nBSG Cylons vs Borg What are Your Thoughts?
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nBSG Cylons vs Borg What are Your Thoughts?
This spacebattle idea has been tumbling around in my head for a while, and I decided to put it out here to get your thoughts.
The Players:
Side A: The Borg (Sounds Swedish)
These clumsy Cybernetic characters,
(I ran out of alliterative phrases, so sue me,)
have attempted to assimilate humanity multipule times. The have not succeded, frequently due to acts of plot, and overly elaborate plans. (See ST:FC.)
Their ships are advanced, and can adapt to different weapons, but it is not known how effective they are at repelling nuclear weapons, and the EMP that goes with it. (possibly shutting off drones.)
They can also travel at transwarp velocities.
The drones themselves, after showing a considerable resistance to energy weapons proved to be surprisingly vulnerable to projectile weaponry (also se ST:FC) the type of weaponry carried by Cylon Centurions.
They may be vulnerable to computer viruses.
Side B: The Cylons (they have some sort of plan-thingy)
They actually Succeded in wiping out most of humanity through a relatively simple plan featuring 'Honey traps,' espionage and computer hacking, followed by Nukes.
Lots and lots of Nukes.
The Cylon Baseships, while little more than massive, (and fairly lightly armored) missile carriers and docking hubs (Each Basestar can carry approx 792 avaliable fighters, Raiders) is capable of making a Faster-Than-Light Jump.
As are their Raiders. Which can also carry at least three nukes, and calculate jumps with remarkable alacrity.
The FTL jump gives the Cylons a large Tactical advantage.
They can dispense, and are vulnerable to computer viruses, see: "Flight of the Phoenix," "Miniseries."
The Cylons are Considerably less advanced than the Borg, although the Borgh are vulnerable to "lower Tech" weapons such as firearms, and possibly the EMP from nukes.
Scenario One:
By act of Q, the Cylon forces, (all of them are sent to a deserted part of the Delta Quadrant, They have Five years to build up before the Borg discover them. Assume reasonable quantities of Tylium, and other natural resources.
Scenario Two:
By another act of Q, a Borg tertiary unicomplex ( a small base I just made up, DS9-sized) and twenty cubes is transported into a deserted spot in Galactica-verse. They detect long-term radio traffic from the Cylons, but are Three years away at maximum Warp.
What Happens?
Get thinking, adn preferably writing, as well...
Assume reasonable ammounts of natural resources.
The Players:
Side A: The Borg (Sounds Swedish)
These clumsy Cybernetic characters,
(I ran out of alliterative phrases, so sue me,)
have attempted to assimilate humanity multipule times. The have not succeded, frequently due to acts of plot, and overly elaborate plans. (See ST:FC.)
Their ships are advanced, and can adapt to different weapons, but it is not known how effective they are at repelling nuclear weapons, and the EMP that goes with it. (possibly shutting off drones.)
They can also travel at transwarp velocities.
The drones themselves, after showing a considerable resistance to energy weapons proved to be surprisingly vulnerable to projectile weaponry (also se ST:FC) the type of weaponry carried by Cylon Centurions.
They may be vulnerable to computer viruses.
Side B: The Cylons (they have some sort of plan-thingy)
They actually Succeded in wiping out most of humanity through a relatively simple plan featuring 'Honey traps,' espionage and computer hacking, followed by Nukes.
Lots and lots of Nukes.
The Cylon Baseships, while little more than massive, (and fairly lightly armored) missile carriers and docking hubs (Each Basestar can carry approx 792 avaliable fighters, Raiders) is capable of making a Faster-Than-Light Jump.
As are their Raiders. Which can also carry at least three nukes, and calculate jumps with remarkable alacrity.
The FTL jump gives the Cylons a large Tactical advantage.
They can dispense, and are vulnerable to computer viruses, see: "Flight of the Phoenix," "Miniseries."
The Cylons are Considerably less advanced than the Borg, although the Borgh are vulnerable to "lower Tech" weapons such as firearms, and possibly the EMP from nukes.
Scenario One:
By act of Q, the Cylon forces, (all of them are sent to a deserted part of the Delta Quadrant, They have Five years to build up before the Borg discover them. Assume reasonable quantities of Tylium, and other natural resources.
Scenario Two:
By another act of Q, a Borg tertiary unicomplex ( a small base I just made up, DS9-sized) and twenty cubes is transported into a deserted spot in Galactica-verse. They detect long-term radio traffic from the Cylons, but are Three years away at maximum Warp.
What Happens?
Get thinking, adn preferably writing, as well...
Assume reasonable ammounts of natural resources.
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Borg have sheilds, and they win due to that simple, yet stupid advantage.
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The Borg have shields - in fact, they have very, very good shields. Good enough to take any sort of pounding Cylon nukes can lay on. And Basestars are not maneuverable craft, and considering how they lit up when the Beast fired on them, Borg phasers and lasers should cut them up like thanksgiving roasts.
More, the Borg have a serious numbers advantage; they have several thousand craft, and a huge industrial base, if what we saw in Scorpion was on the level of average losses in a day against 8472 for them. Meanwhile, if the Cylons could only possible have triumphed over the Colonies with their sneaky nukes and hacking, they probably have less than 120 Basestars.
In short, the Borg rape the Cylons and leave them whimpering and assimilated. Hell, the Borg just might actually learn something from assimilation this time.
More, the Borg have a serious numbers advantage; they have several thousand craft, and a huge industrial base, if what we saw in Scorpion was on the level of average losses in a day against 8472 for them. Meanwhile, if the Cylons could only possible have triumphed over the Colonies with their sneaky nukes and hacking, they probably have less than 120 Basestars.
In short, the Borg rape the Cylons and leave them whimpering and assimilated. Hell, the Borg just might actually learn something from assimilation this time.
The cylons have demonstrated the abilty to hack computers in a closed wired network in galactica from some distance away.
The borg seem to form some kind of pan-galactic wifi network and exhibit the trekverse's habitual lack of computer security precautions.
Is there any reason the cylons wouldn't completely compromise the borg's systems within minutes of first contact?
The borg seem to form some kind of pan-galactic wifi network and exhibit the trekverse's habitual lack of computer security precautions.
Is there any reason the cylons wouldn't completely compromise the borg's systems within minutes of first contact?
This is a very real possibility. In the TNG episode "Hugh", the crew of the Enterprise-D discover that they can obliterate the entire collective simply by inserting some sort of feedback loop into the neural network of a captured Borg and sending it back to its brethren. Of course, they don't end up doing it, but it does demonstrate that the Borg Collective is extremely susceptible to program-based invasion. It is possible that the crew may have been mistaken in their assumptions about the Borg's network, but the fact that a single drone with a sense of individuality can disrupt the hive mind connection of an entire cube or more when reintroduced does not bode well for them.Plekhanov wrote:Is there any reason the cylons wouldn't completely compromise the borg's systems within minutes of first contact?
Aren't they eventually able to hack some of the Galactica's systems, despite the fact that they are too old to have been modified by the Cylons?Stark wrote:Didn't they need to get backdoors installed first?
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I don't recall but even if they did when taking on the 12 Colonies systems which were build with an awareness of system security and had firewalls and so forth that wouldn't necessarily mean they'd need them with the borg who's systems were so bad that event the Federation could compromise them.Stark wrote:Didn't they need to get backdoors installed first?
Before Voyager, I would've said Geordi was full of shit about the geometric shape, and that Hugh only affected a small part of the collective, the part that Lore went after.
After Voyager, I don't know. I think the Queen plays a part in this, bringing order to chaos. If the collective starts getting fucked up she can use her personal willpower to override whatever viruses or hack there is. The Cylons have not dealt with a network the scale of the collective before. The Borg can learn -- they isolated all their critical systems so Data couldn't access weapons, shields, and had to go a different route. It's hard to imagine the Federation wouldn't exploit the same vulnerability come Borg Cube Mk. II, so the Borg do patch holes.
To me it all comes down to whether the Queen(s) get involved. If they do then any programming annoyance would be trivial. The Queen would angrily destroy any infected cubes, and sacrifice whatever it took to maintain control of her minions, even if it meant destroying whole Borg fleets with other Borg. Scenario One probably ends up in Cylon assimilation or destruction, and Scenario Two ends up in Borg killing each other in a frenzy if there is a loophole.
After Voyager, I don't know. I think the Queen plays a part in this, bringing order to chaos. If the collective starts getting fucked up she can use her personal willpower to override whatever viruses or hack there is. The Cylons have not dealt with a network the scale of the collective before. The Borg can learn -- they isolated all their critical systems so Data couldn't access weapons, shields, and had to go a different route. It's hard to imagine the Federation wouldn't exploit the same vulnerability come Borg Cube Mk. II, so the Borg do patch holes.
To me it all comes down to whether the Queen(s) get involved. If they do then any programming annoyance would be trivial. The Queen would angrily destroy any infected cubes, and sacrifice whatever it took to maintain control of her minions, even if it meant destroying whole Borg fleets with other Borg. Scenario One probably ends up in Cylon assimilation or destruction, and Scenario Two ends up in Borg killing each other in a frenzy if there is a loophole.
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Remember, the Federation also expected Hugh to spread individuality throughout the Collective and wipe out the Borg.
Didn't go so well. All they got was one Cube, as far as we know.
Also, in 'Best of Both Worlds', they managed to shut down the Borg cube, yet in First Contact, afaik, either the tactic didn't work or they didn't even try it.
Also considering that it's likely that Voyager would either know about or figure out that Feedback loop during their long sojourn(despite their incompetence, that crew could make up maths like a motherfucker), or one chucklehead in the battle in First Contact would try it (you'd think someone would get the idea to fucking save Earth with this program), this presents an interesting idea.
Everytime Starfleet's pulled a Deus Ex Machina hacking out of their ass to mess with the Borg's AI, it's pretty much worked to defeat one Cube, and no others. Thus, it seems likely that the Borg might have some kind of anti-hacking measuresw built in, either being able to insulate the Collective once one ship has been neutralised, or possibly adapting (since that's their thing) to new cyber-threats once one Cube has suffered the effects and given enough informtion on whatever's attacking their systems to fight it.
At least, that's my theory. I think it neatly explains why no one ever tries previous tricks on the Borg and fits their whole 'Adaptation' schtick, with good backing evidence.
So in short, I don't think the Cylons could just infect the Borg. Dudes have tried that before. Stupider dudes, of course, but ones whose ships don't have to obey Newton's laws, either, so take it or leave it.
Didn't go so well. All they got was one Cube, as far as we know.
Also, in 'Best of Both Worlds', they managed to shut down the Borg cube, yet in First Contact, afaik, either the tactic didn't work or they didn't even try it.
Also considering that it's likely that Voyager would either know about or figure out that Feedback loop during their long sojourn(despite their incompetence, that crew could make up maths like a motherfucker), or one chucklehead in the battle in First Contact would try it (you'd think someone would get the idea to fucking save Earth with this program), this presents an interesting idea.
Everytime Starfleet's pulled a Deus Ex Machina hacking out of their ass to mess with the Borg's AI, it's pretty much worked to defeat one Cube, and no others. Thus, it seems likely that the Borg might have some kind of anti-hacking measuresw built in, either being able to insulate the Collective once one ship has been neutralised, or possibly adapting (since that's their thing) to new cyber-threats once one Cube has suffered the effects and given enough informtion on whatever's attacking their systems to fight it.
At least, that's my theory. I think it neatly explains why no one ever tries previous tricks on the Borg and fits their whole 'Adaptation' schtick, with good backing evidence.
So in short, I don't think the Cylons could just infect the Borg. Dudes have tried that before. Stupider dudes, of course, but ones whose ships don't have to obey Newton's laws, either, so take it or leave it.
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okay, moving on.
How 'bout ground combat?
Cylon Centurions vs Borg Drones.
It's a bit hard to assimalate an all-metal double-machinegun armed killing machine.
If they beam over, they make nice targets. That's about it.
Also, skinjobs are rather stronger than humans.
Oh. How about nukes anbd EMP effecting cybernetic systems?
I don't know as much about that as I should.
How 'bout ground combat?
Cylon Centurions vs Borg Drones.
It's a bit hard to assimalate an all-metal double-machinegun armed killing machine.
If they beam over, they make nice targets. That's about it.
Also, skinjobs are rather stronger than humans.
Oh. How about nukes anbd EMP effecting cybernetic systems?
I don't know as much about that as I should.
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We can actually put some math into this. I'm way too fucking lazy to do it, but if someone has the ST:FC DVD, they can see how many taps Data makes and assume at least a minimal ASCII character set if generous, or just the alphabet if not. And even look at the screenshot. Then you can see how long a password Data made, and make an upper limit for Borg brute-force hack, and assume the Borg hacking is as good as their own passwords at least. I think there's a scene in season one of nBSG where you could do the same thing, looking at the time it took the Cylons to break through firewalls.
Anyway, the main problem is the Centurions. The Borg do armor their drones when fighting projectile weapons, and the bullets from the Centurion's arms are tiny IIRC. They may or may not be enough to stop walking zombies. But even if the zombies do reach them, the Centurions are brutal melee fighters too and there's scenes of them with blood over their claws. The nanoprobes will not work, and even if the Borg start using their disruptors like they did versus 8472, the disruptors would likely be ineffective against metal gargantuans. The Borg would be forced to take extreme measures up to and including destroying their own cubes if a Cylon breaching pod ever broke through. Or, they could just ignore it. Even if a platoon of Centurions ran around chopping up Borg, a cube is fucking huge. The Cylons will be smart enough to go after critical systems though, so I can envision a small group of Centurions responsible for destroying an entire cube if they have time to rampage around.
Of course once the Queen finds out she'll be in a rage, and the Borg will just destroy whatever small pods rush up. I can't imagine these gurellia tactics working more than a handful of times before the Borg wisen up and put all their cubes in one gigantic wall (like they usually do), overlapping fire arcs and making it difficult for breaching pods to penetrate. It'll only take one hit for that Cylon breaching shuttle to go up in smoke, and it's not like a basestar spams a hundred of them.
Anyway, the main problem is the Centurions. The Borg do armor their drones when fighting projectile weapons, and the bullets from the Centurion's arms are tiny IIRC. They may or may not be enough to stop walking zombies. But even if the zombies do reach them, the Centurions are brutal melee fighters too and there's scenes of them with blood over their claws. The nanoprobes will not work, and even if the Borg start using their disruptors like they did versus 8472, the disruptors would likely be ineffective against metal gargantuans. The Borg would be forced to take extreme measures up to and including destroying their own cubes if a Cylon breaching pod ever broke through. Or, they could just ignore it. Even if a platoon of Centurions ran around chopping up Borg, a cube is fucking huge. The Cylons will be smart enough to go after critical systems though, so I can envision a small group of Centurions responsible for destroying an entire cube if they have time to rampage around.
Of course once the Queen finds out she'll be in a rage, and the Borg will just destroy whatever small pods rush up. I can't imagine these gurellia tactics working more than a handful of times before the Borg wisen up and put all their cubes in one gigantic wall (like they usually do), overlapping fire arcs and making it difficult for breaching pods to penetrate. It'll only take one hit for that Cylon breaching shuttle to go up in smoke, and it's not like a basestar spams a hundred of them.
Can we really use examples of hacking from two shows where it's clear NOBODY HAS ANY IDEA ABOUT NETWORK SECURITY? 'Oh noes they broke through out firewallz'
Do Basestars have any decent weapons? The worthless petrolbombs they were lobbing at Galactica in Exodus aren't going to cut any ice with the Borg. What's their nuke inventory like?
Do Basestars have any decent weapons? The worthless petrolbombs they were lobbing at Galactica in Exodus aren't going to cut any ice with the Borg. What's their nuke inventory like?
No, the disruptors are actually standard issue. I don't have screenshots but I can find them. They're just too stupid to use them, and only used them on 8472. And even then we didn't see how they used them, only Kim remarking there'd been disruptor fire on the 8472 ship core. So maybe the Borg didn't use their disruptors at all, except as a cutting tool. That would explain their inaccuracy when Lore ordered them to use them, but when your soldiers are piling up like in Scorpion I guess you use every weapon you've got no matter how ineffective.DrMckay wrote:Oh. and wasn't it only that one cube of Borg under Lore who had arm phaser thingies?
I do not see the Cylons as a threat on the level of 8472, so maybe the Borg will just keep sending drones until the Centurions run out of ammo, then have so many bodies pile up until the Centurions can't move. They have the manpower. Problem is the Borg can always count on biological species getting tired or running out of food or water, but the Centurions could keep hacking and slashing as long as their batteries lasted.
I'm dieing a little inside to say this, but; the Borg take it.
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BSG nukes seem to be in the tens of megatons range, which would make them about as powerful as a quantum torpedo or two. They could probably cause some damage to the cubes, but not enough to seriously mess them up. No idea what effect EMP would have; they've probably had some aliens lobbing nukes/EMP devices at them before and come up with some way to mitigate the effects, but then again this is the Borg we're talking about.DrMckay wrote:Also, no one has mentioned the effect of nukes and EMP on Borg...
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How do you know ? Borg nanoprobes affect inorganics as well as organics. Such as in the Voyager episode where some assimilated a chunk of the med bay, some human DNA and the Doctor's remote to make a "29th century Borg" and the support system to grow him.brianeyci wrote:Anyway, the main problem is the Centurions. The Borg do armor their drones when fighting projectile weapons, and the bullets from the Centurion's arms are tiny IIRC. They may or may not be enough to stop walking zombies. But even if the zombies do reach them, the Centurions are brutal melee fighters too and there's scenes of them with blood over their claws. The nanoprobes will not work,
At least the words "we can just wipe the harddrives and load the prewar images" were used on Battlestar Galactica, which makes the Colonials a gaggle of IT Gurus in comparison to anyone in Star Trek.Stark wrote:Can we really use examples of hacking from two shows where it's clear NOBODY HAS ANY IDEA ABOUT NETWORK SECURITY? 'Oh noes they broke through out firewallz'
Do Basestars have any decent weapons? The worthless petrolbombs they were lobbing at Galactica in Exodus aren't going to cut any ice with the Borg. What's their nuke inventory like?
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This is true, but this is also the show where backdoors allow an enemy with known haxxor skillz to disable fighters in flight, and a group whose answer to 'zomg hax' is to not use networks at all. I mean, christ, get an IT graduate in there, PLEASE. At least someone who can point out the power cord to their wireless routers.Lonestar wrote:At least the words "we can just wipe the harddrives and load the prewar images" were used on Battlestar Galactica, which makes the Colonials a gaggle of IT Gurus in comparison to anyone in Star Trek.
But, there's no denying they're mental giants compared to the Borg. However, I'm not sure there's any evidence they can hack a completely unknown computer system, since they'd infiltrated the Colonials top to bottom and had full knowledge of their defence computer something stupid thanks to Baltar. It's a bit of a jump from that to 'zomg hax cubez', even if ST clearly has zero network security.
Because I take the entire canon into account, and do not take one example of Borg five hundred years down the line. Yes, the Borg can inject nanoprobes into consoles or appear to, but this is not Terminator bullshit (thankfully) where the nanoprobes fly in and take over circuitry like magic. When Seven did that, it could've just as easily been a network connection rather than "injecting nanoprobes" which is the most stupid idea ever. I realize that is the author's intent, to inject nanoprobes and take over circuitry. But it's rather a stupid idea that a nanoscale object can assemble in high enough concentrations to take over a computer. If it were up to me, nanoprobes would never have been invented, and if they were they wouldn't be called nanoprobes but just a paralysis agent, not uber micro machines on the scale of Stargate replicators. It is not up to me, but that doesn't mean we have to interpret nanoprobes as uber micro machines, which is the most non-parsimonious interpretation there is, no matter the author's intent.Lord of the Abyss wrote:How do you know ? Borg nanoprobes affect inorganics as well as organics. Such as in the Voyager episode where some assimilated a chunk of the med bay, some human DNA and the Doctor's remote to make a "29th century Borg" and the support system to grow him.brianeyci wrote:Anyway, the main problem is the Centurions. The Borg do armor their drones when fighting projectile weapons, and the bullets from the Centurion's arms are tiny IIRC. They may or may not be enough to stop walking zombies. But even if the zombies do reach them, the Centurions are brutal melee fighters too and there's scenes of them with blood over their claws. The nanoprobes will not work,
But of course the key point is the nanotubes would have to penetrate the Centurion's armor, which we see resist non-explosive rounds with not a scratch, suggesting high tensile strength.
As for wiping hard drives and loading old data, Geordi figured that out one time (incredible I know) to load information from protected archives. Stark is right, it's a leap to say Cylons can take over Borg cubes when both their depictions of computer security are either falsehoods or expect extreme stupidity on their opponents' side. Might as well say the Borg compromised Federation computers easily, so they can stop the Cylons.
It should be quite an advantage to flit in and out of real space. The raiders apparently can make rapid jumps. Unfortunately, much like the much-derided "well the Federation can just beam a PT on board the enemy ship! LOLZ!", we never actually see the cylons use this in combat. Stupid, but there it is.DrMcKay wrote:Cylon FTL? How effective would that be in close combat? as a tactical advantage...
Gods, that's stupid. Not you Brian, the writers. These kinds of inconsistencies are obnoxious... why the hell do the borg hardly ever use their disruptors? It's almost like the writers want us to think the borg are stupid.brianeyci wrote:No, the disruptors are actually standard issue.
Still, do disruptors have the same "packing crate" problem as phasers? Not sure that's do much against cylon armor, which is dense enough to take small arms fire handily. And I think centurions would make up for their low-caliber weapon by the sheer volume of fire they seem to be able to put out (the one "shooting at" Helo in the little diner where he and Boomer were hiding totally shreds the place).
No EMP in a vacuum, as others have brought up. The 50MT nukes mentioned in the miniseries were used against a city, and we know the cylons pretty much blanketed the surface of Caprica from the bursts we see in the miniseries shots of Caprica from space (although maybe they were using neutron bombs or something, because the structures seem pretty intact).DaveJB wrote:BSG nukes seem to be in the tens of megatons range, which would make them about as powerful as a quantum torpedo or two. They could probably cause some damage to the cubes, but not enough to seriously mess them up. No idea what effect EMP would have
The nukes used by fighters are safely assumed to be 50KT, however, as the trick Lee used to spoof the cylons in the miniseries appeared to be a 50KT blast on sensors -- both the cylons and the colonials were fooled by it, so it's a pretty good assumption that size is typical. We also know that not all raiders typically carry nukes ("radiological alarm!" is noted specifically in several instances when the raiders are packing). In the scenario suggested, the cylons might be able to arm-up the raiders given enough time, which could potentially mean 792 raiders * 3 nukes each * 50kT = ~119 MT total (spread out by however long it takes to spam that many missiles, of course). Not sure if that's enough to overwhelm a cube's shields (we never see point defense by the cubes AFAIK), but that'd represent pretty much the basestar's entire complement... and the cubes regenerate.
Looks like even by the absurdly "best case" numbers the borg take this one easily.
There's a line in the Miniseries that Gaeta clears out the Galactica's banks of Baltar/Six's back-door-riddled defense system. When the Cylons hack in later (Act of Contrition, I think), they hack a network they haven't seen previously. I do also think it's a bit of a jump to "zomg hax" however.Stark wrote:However, I'm not sure there's any evidence they can hack a completely unknown computer system, since they'd infiltrated the Colonials top to bottom and had full knowledge of their defence computer something stupid thanks to Baltar. It's a bit of a jump from that to 'zomg hax cubez', even if ST clearly has zero network security.
They may be able to do it to one, but it's probably possible to overload the defense system. 792 raiders/ basestar * 2 nukes /raider ~= 1600 nukes. Have the raiders drop in at short range, launch both nukes, and then jump again. It's unlikely that a cube will be able to take out all of the nukes before they detonate.Destructionator XIII wrote:TNG's photon torpedoes were pretty consistantly useless against the Borg; I figure they must shoot them down before impacting the cube or something like that. If that is true, they could do the same to an incoming nuclear missile.DaveJB wrote:BSG nukes seem to be in the tens of megatons range, which would make them about as powerful as a quantum torpedo or two.
Anyway, I'm fairly certain we've seen photon torpedoes impact against the shields of a cube. I think it was in one of the movies.
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