Grey Knight versus Jedi

[white_rabbit]

Grey Knight

From the 40k Universe, a Grey Knight is a Space Marine, i.e. genetically enhanced human.

Basic physical enhancements are organ redundancies, sub-dermal armour, stronger bones..good teeth speed strength , rapid healing (i.e. minor-medium wounds close/cease bleeding in seconds) multiple organ redundancies immune system enhancements, uber endurance and toughness blah blah blah.

Training for a normal marine is at least the equal of a Crimson guardsmen, multiple combat diciplines in a wide variety of weapons and environs a typical marine "day" when they are elevated to full marine status has around an hours worth of time in which they are not training or "sleeping" (marines dont sleep, max time without regen 312 hours IIRC)



Armaments.

Nemesis Force Halberd. Large Glaive like weapon with one Blade, can be used one-handed or two handed by the marine, the weapon is surrounded by an energy field generated by the Grey Knight which enables it to slice effortlessly through anything unfortunate enough to be in the way, (also has the side effect of being able to hurt Daemonsbut thats not relevent)

Dual Bolter gauntlet, has a Gauntlet mounted weapon that has two linked bolters or a Stormbolter, fires explosive armour piercing 20mm rounds on semi-full auto.

Grey Knights can wear either specialised Tactical Dreadnaught armour suits or advanced Power Armour suits which enhance speed and strength of the marine as well as protecting them.

Marine armour includes multiple visual enhancing abilities i.e. thermal, magnification, night-vision(marines have superior NV anyway, ) etc, also has an auto-targetting capability that can target multiple objects and include sensor readouts on said targets, the targetting system is linked with the targetting systems of the bolter gauntlet.

Grey Knights use their own psionic powers to "enhance their physical prowess and abilities" as well as offensively.


For the debate the Marine is using power armour


Versus .


A Jedi...of average ability or a Jedi Master of average ability

Armed with a Lightsaber.



Who wins ?

[2000AD]

Tough one. If we assume the Force Halberd wont get sliced by the Lightsabre, and that the lightsabre can penetrate the power armour this is going to be a tough match.

Big question: Does the Aegis suit the Grey knight wear block Jedi powers like it does WH40K psychic powers and can the GK nullify them by the same principle?

Sidenote: A lot of people think that Grey Knights can use psychic powers. This is true FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW. Individual GK cannot use powers, (Hower they can nullify them) but when in a squad they can, as they channel their energies together. (This is backed up in the latest Inquisitor magazine and will presumably in the soon to be released Codex: Demon Hunters as well.)

[white_rabbit]

Individual GK cannot use powers, (Hower they can nullify them) but when in a squad they can, as they channel their energies together

Actually individual Grey Knights psychic powers according to the fluff are devoted to powering their Force weapons, and enhancing their own abilities as well as co-ordinating with their brethren and using the concerted will of a squad or more to banish daemons or fry things with the Holocaust power IIRC.

I would say that a Force Halbeard wouldnt be sliced by a Saber, in Inquisitor Force weapons dont get sliced by a power weapon, I see no reason why they will get sliced by a Lightsaber.

Big question: Does the Aegis suit the Grey knight wear block Jedi powers like it does WH40K psychic powers and can the GK nullify them by the same principle?

Well, from what Ive read, Aegis suits act as an aid to the wearers own natural powers of nullification, allowing them to stop other psychic powers affecting them with much less effort.

They dont appear to actually disable psionics a la Ysalarmi but instead prevent psionic effects on the wearer.

And Grey Knights dont have weak minds to be toyed with, they are infact legendary for not having weak minds

and that the lightsabre can penetrate the power armour

Im pretty sure the lightsaber can penetrate the armour, but its not going to be a piece of cake. Power armour is rather tough.

[2000AD]

By Jedi powers i didn't just mean the mind control, hell a GK can go toe to toe with insane warp beasties and come out sane, that's a strong mind!

Since Jedi powers aren't warp based like 40K psychics can a GK nullify them? If not then he has other stuff to contend with like being piicked up and thrown across the room, assuming that the JK is mentally strong enough. While that probably wouldn't hurt the GK that much it might create an opening for the Jedi to exploit.

Also is ths a light or dark side force user? Can we expect choking and lightning?

[white_rabbit]

Also is ths a light or dark side force user? Can we expect choking and lightning?

Try Light side first, although to be honest, I dont expect choking to be a problem, it takes concentration, and not being shot at with a Stormbolter or charged by an angry space marine with his armour on oxygen recycling mode.

Since Jedi powers aren't warp based like 40K psychics can a GK nullify them?

Dunno, although the warp and the force could be compatable, "energy that binds life together" and "boundless energy" (warp)

[2000AD]

Ok. So for the purposes of this debate the GK can nullify Jedi powers. correct?

Could the GK also nullify the JK's force premenition, therefor allowing the GKt to simply plug the Jedi full of holes with his stormbolter?

[white_rabbit]

Well, Aegis suits seem to be specific to things which affect the Grey Knight personally, i.e. energy blasts, psionic mutation etc etc.


So I dont think the Jedi would be inhibited in his other abilitys, otherwise this would be an extremely short debate consisting of either a GK annhilating the Jedi with a hail of explosive shells, or a GK dismembering a Jedi.

[2000AD]

Right. so thew GK can nullify jedi powers used against him but not things the jedi does to himself like force premenition or force speed. Correct?

Also we are to assume that the stormbolter does not fire fast enough to counter the Jedis preminition?

Going by this it comes down to who's the better swordsman / halberdman. Tough one. Force preminition gives the Jedi an advantage here and if you coupled it with F.Speed it could be quite deadly. However the GK's are trained in combat to be the best of the best of the genetically engineered troop picked from the best of the best of the normal humans. These guys go toe-to-toe with demons and come out winning. I'd have to say it's a draw, but could favour the either one given the right conditions.

From a fan point of view though Grey Knights are just too cool therefor will own the Jedi all over!

[white_rabbit]

Also we are to assume that the stormbolter does not fire fast enough to counter the Jedis preminition?

Personally I think a Jedi would be VERY preoccupied with dodging if a Grey Knight started firing a full auto Storm bolter at him, thats a lot of explosive bolts to parry, hell, its a lot of weapons to Dodge!

However the GK's are trained in combat to be the best of the best of the genetically engineered troop picked from the best of the best of the normal humans.

And can probably use a form of combat precog/sense themselves, its a very low-level ability for psykers in 40k even a psyker who only just avoid becoming fodder for the Emperor can sense/dodge people shooting at them and anticipate blows (various 40k sources, Deathwing anthology, Words of Blood etc)

Plus GK are said to use their powers to amp their physical abilitys, in a similar fashion to Jedi.


Personally I think the Grey Knight pretty much has the advantage in resiliance here, as well as a weapon with a greater reach, vast strength and endurance and a lot more combat training than any Jedi bar the aliens who live more than say a thousand years.

[2000AD]

hmmmm... i say still evenly matched but the scales are tipping towards the GK's favour.

Question: Will a lightsabre slice through power armour like almost everything else or will it be like the bulkhead in TPM: stabbing into it is OK but slicing is quite hard ?

[white_rabbit]

hmmmm... i say still evenly matched but the scales are tipping towards the GK's favour.

Question: Will a lightsabre slice through power armour like almost everything else or will it be like the bulkhead in TPM: stabbing into it is OK but slicing is quite hard ?

Stabbing IMO would be a Jedis best method..

which unfortunately means they have to do rather a lot of stabbing.

[Exonerate]

Couldn't the Jedi just toss a few heavy objects at the GK? Also, how fast are the GK?

[white_rabbit]

Couldn't the Jedi just toss a few heavy objects at the GK? Also, how fast are the GK?

Upper limit of Space Marine speed.

So, pretty much faster than the eye can follow when really going at it in combat, with reflexes to match.


Grey Knights would also benefit from their inherent psionic abilitys, which could, linked in with their force weapon, allow them to deflect weapons fire, something which psionic Inquisitors armed with force weapons do rather easily.

[white_rabbit]

Couldn't the Jedi just toss a few heavy objects at the GK? Also, how fast are the GK?

How heavy are we talking here ?

I mean, the guys a Space marine, heavy objects would have to be star fighters or something to bother him.

and while the Jedi is standing there grimacing and muttering things like size matters not, is the GK supposed to stand there like a prick and let the thing fall ?

I think not. one ready made distraction in the form of a stormbolter or force weapon heading your way mr Jedi!

[Exonerate]

Jedi are pretty fast too... Dooku could throw that large pillar without much apparant effort.

[thecreech]

Grey knights are slow as hell, According to movment on the board. Jedi i much faster and more manuverable. I believe that a lightsaber would still cut throught the terminator armor pretty easily also. Over all in a CC fight Jedi would take it.

[SylasGaunt]

Grey knights are slow as hell, According to movment on the board. Jedi i much faster and more manuverable. I believe that a lightsaber would still cut throught the terminator armor pretty easily also. Over all in a CC fight Jedi would take it.

What the hell are you basing that on? Space Marines are physically superior in every way to humans and then the Grey Knights augment themselves psychically on top of that.

And rabbit one thing I remembered when you brought up the psychic Inquisitors blocking weapons fire with force weapons... that same inquisitor was able to make someone's head explodein the middle of combat.. the Grey Knight's probably got the same trick.

[thecreech]

Grey knights are slow as hell, According to movment on the board. Jedi i much faster and more manuverable. I believe that a lightsaber would still cut throught the terminator armor pretty easily also. Over all in a CC fight Jedi would take it.

What the hell are you basing that on? Space Marines are physically superior in every way to humans and then the Grey Knights augment themselves psychically on top of that.

And rabbit one thing I remembered when you brought up the psychic Inquisitors blocking weapons fire with force weapons... that same inquisitor was able to make someone's head explodein the middle of combat.. the Grey Knight's probably got the same trick.

What is your prove that they aren't slow? I realize that grey knights are far superior to humans and top space marines in Close combat and ballistic skills but it doesn't mean they are fast inside that terminator armor. They aren't meant to be fast, they are tank units. I based my claim on the space marines codex

[thecreech]

Grey knights are slow as hell, According to movment on the board. Jedi i much faster and more manuverable. I believe that a lightsaber would still cut throught the terminator armor pretty easily also. Over all in a CC fight Jedi would take it.

What the hell are you basing that on? Space Marines are physically superior in every way to humans and then the Grey Knights augment themselves psychically on top of that.

And rabbit one thing I remembered when you brought up the psychic Inquisitors blocking weapons fire with force weapons... that same inquisitor was able to make someone's head explodein the middle of combat.. the Grey Knight's probably got the same trick.

What is your prove that they aren't slow? I realize that grey knights are far superior to humans and top space marines in Close combat and ballistic skills but it doesn't mean they are fast inside that terminator armor. They aren't meant to be fast, they are tank units. I based my claim on the space marines codex

I mean, prove that they aren't slow in their armor

[SylasGaunt]

Even in the termy suits they can keep pace with other Grey Knights so they obviously aren't that slow, oh and Grey Knights don't have to neccesarily be in terminator armor anymore.

[2000AD]

For the debate the Marine is using power armour

Thats from the first post. He's not in terminator armour. he's in his standard power armour, which because he's a GK also has an aegis (sp) suit.

[2000AD]

And before you say it, yes they do wear power armour. Not all GK's come in Temie. armour, or you'll have to avert your eyes when the new GK boxset comes out next month!

[white_rabbit]

And before you say it, yes they do wear power armour. Not all GK's come in Temie. armour, or you'll have to avert your eyes when the new GK boxset comes out next month!

And nice looking armour it is...

I have pre-ordered some !

I mean, prove that they aren't slow in their armor

*Shrug*

They arent, Even before his bionic enhancement, Forrix (STOI) fought against marine opponents in power armour, and slapped them around, Terminators routinely engage foes like genestealers and were " the only units who could stand against the tyranids in close quarters" and the tyranid can rip through termy armour with ease. so it wasnt because they were walking tanks that they were winning..they had to have been faster than humans to even begin to fight 'Stealers


Normal Termy armour is bulkier and generally marines have less freedom when wearing it, however, Grey Knight armour is very obviously designed not to inhibit the wearer, indeed, the new models show that the GK termys are more humanoid than the normal TD armour.

And they also augment themselves psychically and routinely engage Daemons who are preternaturally fast and strong, and armed with weapons that negate the armour of a GK..

Hence they must be fast as well as strong, or they wouldnt be able to curb-stomp Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons.