! But you never used it! Why?"

The answer to this question is Lorien. Lorien was the one that laid down the Rules of Engagement that both the Vorlons and Shadows had adhered to for millenia. Both the Shadows and Vorlons knew that if they warred against each other, it would end in a MAD situation. So they used the Younger races instead to see which of their philosophies was right. The Vorlons never destroyed Z'ha'Dum itself, because Lorien lived there. They would NEVER dare to attack someone whom they revered for millions of years. When Kosh sent the small Vorlon attack fleet to engage the Shadows in Interludes and Examinations, the Vorlons broke the Rules of Engagement, and Kosh was killed (this is supported by the Technomage Trilogy, Book III). He knew what he had done, and when the Shadows came for him, he didn't fight back. Even when he knew full well that he could take some Shadows along with him. In this case, the Rules of Engagement weren't broken to their fullest. When the Vorlons had enough, and began attacking any Shadow world, destroying them utterly. It was a free for all, it was then and ONLY then, that the Shadows took out their Planetkiller. Hopes that gives an explanation as to why there were only 2 Planetkillers.... There wasn't time to build additional ones...

Also, the Shadows didn't leave a Planetkiller behind. The Drakh built it from a secret Shadow base called Xha'Dam in under a day, and began construction of two more within minutes after the first was completed. Before these other two Planetkillers were completed (which the books gives obscenely high build times for the Death Clouds, which are able to envelop entire planets), Vir, with the help of the Technomages was able to destroy it. The other Planetkiller that had been completed was the one that was used against Daltron 7, and then attempted against Earth.

[Patrick Degan]

Remember that the Minbari, the most advanced of all the Younger Races, still used their infantry forces against GROPOS for no apparent reason. Planetary bombardment appears to be extremely limited in scale in B5, except with planet-killers. Remember that even the Centauri, another highly advanced race, needed special weapons to bomb Narn, and that those appeared to be little more than rock-throwers. I see little evidence of planetary bombardment being common in B5, and significant evidence that it is not.

I'm sorry, but that argument simply does not obtain. Surely, you are not going to try to advance the proposition that the Vorlons are incapable of carrying out a thorough planetary bombardment, or even to deploy a planet-cracking superweapon simply because the Minbari are incapable of either operation. That's like saying that if the islanders of Pago-Pago are incapable of executing a D-Day scale invasion, the United States is similarly incapable. What the Minbari or the Narns or the Centauri were capable of is immaterial. We're talking about what the Vorlons were capable of.

If the Vorlons didn't employ planetary bombardment, then how did they wreak the devestation on the worlds they targeted? Large-scale ground invasion? And if their planet killers are capable of actually shattering a planet, then how could the heavy capships of their fleet not be capable of executing orbital bombardment?

I'm sorry, but you cannot judge the capabilities of the most advanced race by the limited capabilities of the least advanced race. And in any case, the Vorlons were clearly carrying out a large-scale blitzkrieg leaving devestated, burned out, or even shattered worlds in their wake. That's in the episodes, and you can try to argue against it all you like.

[Guest]

Remember that the Minbari, the most advanced of all the Younger Races, still used their infantry forces against GROPOS for no apparent reason. Planetary bombardment appears to be extremely limited in scale in B5, except with planet-killers. Remember that even the Centauri, another highly advanced race, needed special weapons to bomb Narn, and that those appeared to be little more than rock-throwers. I see little evidence of planetary bombardment being common in B5, and significant evidence that it is not.

Little more than rock-throwers? A single rock is enough to destroy all life on a planet, when the said rock is big enough. Tey're called meteors. What the centauri did was basically bombard Narn with a small meteor shower. Nothing primitive about that.

Also, it should be noted that one of the reasons that planetary bombardment is rarely used is that it is forbidden by some interplanetary treaty. The matter drivers, for example, were considered illegal weaponry and that the Centauri were willing to use them was not appreciated by the other races.

As for the original question itself: yes, the Planet Killers destroyed the planets. This was made quite clear in the show. In the episode The Summoning, the following conversation takes place on B5, when Ivanova and Marcus brief Sheridan and the others about the Vorlon fleet:

Ivanova: "The Shadow base was located on a planet called Arkata 7. It's not there anymore."

Lennier: "The Base?"

Lyta: "No, the planet. They destroyed... they destroyed an entire planet.".

In the next episode (Falling Towards Apotheosis), this is even shown. First we see footage of the fleet approaching a planet, and the PK getting ready to fire. Then, a few minutes later, we see the fleet moving through a cloud of debris that used to be the planet.[/i]

[Master of Ossus]

Remember that the Minbari, the most advanced of all the Younger Races, still used their infantry forces against GROPOS for no apparent reason. Planetary bombardment appears to be extremely limited in scale in B5, except with planet-killers. Remember that even the Centauri, another highly advanced race, needed special weapons to bomb Narn, and that those appeared to be little more than rock-throwers. I see little evidence of planetary bombardment being common in B5, and significant evidence that it is not.

I'm sorry, but that argument simply does not obtain. Surely, you are not going to try to advance the proposition that the Vorlons are incapable of carrying out a thorough planetary bombardment, or even to deploy a planet-cracking superweapon simply because the Minbari are incapable of either operation. That's like saying that if the islanders of Pago-Pago are incapable of executing a D-Day scale invasion, the United States is similarly incapable. What the Minbari or the Narns or the Centauri were capable of is immaterial. We're talking about what the Vorlons were capable of.

If the Vorlons didn't employ planetary bombardment, then how did they wreak the devestation on the worlds they targeted? Large-scale ground invasion? And if their planet killers are capable of actually shattering a planet, then how could the heavy capships of their fleet not be capable of executing orbital bombardment?

I'm sorry, but you cannot judge the capabilities of the most advanced race by the limited capabilities of the least advanced race. And in any case, the Vorlons were clearly carrying out a large-scale blitzkrieg leaving devestated, burned out, or even shattered worlds in their wake. That's in the episodes, and you can try to argue against it all you like.

You are correct to an extent. It is difficult to measure races across the board, like this. The problem I have with your defense of the Vorlon, though, is that I was not saying that the Vorlon were incapable of bombarding a planet, per se. I was trying to say that there was little evidence they were capable of a massive bombardment (like the kind implied in TDiC, or in a BDZ operation). Also remember that the Minbari are not far behind the Shadows and the Vorlons. They were even able to defeat apparently modern Shadow techology one thousand years earlier with obviously inferior Minbari technology (and Babylon 4). Thus, I thought that the comparison between the races was reasonable. Had the Shadows been enormously more powerful than the Minbari, the Minbari would no longer exist. It is testament to the Minbari techology (and destiny) that the Shadows were defeated. I won't claim that the Minbari technology is better than the Shadows or the Vorlon's tech. It's not. But it cannot be THAT far behind, or the Minbari would not have stood a chance, in that war.

[Master of Ossus]

Remember that the Minbari, the most advanced of all the Younger Races, still used their infantry forces against GROPOS for no apparent reason. Planetary bombardment appears to be extremely limited in scale in B5, except with planet-killers. Remember that even the Centauri, another highly advanced race, needed special weapons to bomb Narn, and that those appeared to be little more than rock-throwers. I see little evidence of planetary bombardment being common in B5, and significant evidence that it is not.

Little more than rock-throwers? A single rock is enough to destroy all life on a planet, when the said rock is big enough. Tey're called meteors. What the centauri did was basically bombard Narn with a small meteor shower. Nothing primitive about that.

Also, it should be noted that one of the reasons that planetary bombardment is rarely used is that it is forbidden by some interplanetary treaty. The matter drivers, for example, were considered illegal weaponry and that the Centauri were willing to use them was not appreciated by the other races.

As for the original question itself: yes, the Planet Killers destroyed the planets. This was made quite clear in the show. In the episode The Summoning, the following conversation takes place on B5, when Ivanova and Marcus brief Sheridan and the others about the Vorlon fleet:

Ivanova: "The Shadow base was located on a planet called Arkata 7. It's not there anymore."

Lennier: "The Base?"

Lyta: "No, the planet. They destroyed... they destroyed an entire planet.".

In the next episode (Falling Towards Apotheosis), this is even shown. First we see footage of the fleet approaching a planet, and the PK getting ready to fire. Then, a few minutes later, we see the fleet moving through a cloud of debris that used to be the planet.[/i]

The only reason for a weapon to be banned by interplanetary treaty is if it is particularly cruel or barbaric, or if it is unreasonably powerful or designed solely to target civilians. The mass drivers shown in the show were built by the second most advanced of the Younger Races, the Centauri. They appeared to propel a small rock at relatively low velocity. The KE of that rock would have been far lower than the energy created by a fusion bomb, which also has the advantage of being smaller (ref. ItB). The Centauri have ships capable of firing missiles from orbit to attack specific targets on the ground, so it stands to reason that they should have been able to use such an attack. That is why I said that the mass drivers were primitive. You are correct, it is essentially creating a small meteor shower on the ground, but you are incorrect in assuming that that is a particularly powerful attack, or assuming that it is not primitive. Actually, the fact that it is banned indicates that it was an extremely primitive attack because it is neither cruel, barbaric, nor particularly powerful. The only reason it would have been banned would be because it was a highly inaccurate attack, which could only be used to target a population center, instead of a building or even a military installation. The mass drivers were clearly quite primitive.

As for your quote, this has been dealt with in the past. The vast majority of evidence indicates clearly that the VPK could not destroy a planet, and neither could the SPK, whose results have been seen.

Incidentally, you have also failed to explain the survivors, or the necessity of atmospheric shuttles.

[Isil`Zha]

umm, it was stated that a planet attacked by the Vorlons was just plain "gone" and in another episode we *see* the VPK flying through the debris field of a planet it just destroyed... it is canon that VPKs blow appart planets completely.

[adam warlock]

As for your quote, this has been dealt with in the past. The vast majority of evidence indicates clearly that the VPK could not destroy a planet, and neither could the SPK, whose results have been seen.

umm.. "..arkada 7. its not there anymore" means exactly that.. its not there anymore.. why is it not there anymore?. as lyta said it was "destroyed".

add to that susan ivanova actually had a probe sent there (the area arkada 7 resided in) to look for "anything" unsual.

sure.. the spk may have not been shown to destroy a planet.. but it doesnt mean the shadows are entirely incapable of creating the means to do so..
the shattering destruction of zhadum, shown in epiphanies, proves this..

so shadows can shatter planets..if the vorlon's level of technology is similar, then the vorlons too can shatter planets.

btw b5wars does describe the vorlon planet "cracker" to be capable of shattering/destroying planets.

[/quote]
Incidentally, you have also failed to explain the survivors, or the necessity of atmospheric shuttles.
[/quote]

Basically we have three other possible theories that can fit the ivanovas report more (considering that the vpk CAN, and did shatter a planet)

1) the vorlons attack of refugee stations came as a complete surprise.. the alliance meeting on b5 stressed that it was hard to predict where and when the vorlons would strike next... adding more ships to ones already present around refugee stations would hasten and ease evacuation procedures, in case of possible vorlon fleet nearby...

2) not all vorlon targets are at the same level of technology. some may not even be spacefaring, or even primitive... prime example being corianna 6 itself (population of 6 billion), sheriden himself stated corianna to be lowtech.....thus leading to the possibility that a considerable percentage of ships used by one set of survivors may have been needed elsewhere to evacuate those without means to escape, or leave their planet. hence when the vorlons targeted the refugee stations the alliance made a call for more ships (atmospheric ships, spaceships) to help evacuate those, not just on their home planets, but also those on refugee stations.

3) as covered by patrick.. theres also the possibility that fleets of vorlon dreadnaughts, sans planet killer, couldve executed orbital bombardments on some planets.. which of course werent thorough enough, hence survivors and need of atmospheric shuttles.
ea themselves are capable of making weapons, 1/10 the length of an omega, with a primary beam weapon capable of "wiping" out the whole of the uk (or americas eastern seaboard).. 1000 of these in one salvo could wipe out most of earths surface..
the vorlons had 10,000 ships per fleet (as stated in the graphic novel "in valens name" written by jms).

umm, it was stated that a planet attacked by the Vorlons was just plain "gone" and in another episode we *see* the VPK flying through the debris field of a planet it just destroyed... it is canon that VPKs blow appart planets completely.

"gone" could still mean that the planet is there, but with the surface destroyed to an extent that it becomes unrecognizable as the planet it once was.

however the exact words were "its not there anymore"..

as for that debris field.. judging by the velocities of the huge rocks, id rather think of them as huge asteroids in a belt the vorlon fleet just happen to be passing through.

[Nephilim]

The only reason for a weapon to be banned by interplanetary treaty is if it is particularly cruel or barbaric, or if it is unreasonably powerful or designed solely to target civilians. The mass drivers shown in the show were built by the second most advanced of the Younger Races, the Centauri. They appeared to propel a small rock at relatively low velocity. The KE of that rock would have been far lower than the energy created by a fusion bomb, which also has the advantage of being smaller (ref. ItB). The Centauri have ships capable of firing missiles from orbit to attack specific targets on the ground, so it stands to reason that they should have been able to use such an attack. That is why I said that the mass drivers were primitive. You are correct, it is essentially creating a small meteor shower on the ground, but you are incorrect in assuming that that is a particularly powerful attack, or assuming that it is not primitive. Actually, the fact that it is banned indicates that it was an extremely primitive attack because it is neither cruel, barbaric, nor particularly powerful. The only reason it would have been banned would be because it was a highly inaccurate attack, which could only be used to target a population center, instead of a building or even a military installation. The mass drivers were clearly quite primitive.

As for your quote, this has been dealt with in the past. The vast majority of evidence indicates clearly that the VPK could not destroy a planet, and neither could the SPK, whose results have been seen.

Incidentally, you have also failed to explain the survivors, or the necessity of atmospheric shuttles.

The Mass Drivers were used by the Dilgar during the Dilgar War against a large part of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. Mass Drivers ARE specifically used against all forms of live on the planets, whether it be civilian, or military, it didn't matter. The tactic behind using Mass Drivers is simple, the amount of troops necessary to invade a homeworld numbers in the tens of millions, even if they're not highly trained, tens of millions of troops is still enough to hold out any invasion force that the force of B5 are capable of putting forth and transporting with the ships. So they use the Mass Drivers to thin down the amount of troops on the planet, and scatter them. In the words of Londo when he spoke to Lord Refa about invading Narn.

"Any force invading Narn would be up to its neck in blood, its own!"

Also notice, that the Mass Drivers work with collateral damage, they do not hit the surface of the planet, instead they explode in the atmosphere and cause large amounts of collateral damage from these explosions. It would make either A) The Narns, with sustained bombardment surrender due to the millions of casualties they cause, destruction of the entire economy (which is what happened) or B) Thin out troop numbers, so a full scale invasion can be attempted. Needless to say, option A is a far better option.

As for the Planetkiller, its dealt with in B5Wars the capabilities of the Vorlon Planetkiller, its capable of shattering a planet up to the size of Jupiter. If Warsies can use EU as a source for the capabilities of Star Wars, why shouldn't Babylon 5 use this source which as been approved as canon by JMS himself (who also wrote that he approves it in the books himself in the foreword)?

[Dark Primus]

As for the Planetkiller, its dealt with in B5Wars the capabilities of the Vorlon Planetkiller, its capable of shattering a planet up to the size of Jupiter. If Warsies can use EU as a source for the capabilities of Star Wars, why shouldn't Babylon 5 use this source which as been approved as canon by JMS himself (who also wrote that he approves it in the books himself in the foreword)?

Size of Jupiter huh? So it is equal powerful to the Death Star? Ok Warsies no you have a problem.

[adam warlock]

Size of Jupiter huh? So it is equal powerful to the Death Star? Ok Warsies no you have a problem.

actually it the description in b5wars places the upper limit to brown dwarves, which means its capable of disrupting/destroying planets with 12-14 times the mass of jupiter..