some WH:40K Imperium military question

[Lord Revan]

so these are for story idea I got.

ok first how would space marine address(aka talk to ) to another space marine from a different chapter....

1. if they of equal rank?

2. if the marine being adressed was of lower rank then the the other marine?

3. if the marine being adressed was of higher rank then the other marine?


second same questions but the chapter the marine being adressed is from is the Grey Knights?


third same basic questions but instead of another marine the person being addressed is a Adepta Soritas trooper/officer?


fourth again same basic questions but the person being adressed is an imperial guardsman (or an IG officer)?

[Pulp Hero]

I believe equal rank from different chapter call eachother "Brother" and when adressing a higher rank something like "Yes, Brother Sergeant", to a lower rank still just "Brother".

Don't know about the Grey Knights question.

Sisters of Battle, would be "Sister"

And to IG it would just be the normal rank, ie-"Guardsman" or "Captain".

Of course different chapters would also probably act differently as well.

[Feil]

so these are for story idea I got.

1. if they of equal rank?

"Brother" or "Chaptername" or "Son of Primarchname"

2. if the marine being adressed was of lower rank then the the other marine?

Same as above, with emphasis on the latter two.

3. if the marine being adressed was of higher rank then the other marine?

Any of the above, plus "Brother-Rank" or "title" or "Lord", depending on the degree of rank difference and the degree to which the chapters respect one another. For instance, a battle brother of the Dark Angels is unlikely to address a Space Wolf as anything but "Space Wolf" or "Sergeant/Captain" unless he's talking to the chapter master. On the other hand, a White Consul might address an Ultramarine exactly as another Ultramarine might.

second same questions but the chapter the marine being adressed is from is the Grey Knights?

"Why, noble Astartes, I do not recognize the device on thy pauldro-hurk! Gasp. Iihhhh..."

or

GK: "Greetings, brother sergeant. Your squad is sequestered by the Ordo Malleus to aid us in the destruction of the foul Chaos menace!"

SM: "Fuck you, shinybitch." BAM!

GK: Hurk! Gasp. Iihhhh...

third same basic questions but instead of another marine the person being addressed is a Adepta Soritas trooper/officer?

"Sister" / "Rank" / "TypeofSister" / "Daughter of the Emperor".

fourth again same basic questions but the person being adressed is an imperial guardsman (or an IG officer)?

Anything he wants. The Astartes is the grandson-by-adoption and grandson-by-blood of God Himself. Guardsmen, even the highest ranking, are mere mortals. I'm fond of the completely unofficial "child(ren) or Terra", but address-by-rank would be common, I suspect.

[Stormbringer]

second same questions but the chapter the marine being adressed is from is the Grey Knights?

"Why, noble Astartes, I do not recognize the device on thy pauldro-hurk! Gasp. Iihhhh..."

or

GK: "Greetings, brother sergeant. Your squad is sequestered by the Ordo Malleus to aid us in the destruction of the foul Chaos menace!"

SM: "Fuck you, shinybitch." BAM!

GK: Hurk! Gasp. Iihhhh...

I have no idea what all that babble is meant to be about. But a Grey Knight would still recieve the deference due a brother Space Marine. And with the fact that the Inquisition or their representatives would be along to feel the "regular" Marines in on the details, it might be a bit tense but neither side is likely to do anything stupid. The Grey Knights are not well known but other Chapters have worked with them, First Armageddon being a prime example, and they're given the respect and honor due a fellow Marine.

Any conversation would follow the usual rules of formality between Marine Chapters.

fourth again same basic questions but the person being adressed is an imperial guardsman (or an IG officer)?

Anything he wants. The Astartes is the grandson-by-adoption and grandson-by-blood of God Himself. Guardsmen, even the highest ranking, are mere mortals. I'm fond of the completely unofficial "child(ren) or Terra", but address-by-rank would be common, I suspect.

The Guard correctly regard the Space Marines with a heaping of respect, awe, and a good dose of fear. But while the awe remains, in most cases they have to work with Space Marines on a practical basis. We've seen such occasions and address by the formal ranks, as well as a deferential and respectful attitude, is the usual order of business.

Of course some of the gung-ho psychos in the Adeptus Astares may require more. But those would need to be discussed on a Chapter by Chapter basis.

[Feil]

I have no idea what all that babble is meant to be about. But a Grey Knight would still recieve the deference due a brother Space Marine. And with the fact that the Inquisition or their representatives would be along to feel the "regular" Marines in on the details, it might be a bit tense but neither side is likely to do anything stupid. The Grey Knights are not well known but other Chapters have worked with them, First Armageddon being a prime example, and they're given the respect and honor due a fellow Marine.

I had been under the impression that those who the Grey Knights took as 'allies' tended to end up dead one way or another, more often than not at the hands of the Grey Knights after their usefulness had expired?

[NecronLord]

Marines don't. But were, in old fluff, subject to a possible mindwipe after the mission if there was a risk of contamination.

[Lost Soal]

Astartes are far too valuable and will only be killed if they have suffere4d irreparable mental damage. Astartes drafted in for daemon cleansing are supposed to undergo a mind wipe before being returned to their chapter to begin relearning, however the fact that Logan Grimnar is still Great Wolf and holds the Inquisition in contempt for their actions after the First War of Armageddon, this isn't a must follow rule and will depend on circumstances.

[Stormbringer]

I had been under the impression that those who the Grey Knights took as 'allies' tended to end up dead one way or another, more often than not at the hands of the Grey Knights after their usefulness had expired?

No.

Even under the old fluff for which that was true, which has steadily been overwritten, a Space Marine was not killed as a matter of routine. They were usually ordered mindwiped and returned to their Chapter. Only in cases of taint were they ever executed.

Of course now days that's largely gone. Space Marines are played up as being tougher and more resilient, daemons are less powerful and more numerous, and the knowledge of the true nature of Chaos way more widespread. The fluff has changed greatly so that now even Guardsmen can and do survive encounters with at least lesser daemons with out being mindwiped or killed. The old fluff is simply no longer valid.

That said, the Grey Knights are generally called in on the worst of the worst situations and so there is a greater risk of contamination. So mindwiping and mass executions still do happen but not nearly as often.

however the fact that Logan Grimnar is still Great Wolf and holds the Inquisition in contempt for their actions after the First War of Armageddon

Wait, what? Where is that from? Because as I understand it, the Space Wolves looked on the Grey Knights and the Malleus pretty favorably after a whole company's worth of Grey Knights died banishing Angron. I'm not sure that extends to the rest of the Inquisition in general but I don't know of anything suggesting naked contempt.

[Lost Soal]

however the fact that Logan Grimnar is still Great Wolf and holds the Inquisition in contempt for their actions after the First War of Armageddon

Wait, what? Where is that from? Because as I understand it, the Space Wolves looked on the Grey Knights and the Malleus pretty favorably after a whole company's worth of Grey Knights died banishing Angron. I'm not sure that extends to the rest of the Inquisition in general but I don't know of anything suggesting naked contempt.

After the war was over, the Inquisition ordered every loyal citizen who survived rounded up, sterilised and shipped to a camp in a remote region of the planet to work and die. Most of these people had also faught against the invasion along side the other loyalist forces.
The whole planet was then repopulated from other planets.

[Stormbringer]

After the war was over, the Inquisition ordered every loyal citizen who survived rounded up, sterilised and shipped to a camp in a remote region of the planet to work and die. Most of these people had also faught against the invasion along side the other loyalist forces.
The whole planet was then repopulated from other planets.

I believe that's been heavily retconned then as last I heard, the official line was that they simply did that to those living the warp-tainted areas of Armageddon. The current fluff certainly doesn't fit with the idea that they repopulated Armageddon entirely a matter of a few generations ago.

My guess is that's semi-discarded fluff from the Space Wolf: Rebel without a Clue era.

[NecronLord]

That was republished in a somewhat recent WD biography of Logan Grimnar, a few years ago.

[Feil]

Alrighty, then. Conceeded on all points.

[Stormbringer]

That was republished in a somewhat recent WD biography of Logan Grimnar, a few years ago.

Which doesn't really solve the problem of it not fitting with other peices of continuity. At best it shows that GW has gotten even lazier about editing.

[white_rabbit]

I believe that's been heavily retconned then as last I heard, the official line was that they simply did that to those living the warp-tainted areas of Armageddon. The current fluff certainly doesn't fit with the idea that they repopulated Armageddon entirely a matter of a few generations ago.

Its not so unlikely, and certainly transplanting vast populations isn't a problem for the Imperium, they did it for Medusa and didn't even have the benefit of pre-existing infrastructure, they had to built the hive structures in a matter of month's while housing millions in temporary accomodation.

Besides, I don't think there were that many left of the population to begin with.

The Battle for Armageddon sourcebook indicates that the population of Armageddon Prime, the most densely populated region was utterly exterminated, or otherwise turned to chaos.

The GK's only shanked Angron after he had begun his assault on Secundus region.

It also makes mention on having to repopulate the planet after the devastation, so I don't think the murder/working to death of the remaining citizens is a difficult fit to the rest of the background.

[Lost Soal]

In ways the sourcebook helps support the idea, since the official record stops before the Grey Knights even arrives, which makes sense as their involvement would be secret, while the researcher is unable to get any info on the events despite the fact that with juvenant treatment some of the nobles should still be alive and providing comments on the war. Further more their is the discovery of mass graves during the 3rd war, for which anyone who saw them was interrogated then executed

In essence its not been so much retconned as presented as a hole in history which has been shushed up completely.

[Cykeisme]

however the fact that Logan Grimnar is still Great Wolf and holds the Inquisition in contempt for their actions after the First War of Armageddon

Wait, what? Where is that from? Because as I understand it, the Space Wolves looked on the Grey Knights and the Malleus pretty favorably after a whole company's worth of Grey Knights died banishing Angron. I'm not sure that extends to the rest of the Inquisition in general but I don't know of anything suggesting naked contempt.

Logan Grimnar holds the Inquisition in contempt, not the Grey Knights. They're two separate organizations.

The Inquisition are the ones that ordered the population of Armageddon into forced labor, working themselves to death to rebuild the world for the new populace that was shipped in afterward.
The Grey Knights are a chapter who run around banishing demons wherever they appear. They often work with the Ordo Malleus arm of the Inquisition, but are not part of it.

[Connor MacLeod]

I dunno if I quite see an inconsistency between the "Earlier" view of chaos/inquisition/GK and the ""current" one. As someone noted, Chaos (and knowledge of it) seems to be alot more prolific, but Chaos's "power" seems to have diluted somewhat even as its numbers grew. This seems to represent more a change or evolution in the relationship between the Imperium/humanity and chaos than anything else.

Perhpas, for example, it represents a change in tactics. Chaos initially tried fewer, rarer, but more powerful attempts at corruption/infiltration/incursion. Unfortunately, the Inquisition/Grey Knights/etc. proved tooo effective in suppressing/stamping out such corruption (and in rare cases, actually exterminated planets to prevent it from spreading.) Because they were fewer and more isolated in nature, ,the secrets were easier to keep, it was easier to eliminate potential threats or "tainted" individuals associated with such events (such as workers and troops connected with it) and so on and so forth.

Somewhere in the intervening years, someon on the Chaos side got the bright idea that things weren't working. So they tried a different tack. They "spread" their power over a larger area/volume, utilizing greater numbers of smaller and less powerful "chaos" infestations or taints. Soon, this became "standard" for Chaos.

The Imperium can no longer rely on the old tactics: the enemy is too numerou sand too widespread to effectively counter or suppress - the Inquisition (like most organizations in the Imperium) cannot effectively control or garrison or investigate evry single corner of the Imperium at all times, nor can the Navy protect every world simultaneously. Likewise, extermination is no longer a viable optino - worlds (and even large numbers of humans) are simply too valuable to waste in such largge-scale elimination (as the Tyranids and Inquistor Kryptman have demonstrated, and that was a mere "hundreds" of planets IIRc.)

Thus, the Inquisition is forced to change tactics. Fortunately, though, the fact that Chaos has "diluted" probably affords an advantage - you no longer need to be quite so "super strong willed" to resist or defeat chaos. This simplifies the Inquisition's own duties (and they probably break up into the different Ordos as well.) Also, you need to be less "regimented" and "secretive", which tends to also simplify things for you. This of course hs other u nintended benefits (the Imperium gets a rod out of its ass on alot of things, especially.)

We might also infer that perhaps the Emperor's plan for humanity has progressed in the itnervening centuries, s uch that humantiy has developed greater innate resistance to Chaos (or perhaps rather thatn more people are proving stronger willed/resistant to the temptations/lure.) which also helps counter the "weaker" infestations.

[PainRack]

Someone once told me that various Marine Chapters have pissed off the Imperial Guard and its high commanders. It seems to be true, since Dark Crusade shows such an example of the Blood Ravens pissing off the Imperial Guard, but are there others?


Also, can Imperial Guard commanders ever command over SM units, or does any influence the IG have over the SM rests solely on "advice" and "request"?

[Black Admiral]

Someone once told me that various Marine Chapters have pissed off the Imperial Guard and its high commanders. It seems to be true, since Dark Crusade shows such an example of the Blood Ravens pissing off the Imperial Guard, but are there others?

Lord Commander Xarius's long and eloquent tirade about the Crimson Fists attached to his forces spring to mind.

[quoe]Also, can Imperial Guard commanders ever command over SM units, or does any influence the IG have over the SM rests solely on "advice" and "request"?[/quote]

As a rule, they can only make requests of/offer advice to SMs, but generally the Marines are willing to listen.

[Jaevric]

Someone once told me that various Marine Chapters have pissed off the Imperial Guard and its high commanders. It seems to be true, since Dark Crusade shows such an example of the Blood Ravens pissing off the Imperial Guard, but are there others?

The Dark Angels have, on occasion, broken off from battles in order to pursue their own agenda, usually one of the Fallen. I'm certain that tendency wouldn't endear them to the Imperial Guard troops relying on them at all.

Several Chapters are also known to treat IG troopers with a great degree of contempt, further straining relationships--the novel Iron Hands shows they consider even Cadian kasrkin to be pathetic weaklings; the fact that the Iron Hands have powered armor and Space Marine modifications and, if they didn't, would be in just as bad shape as the kasrkin never seems to occur to them.

[andrewgpaul]

There was mention of Space Marines during the Crusade being placed in command of Imperial Army units. This didn't work out so well, as the Marines frequently forgot to take into account the relative frailty of the Army troops.

What did Commander Xarius have to say about the Crimson Fists? Was it merely a comment on their incompetence during the Ork invasion?

I did read a piece of text once, in which an Inquisitor bemoans the unnecessary brutality of a Space Marine chapter in suppressing a revolt (I think he was talking about the White Consuls, but I'm not sure). The Blood Angels have a nasty habit of leaving unexplained missing persons cases in the vicinity of their garrisons.

[Karza]

I did read a piece of text once, in which an Inquisitor bemoans the unnecessary brutality of a Space Marine chapter in suppressing a revolt (I think he was talking about the White Consuls, but I'm not sure).

I think you mean a short story in the 3rd edition space marine codex, page 3. An inquisitor informs his masters about what happened when he asked for help in eliminating a conspiracy by the rulers (Governor and some prominent ministers and officers) of planet Kethra to secede from the Imperium. Basically the plea for help was responded to by the White Panthers SM chapter, who proceeded to destroy the entire planetary defense force in the course of capturing and executing the conspirators, despite the PDF not being actually compromised.

The inquisitor laments that "the Officio Assassinorum did not respond to my request earlier when their Adepts could have easily ended the whole affair quickly and quietly", and later mentions that "It is not as if this incident is without precedent, indeed on many occasions Space Marines have pursued their own campaigns without reference or remit to the authority of the Adeptus Terra".

[andrewgpaul]

Ah, that's the one, yes. Thanks.

[Lord Revan]

BTW what's the avarge size of a PDF force (would 4-5 regiments be oversized)?

[Stormbringer]

BTW what's the avarge size of a PDF force (would 4-5 regiments be oversized)?

It depends on the world in question. PDFs vary greatly from world to world by necessity. In general though a good size world will have a relatively large number of warm bodies in it's PDF (roughly as many as Earth has in the various nations militaries now). But they'll probably be lacking in Imperial level armor, artillery, and various things like communications.