EAS Agamemon (omega class) vs USS Enterprise (E)

[Col. Crackpot]

John Sheridan in the Agamemnon vs Jean Luc Picard in the Enterprise

who wins?

[Stormbringer]

John Sheridan in the Agamemnon vs Jean Luc Picard in the Enterprise

who wins?

Hmm, assuming he ever got around shooting before the ship was in peices I'd give this to picard.

The Omega is at a serious disadvantage but given Federation weakness against charged particle weapons if the Enterprise hold back too long they might well be in trouble. A lot of this depends on the circumstances.

[Sam Or I]

Does it come fully load with Thunderbolt Fighters?

[paladin]

Enterprise by alot.

[SyntaxVorlon]

The Enterprise cannot take many hits from high energy weapons like those on the Aggie, they may lose but the E-D is going down too.

[Alyeska]

The Enterprise cannot take many hits from high energy weapons like those on the Aggie, they may lose but the E-D is going down too.

The Aggie is weaker then Minbari Warcruisers. Said Warcruisers can be taken down by 2 MT warheads. The Enterprise has more then enough firepower to take down the Aggie while being able to sustain return fire.

[Darth Wong]

I have serious doubts about the Aggy's ability to do well in this battle, even if Sheridan does have ten times more testosterone than Picard.

[Sea Skimmer]

Enterprise would win easily, even if Picard waits five minutes into the fight to shoot back.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Picard will hold a call a meeting to discuss his options with his officers.

Meanwhile.........

Sheridan rams the Enterprise with the Agememnon.

[Ender]

Unless you use extreme low end numbers, the Feds can kick around the FOs. So the Omega goes down, and goes down hard.

[Ghost Rider]

Picard while not exactly par with any sort of tactics, would still win even after Data's technobabble explaination of what is standing in front of their ship.

B5 tech level for the younger races is not quite on the level of the Federation.

[Sam Or I]

Give Sheridan the Excalibur and [i]maybe[/i] he could pull it off, but not with the Agamemnon. The enterprise just outclasses the Agamemnon in almost every area.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually this reminds me alot of hte White Star/Defiant thread in some respects. While the Enterprise no doubt has a huge acceleration advantage, shields, better tactical FTL and missile range advantage (since the Aggy doesnt have any, really) it really still depends on two factors from the aforementioned thread: firepower and effective weapons range. The Omegas have potential thousands/tens of thousands of km range with its weapons (heavy beam weapons, at least. Smaller ones probably in the hundreds/ low thousands of km range). Firepower wise, they seem capable of at least several tens of TW from their heavy beam weapons (with durations of at least 2-3 seconds), and several tens of TJ per shot from the pulse cannons (maybe 4-6 pulses per volley).

Combined firepower is probably comparable to the White Star (In Movements of Fire and Shadow, it was noted that the White Star's performance was comparable to vessels five or six times its own size - stated as being employed against cruisers as well as destroyers.) - giving it sustained firepower in the hundreds or thousands of TJs range.

(for an idea of low-end firepower, I used Ted C's "firepower spreadsheet" - found here:

http://www.thehedgemaze.com/tcollins/Sc ... ations.xls

As I recall from the WS/Defiant thread, Fed weapons maybe are at best in the tens of TW for phasers (sustained output - I assumed 500 GW phasers from Enterprise and scaled up an assumed 2 orders of magnitude to account for "later" timeframe) - hundreds perhaps if they "overload" them. Torpedoes maybe 1-2 megatons tops (I assumed torps were an order of magnitude or so higher than "overloaded" phasers.) - however, things suggest this is perhaps overgenerous.

Range wise, the Federation *should* be able to nullify this by using warp to get in closer - although getting close (which usually seems to be a few km) may give them problems using torpedoes (IIRC there was a TNG ep where using torpedoes at "close range" risked damaging the Enterprise from the backblast.) Phaser NDF is going to be a problem for the unshielded Omega (and interceptors will probably be of only limited effectiveness.) Alternatively, if the Feds are able to use their full weapons range with phasers, they can no doubt pick them off at leisure (they seem to have an order of magnitude greater range with their phasers - torpedoes may be problematical at longer ranges due to interception fire.)

Fighters, depending on the type, may be of use (especially if they carry missiles and the Omega knocks down their shields) in taking out key systems - and if the "lower" figures for Trek are used, they may even be able to inflict some direct damage.

For the most part, it will probably be difficult for the Agamemnon to win this, but not tremendously so (particularily if we use the low kiloton/sub kiloton figures.)

Here's another interesting question. Will either side neccesarily fight to the death? Picard doesnt really strike me as the ballsy type - Sheridan will do it though, especially if outgunned.

[consequences]

When it comes down to it, Sheridan will attempt to ram, and if Picard is silly enough to let it happen, the scenario ends with both ships destroyed.
Hwever, this is an instance where transporter shenanigans have at least the possibility of succeeding.

[Connor MacLeod]

When it comes down to it, Sheridan will attempt to ram, and if Picard is silly enough to let it happen, the scenario ends with both ships destroyed.
However, this is an instance where transporter shenanigans have at least the possibility of succeeding.

I forgot the transporters. That will no doubt cause a problem (unless somethign on the Omega interferes with them - which is not entirely unreasonable either )

I doubt the Omega will pull off a ramming. In both Severed Dreams and Endgame, we're treated to Omega-ramming incidents, and they are LUDICROUSLY slow (hundreds of meters per second, at the most optimistic best.) Even Picard should know well enough to evade a ramming attack unless the Enterprise is somehow immobilized, incapacitated, or virtually point-blank (like UNDER a kilometer.)

[kojikun]

no shields = no chance

[Connor MacLeod]

no shields = no chance

Oh yes, even if the Omega has more firepower (remember the "Depending on teh calcs you use" bit?) it won't matter because it "lacks shields."

Yep, those shields make ALL the difference. Might as well go ahead and claim that Omega beams won't even penetrate the nav deflectors.

[Sam Or I]

I think the Whitestar would take out the Defiant
The Enterprise would take out the Agamemnon

A whitestar packs almost as much punch as an Omega, while being able to perform better than some fighters
The Defiant does not come close to the Eneterprise E.

[Sir Sirius]

The Omegas have potential thousands/tens of thousands of km range with its weapons (heavy beam weapons, at least. Smaller ones probably in the hundreds/ low thousands of km range).

Where is this info coming from?
A Whitestar max effective range is less then 300km as seen in "War Without End". Is there any reason to assume that an Omega has far greater range then a much more advanced Whitestar?

[Connor MacLeod]

Where is this info coming from?

In part, weapons comparisons in B5 Wars. But mostly from LOTR (Liandra's pulse cannons have an effective range of 10,000 km - the statement was indicated to suggest "overall" weapons range. The Excalibur had a similar range with its beams in ACTA.)

In "The Long Road" from Crusade, the Excalibur was able to destroy a target from geostationary orbit - something the Omega could not do, which establishes an upper limit of 36,000 km. Given the Narn can do so below, that suggests that EA should be capable (The Narn need not have been geostationary in the example.)

Additionally, we know Narn ships can bombard planets - and theier weapons and technology are on par with EA (both observation in the show, the fact hte Narns sold weapons tech to EA, and from B5 Wars weapons comparisons) - this alone suggests thousands of km should be a comparable weapons range.

B5 Wars suggests that the Omega's beam weapons have ro ughly 3x the range of most any pulse weapon (Except perhaps heavy pulse cannon, which seems to be 2x the medium or molecular pulse cannon - which are probably the closest equivalent ot WS guns the Liandra has) which suggests an upper limit around 30,000 to 20,000 km for heavy weapons - well within the limits established above.

And to top it off, JMS in this: (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/Comp ... 8/191.html)
suggests the Narns were thousands of KM apart in TLTS - which again suggests that EA should be capable of similar, for aforementioned reasons.

A Whitestar max effective range is less then 300km as seen in "War Without End". Is there any reason to assume that an Omega has far greater range then a much more advanced Whitestar?

it was 3000 km, and that was against a WS-sized bomb on manual (with Ivanova firing.) A bomb is not a starship, even if it is large. The Liandra example at least would be applicable to the White Star, since both are Minbari-made vessels of similar size with similar armament.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Also, the Enterprise has the acceleration advantage. The Agamemnon has no inertia dampening system so her crew can't accelerate faster than 3 g's and an occasional 10 g burst. The Enterprise can accelerate much faster and without the g-forces that comes with accelerating that fast.

[Connor MacLeod]

Also, the Enterprise has the acceleration advantage. The Agamemnon has no inertia dampening system so her crew can't accelerate faster than 3 g's and an occasional 10 g burst. The Enterprise can accelerate much faster and without the g-forces that comes with accelerating that fast.

Thank you for restating the obvious (you might have noticed I already indicated this, Einstein.) but contributing no useful details otherwise (which is typical for your debate posts)

[Crossover_Maniac]

You're welcome, asshole.

[SyntaxVorlon]

The Aggie could if it fired first, which neither captain would do but for the situation, then it could completely knock out the shields, as was stated in TNG the E-D's shields are not capable of handling more than a few TW if that much. And the Aggie is well capable of dishing out that sort of punishment. If given several seconds advantage, the Aggie could make it through the shields. Also if the Aggie was aware of what parts could fire it would knock out the E-D's firepower. But this all requires a few seconds of advantage time for the Aggie. Even without the advantage, the Aggie could fire on the section that houses the Warp core and blast through it.

The E-D has the power to destroy the Omega if it can, evade fire and circle strafe around to the Aggie's engines, and use phasers to cut through. But remember the firepower of the Aggie's AA guns would be extremely detrimental to the E-D.

I say this would end in a stalemate, if not going completely for the Aggie.

[Connor MacLeod]

You're welcome, asshole.

Hmm.. inability to present actual proof to back up one's arguments.. losing one's temper when someone refuses to buy your bullshit.. yep its you alright. How long before you decide to run away and crawl back into your hidey hole at SB hmm?