Daleks Vs Idirans Vs Homomda...

[Big Orange]

Which side would win in a close tactical fight between Dalek, Idiran and Homomda warships out in space and their ground forces down below on a generic planet? The Daleks have a saucer flagship similar to the one from "The Parting of the Ways", the Idirans have The Hand of God 137 and the Homomdans have a typical warship that took part in the I/C War. For the ground battle the Daleks, Idirans and Homomdans are split equally between each other, with fifty troops for each rival "team" with each side having access to their "special" infantry weaponry (Daleks can have Time War versions of SWDs and the Idirans will have their gun platforms seen in CP etc).

Who would win?

[The Grim Squeaker]

TW Dalek era would mean tactical time travel, but I can't see it helping them much without a wider arena or strategic context to use this to any real effect. (Unless they can pull of some wacky stunts with it, despite zero shown evidence for that).

The Idirans are toast compared to the Homodan, it's explicit in the books. (The difference is unknown, and may not be excessive by the time of the events of "Consider Phlebas", but the Homodans are superior in every aspect ).

In such a scenario we lack much quantification about Dalek weaponry beyond the ability to blow up planets by mass scattering (Leaving behind cosmic dust - Dalek Empire) and their pre TW cruiser's ability to "Crack this planet in half like an egg". This compares unfavourably to the ability to destroy a planet by BREAKING Too Hard. My bet's on the Homodans, those lovable tri-legged freaks

[NecronLord]

TW Dalek era would mean tactical time travel, but I can't see it helping them much without a wider arena or strategic context to use this to any real effect. (Unless they can pull of some wacky stunts with it, despite zero shown evidence for that).

They're in Dr Who. Time is in flux, it's not multiple timelines, when you change the past, you erase and replace the future.

[The Grim Squeaker]

TW Dalek era would mean tactical time travel, but I can't see it helping them much without a wider arena or strategic context to use this to any real effect. (Unless they can pull of some wacky stunts with it, despite zero shown evidence for that).

They're in Dr Who. Time is in flux, it's not multiple timelines, when you change the past, you erase and replace the future.

Yes, yes, by wacky stunts I mean "Infinite amount of ships from different time points", "Send enemy ship to big bang" or "Stop time", not "go back in time and kill ancestors" (Which wouldn't work here).

I may not have a heart as black as coal, but I do know the basics of Dr.Who temporal mechanics as used by the TL & Daleks

[NecronLord]

Yes, yes, by wacky stunts I mean "Infinite amount of ships from different time points", "Send enemy ship to big bang" or "Stop time", not "go back in time and kill ancestors" (Which wouldn't work here).

Yes, it will. Banks says Time Travel is impossible? Tough titties, it's possible now. That's a lame excuse used on SB to try and construe that the Culture could beat the Time Lords. Even if we disallow that, if the Daleks get the time to have their ship dematerialise and enter the Vortex, they win.

Not least because while they have an understanding of Culture Hyperspace esque four dimensional engineering, their enemies do not have access to the Vortex, and they can sit there and happily transmat the crews out of the other ships. Observe that they, or rather, a human using their technology, managed to transmat the Doctor out of his (hyperspace-esque) TARDIS perfectly happily in The Parting of the Ways.

Of course, whether they'll get that time is another matter. Though combat in CP was a lot slower than in later Culture books, IIRC.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Yes, yes, by wacky stunts I mean "Infinite amount of ships from different time points", "Send enemy ship to big bang" or "Stop time", not "go back in time and kill ancestors" (Which wouldn't work here).

Yes, it will. Banks says Time Travel is impossible? Tough titties, it's possible now.

Eh? I never argued that. Please don't put words in my mouth, I did not mention the lack of TT in the Culture-verse, and I do know the debate rules regarding preserving abilities.

That's a lame excuse used on SB to try and construe that the Culture could beat the Time Lords.

One that I've never argued .

Even if we disallow that, if the Daleks get the time to have their ship dematerialise and enter the Vortex, they win.

What Vortex? this takes place in a "generic planet".

Not least because while they have an understanding of Culture Hyperspace esque four dimensional engineering, their enemies do not have access to the Vortex, and they can sit there and happily transmat the crews out of the other ships.

Transmat's work via time travel? Odd, I thought that they were a simple teleportation beam that worked via atomic disintegration, what with the fact that Rose was teleported by a generic robot used by humans who had absolutely no time travel whatsoever.
In addition, Culture minds work on higher dimensions quite happily (5-7 dimensions as I recall, I'll need to check), although their weaker understanding of the 4th dimension means that this si no garantee against Dalek time based transporters/Transmats (Assuming the Daleks have them).

And a final note - The Dalek Emperor couldn't do Jack or Shit to the Doctor even when said Doctor was walking around in his flagship outside of his Tardis. We didn't see him Transmat the doctor out of the Tardis and the energy converter.

Observe that they, or rather, a human using their technology, managed to transmat the Doctor out of his (hyperspace-esque) TARDIS perfectly happily in The Parting of the Ways.

The Tardis that works so well on cobbled tech that the Titanic rammed a hole in its hull?

[Rye]

What Vortex? this takes place in a "generic planet".

The time vortex, you tit!

[The Grim Squeaker]

What Vortex? this takes place in a "generic planet".

The time vortex, you tit!

Ah, you mean them using their time travel. Sorry for the brainfart NL, I thought you meant something like the Eye of Harmony. (Your lack of detail on how the Time travel would cause their victory confused me).

Still, my question remains - How will fighting at an earlier period help the Daleks?

[Rye]

Can you not read what he wrote? He said the Daleks could retreat to the vortex, stay there, and transmat shit from the culture vessels with impunity.

[Xon]

Transmat's work via time travel? Odd, I thought that they were a simple teleportation beam that worked via atomic disintegration, what with the fact that Rose was teleported by a generic robot used by humans who had absolutely no time travel whatsoever.

The transmat pulled the Doctor & Co over several tens of thousands of years and from somewhere else in the galaxy. I think it would have to envolve some form of time/space manipulation to achive that one.

Also, nothing indicates all Who-verse transporters use atomic disintegration. For example; the Time Lord's Time Scope simply pulls a chunk of space/time from any where and any when in the universe to a location. The contents of the space/time chunk arent altered at all.

In addition, Culture minds work on higher dimensions quite happily (5-7 dimensions as I recall, I'll need to check), although their weaker understanding of the 4th dimension means that this si no garantee against Dalek time based transporters/Transmats (Assuming the Daleks have them).

Physics in Who-verse have 11 dimensions. The Time Lords have basicly mastered most of them as the result of their understanding of time travel.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Can you not read what he wrote? He said the Daleks could retreat to the vortex, stay there, and transmat shit from the culture vessels with impunity.

I didn't realize that he meant going into the Time vortex and transmatting simultaneously, I thought he meant two seperate things.

When have we seen the Daleks do these things simultaneously? (The Emperor Dalek certainly didn't do it). Proof?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Transmat's work via time travel? Odd, I thought that they were a simple teleportation beam that worked via atomic disintegration, what with the fact that Rose was teleported by a generic robot used by humans who had absolutely no time travel whatsoever.

The transmat pulled the Doctor & Co over several tens of thousands of years and from somewhere else in the galaxy. I think it would have to envolve some form of time/space manipulation to achive that one.

Considering that the Time Vortex is in all points in space and time at once, couldn't the Controller have simply plucked him up whenever he passed through that time period? Transporting is easily explained by FTL (and the fact that he passes through the vicinity of Earth constantly).
In addition I re-iterate that the Transmat that we see on the "Weakest link" robot being a space time weapon equipped on a tv personality is rather illogical in terms of technological ability.

Also, nothing indicates all Who-verse transporters use atomic disintegration.

Sory, I take that statement back. It's simply the first thing that jumped into my mind as an example that also leaves behind the dust and vanishing components. Again, my point is that it seems needlessly complicated (Occam's razor, though I may be calling on it wrongly in this matter) to assume that the Transmat has Time travel ("Time Vortex") component, which means that shields can stop it, and it might not be usable while time travelling.

( For example; the Time Lord's Time Scope simply pulls a chunk of space/time from any where and any when in the universe to a location. The contents of the space/time chunk arent altered at all.

It's called a scope? Then what are "Time rams"? That aside, the Daleks had quite inferior technology to the time lords, Quantity and trickery and incompetence, not equal technology caused the MAD.

In addition, Culture minds work on higher dimensions quite happily (5-7 dimensions as I recall, I'll need to check), although their weaker understanding of the 4th dimension means that this si no garantee against Dalek time based transporters/Transmats (Assuming the Daleks have them).

Physics in Who-verse have 11 dimensions. The Time Lords have basicly mastered most of them as the result of their understanding of time travel.

And these are Daleks.

We accept that the three dimensions of space we live in are curved, that space-time describes a hypersphere, just as the two dimensions of length and width on the surface of a totally smooth planet curve in a third dimension to produce a three-dimensional sphere. In the Culture stories, the idea is that - when you imagine the hypersphere which is our expanding universe - rather than thinking of a growing hollow sphere (like a inflating beach-ball, for example), think of an onion.

An expanding onion, certainly, but an onion, nevertheless. Within our universe, our hypersphere, there are whole layers of younger, smaller hyperspheres. And we are not the very outer-most skin of that expanding onion, either; there are older, larger universes beyond ours, too. Between each universe there is something called the Energy Grid (I said this was all fake); I have no idea what this is, but it's what the Culture starships run on. And of course, if you could get through the Energy Grid, to a younger universe, and then repeat the process... now we really are talking about immortality. (This is why there are two types of hyperspace mentioned in the stories; infraspace within our hypersphere, and ultraspace without.)

Now comes the difficult bit; switch to seven dimensions and even our four dimensional universe can be described as a circle. So forget about the onion; think of a doughnut. A doughnut with only a very tiny hole in the middle. That hole is the Cosmic Centre, the singularity, the great initiating fireball, the place the universes come from; and it didn't exist just in the instant our universe came into being; it exists all the time, and it's exploding all the time, like some Cosmic car engine, producing universes like exhaust smoke.

As each universe comes into being, detonating and spreading and expanding, it - or rather the single circle we are using to describe it - goes gradually up the inner slope of our doughnut, like a widening ripple from a stone flung in a pond. It goes over the top of the doughnut, reaches its furthest extent on the outside edge of the doughnut, and then starts the long, contracting, collapsing journey back in towards the Cosmic Centre again, to be reborn...

Or at least it does if it's on that doughnut; the doughnut is itself hollow, filled with smaller ones where the universes don't live so long. And there are larger ones outside it, where the universes live longer, and maybe there are universes that aren't on doughnuts at all, and never fall back in, and just dissipate out into... some form of meta-space? Where fragments of them are captured eventually by the attraction of another doughnut, and fall in towards its Cosmic Centre with the debris of lots of other dissipated universes, to be reborn as something quite different again? Who knows. (I know it's all nonsense, but you've got to admit it's impressive nonsense. And like I said at the start, none of it exists anyway, does it?)

So, either 7 dimensions or an infinity if you consider the alternate universes and Grid-fire etc'. (If I understood it properly).

[Xon]

Considering that the Time Vortex is in all points in space and time at once

The Time Vortex is literially the time dimension represented as a physical dimension. You still need to "travel" though it.

couldn't the Controller have simply plucked him up whenever he passed through that time period? Transporting is easily explained by FTL (and the fact that he passes through the vicinity of Earth constantly).

FTL and time travel is closely linked. There was an entire episode about a human ship somewhere in the local galaxy group & some time in the future, which ramped it's warp drives up high enough to punch dozens of time windows into Earth's distance past.

In addition I re-iterate that the Transmat that we see on the "Weakest link" robot being a space time weapon equipped on a tv personality is rather illogical in terms of technological ability.

The human controller could only directly think thoughts which where against the Dalek's very rarely. I dont think she was sane

the Transmat has Time travel ("Time Vortex") component, which means that shields can stop it, and it might not be usable while time travelling.

There is a lot of secondary evidence in the shows and outright stated in the DW:EU that the Tardis is pseudo-sapient and capable of limited perception of it's own potential futures and capable of directing itself for the most optimium future.

Meaning it is purely posible that the Tardis allowed the Doctor to be transported out so the Dalek's would be revieled.

It's called a scope?

Yup. It scopes chunks of time-space out of location A and moves it to location B. Apparently does bad shit to the structure of the universe.

Then what are "Time rams"?

Time machines which physically ram other time machines

That aside, the Daleks had quite inferior technology to the time lords, Quantity and trickery and incompetence, not equal technology caused the MAD.

Time Lord technology is often used by the Dalek's even if it requires stupidly long plots to trick the Time Lords into helping them.

Like the Dalek's using the Time Lords to burn a galaxy larger than our galaxy into nothing and reform it in a few dozen minutes.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The Time Vortex is literially the time dimension represented as a physical dimension. You still need to "travel" though it.

I stand corrected. Is the Time Vortex the 4th or 5th dimension though? Now there's an interesting question .

FTL and time travel is closely linked.

Except that in the Who verse having FTL and having anything that could be called "Time travel" is not the same thing. (Yes, I know that FTL is time travel, blame the writers ).
The simplest example of this would be species having FTL but not having a "Friendly visit" from the Time lords for researching Time travel.

There was an entire episode about a human ship somewhere in the local galaxy group & some time in the future, which ramped it's warp drives up high enough to punch dozens of time windows into Earth's distance past.

And this is relevant to someone with different technology and circumstances in this scenario how?

The human controller could only directly think thoughts which where against the Dalek's very rarely. I dont think she was sane

True enough, but my point about the robot stands.
There were hundreds of the shows, and the technology needed to equip them all of time travel dumping weapons which wouldn't look bad on a Time Lord weapon-master's resume is still illogical.

There is a lot of secondary evidence in the shows and outright stated in the DW:EU that the Tardis is pseudo-sapient and capable of limited perception of it's own potential futures and capable of directing itself for the most optimium future.

Ye-es, but the current Tardis has been massively re-done, refitted and has been blown to shit.
In the circumstances, and the lack of any evidence of the Daleks even trying it unsuccesfully, I can't see this proposition as a very probable one.

Meaning it is purely posible that the Tardis allowed the Doctor to be transported out so the Dalek's would be revieled.

But unlikely. more likely is that the new Tardis with its malfunctioning shields didn't (The doctor could blow its controls to shit from outside it using a sonic screw-driver via brute force. Where's that shielding? probably working on keeping the door dead-lock sealed from the inside ).

Yup. It scopes chunks of time-space out of location A and moves it to location B. Apparently does bad shit to the structure of the universe.

At least we know why Gallifrey has no cars .

Time machines which physically ram other time machines

sorry , I was thinking of time corridor technology, that thing which works between specific time periods and that the Daleks used to stalemate the TL's for a while until they reached better parity.

Time Lord technology is often used by the Dalek's even if it requires stupidly long plots to trick the Time Lords into helping them.

Poor Daleks and their inferiority comples. They just need to realize that other species are not superior to them .
Also, since when did the OP mention the presence of Time lords? .

Like the Dalek's using the Time Lords to burn a galaxy larger than our galaxy into nothing and reform it in a few dozen minutes.

Now, Now, they only killed all LIFE in that galaxy .

[NecronLord]

What Vortex? this takes place in a "generic planet".

Time Vortex. The swirly thing where the TARDIS goes. The entire time war fleet was capable of entering it.

Transmat's work via time travel? Odd, I thought that they were a simple teleportation beam that worked via atomic disintegration, what with the fact that Rose was teleported by a generic robot used by humans who had absolutely no time travel whatsoever.

The Dalek version is capable of penetrating the TARDIS in flight. Remember, the Doctor just woke up in the Big Brother house, when he'd been standing in the console room just before.

And a final note - The Dalek Emperor couldn't do Jack or Shit to the Doctor even when said Doctor was walking around in his flagship outside of his Tardis. We didn't see him Transmat the doctor out of the Tardis and the energy converter.

No, we didn't. Maybe that's because they were 'hidden in the games' and later on, protected by the extrapolator, which was explicitly stated to prevent transmats humm?

The Tardis that works so well on cobbled tech that the Titanic rammed a hole in its hull?

Are you disputing that the TARDIS is a multi-dimensional object? What with being bigger on the inside than out. And I have a rather strong suspision that there'll be some funky explanation for that.

[NecronLord]

When have we seen the Daleks do these things simultaneously? (The Emperor Dalek certainly didn't do it). Proof?

The Dalek Emperor lauched the entire fleet into the Time Vortex. Thus, his ships are capable of it (RTD on the Time War). The transmats - which were dalek in design, given that no one else new most of them were there - have an ability to snatch objects in a four-dimesnion (+?) object in the Time Vortex. It seems highly likely that if the Transmat works one way (realspace to vortex) it can also work the other (Vortex -> Realspace).

Using the apocrytha, the Time Lords, at least, have weapons capable of being used on normal space objects from the Vortex, too.


Also, the Daleks did not use Time Corridors to 'stalemate' the Time Lords in any source published. They used it, but back then they had other enemies - they were post-Movellan Apocalypse, even.

And Gallifrey has cars. You see flying vehicles in the most recent clip of it.

[NecronLord]

Now, Now, they only killed all LIFE in that galaxy .

Err... No it didn't. Have you actually listened to the Apocalypse Element? It destroyed planets, stars, everything, in a giant fireball.

[LapsedPacifist]

So have the Time Lords or Daleks ever demonstrated tactical FTL or Time Travel in a canon source?


LP

[NecronLord]

So have the Time Lords or Daleks ever demonstrated tactical FTL or Time Travel in a canon source?


LP

We've never seen the Time Lords fight. If you're taking the Apocrytha, yes, they've used such things. Their warships tend not to bother appearing in real time-space unless they wish to show off. In the canon, the Time Lords are beyond such things. They just press a button, and the race they want rid of is locked into a time loop.

The Daleks, definately have the concept of Tactical Time Travel of some sort - they manouver at over C in realspace in The Parting of the Ways, although they don't fight like that, but other than that, no FTL combat in the sense you probably mean, but it should be stressed that the Canon includes maybe, six or so space combat scenes - in that they've launched missions to destroy the Doctor that have followed him into different eras.

It should be stressed that while we know a fair amount about what ships are capable of in terms of sheer destruction, Dr Who has very rarely shown them actually fighting. They're more commonly hovering in the background like the sword of Democles. The Sontaran Armada rarely actually attacks the characters, but it's amazing how often it's 'on its way.'

[The Grim Squeaker]

What Vortex? this takes place in a "generic planet".

Time Vortex. The swirly thing where the TARDIS goes.

OK.

The entire time war fleet was capable of entering it.

Did we actually see them do it, or is their having an alternate method of time travel still open for speculation?

Transmat's work via time travel? Odd, I thought that they were a simple teleportation beam that worked via atomic disintegration, what with the fact that Rose was teleported by a generic robot used by humans who had absolutely no time travel whatsoever.

The Dalek version is capable of penetrating the TARDIS in flight. Remember, the Doctor just woke up in the Big Brother house, when he'd been standing in the console room just before.

True, but that was accomplished by the controller via Plot Device Unknown. The Daleks never managed anything like that against the Doctor, they didn't even think of trying it (As far as we saw).

And a final note - The Dalek Emperor couldn't do Jack or Shit to the Doctor even when said Doctor was walking around in his flagship outside of his Tardis. We didn't see him Transmat the doctor out of the Tardis and the energy converter.

No, we didn't. Maybe that's because they were 'hidden in the games' and later on, protected by the extrapolator, which was explicitly stated to prevent transmats humm?

Allright, that part conceeded, but it still leaves the station itself (Which had Human made shields which effectively stopped the Daleks cold), the part until the Doctor and Jack had the Extrapolator running (Both while on the station and the last second jury rig while in range of the Dalek weapons and in real-space, not even in the vortex).
A case of normal shielding stopping the Daleks (Shields stopping transporters, where have I heard that before ) and a case of the Daleks not managing to do it to a Tardis that wasn't even time travelling and was in range of their (non FTL) torpedoes.

The Tardis that works so well on cobbled tech that the Titanic rammed a hole in its hull?

Are you disputing that the TARDIS is a multi-dimensional object? What with being bigger on the inside than out.

No, the TARDIS is undoubtably multi-dimensional (4-5d I would guess).

And I have a rather strong suspision that there'll be some funky explanation for that.

Same as there was for the TARDIS flying up like a firework in the second Christmas day special? Or the doctor thinking that an earthquake could destroy it/lose it? ("The Impossible planet") . (And Of course their will be an explanation, I merely used that as a convenient example that the TARDIS is jury-rigged out of the metaphorical ass-hole, it can't even stop a sonic screw-driver for PEte's sake ).

[The Grim Squeaker]

Did we actually see them do it, or is their having an alternate method of time travel still open for speculation?

Gah, sorry, I take this back - I misread your subsequent comment .

When have we seen the Daleks do these things simultaneously? (The Emperor Dalek certainly didn't do it). Proof?

The Dalek Emperor lauched the entire fleet into the Time Vortex.

That was the original Armada launched with all the resources of the Dalek empire, was it confirmed that he didn't use some sort of boosting device to launch the fleet into the Vortex and past Gallifrey's defenses, or was it entirely based on each individual ship's own power?

Thus, his ships are capable of it (RTD on the Time War)

I really need to get my hands on those comments sometime...

. The transmats - which were dalek in design, given that no one else new most of them were there

That's rather shaky logic.
"They (untrained administrative flunkies didn't know that the death beam was just a teleportation/transmat ray, and that shows that they didn't understand it".
Did we see comments on it by any of Station V's technicians, scientists, engineers? For all we know it could have been a popularly available technology on Earth or the rest of the galaxy and not Dalek in origin or in technological (5d) capability.

- have an ability to snatch objects in a four-dimesnion (+?) object in the Time Vortex.

When used by a human with an unknown amount of resources and time, and the Daleks themselves failed to repeat this feat before the Doctor had the Extrapolator running.

It seems highly likely that if the Transmat works one way (realspace to vortex) it can also work the other (Vortex -> Realspace).

Questionable. It could be different versions of the Transmat, and we've seen things capable of affecting the TARDIS from one "direction" but not the other or capable of pushing themselves through the vortex. (The Telepath that pulled down the TARDIS for example, Sutek the Destroyer? One of the "Equal to the Time lords" races from the old series...).

Using the apocrytha, the Time Lords, at least, have weapons capable of being used on normal space objects from the Vortex, too.

Sadly, the Apocrypha (You mean the books) is shaky at best, and of questionable Canonical weight. (I'll admit that I don't quite understand the nitty details of the Dr who canon "rulings")

Also, the Daleks did not use Time Corridors to 'stalemate' the Time Lords in any source published. They used it, but back then they had other enemies - they were post-Movellan Apocalypse, even.

My error, conceeded.

And Gallifrey has cars. You see flying vehicles in the most recent clip of it. [/quote
It was a joke, my error, point conceeded.

[NecronLord]

Did we actually see them do it, or is their having an alternate method of time travel still open for speculation?

Not only can Captain Jack's ship travel in it, but yes, they're explicitly stated to have used it.

True, but that was accomplished by the controller via Plot Device Unknown. The Daleks never managed anything like that against the Doctor, they didn't even think of trying it (As far as we saw).

Err. Perhaps you missed their lack of further opportunity. "I'll call it 'Plot device unknown' that way I can just write it off if I don't like it." Jesus.

Allright, that part conceeded, but it still leaves the station itself (Which had Human made shields which effectively stopped the Daleks cold),

"Turn everything up. All transmissions, wide open, full power. Now! Do it!" "What does that do?" "Stops the Daleks from transmatting on board. How did you get on? Did you contact Earth?"

It's literally the first thing he does when he gets back to the Games Station. And for a good reason, too, given that the station was apparently home to various transmat units. Never mind the Daleks' apparent ability to use them without a receiving station.

Same as there was for the TARDIS flying up like a firework in the second Christmas day special?

Nothing special. Back in the day, it took off on a rainbow once, for no apparent reason.

Or the doctor thinking that an earthquake could destroy it/lose it? ("The Impossible planet") .

At no point did he think it was destroyed; if he thought it was destroyed, why would he want to use the lift to go get it?

That was the original Armada launched with all the resources of the Dalek empire, was it confirmed that he didn't use some sort of boosting device to launch the fleet into the Vortex and past Gallifrey's defenses, or was it entirely based on each individual ship's own power?

No data. But given that a Chula Ambulance, that appears to be about 80% empty space was capable of it, and Jack had a 'Vortex Manipulator' that fitted onto his wrist, I think it's a fair bet that it's not all that special.

That's rather shaky logic.

Err. Why? 1. The Daleks created the Games Station. 2. The Daleks were using the games station to send them 'materials' 3. The Daleks didn't want anyone to know they were doing that.

Why would the daleks let anyone in on the fact that they're collecting material. While the humans of the time appear to be utter lemmings, spreading such information beyond the necessary level qualifies as undermining the point of 'hiding, in the dark space.'

Of course it's possible that the Daleks didn't use their own technology. But that would leave the Fourth Human Empire with the technological means to snatch people out of a damaged TARDIS.

Did we see comments on it by any of Station V's technicians, scientists, engineers? For all we know it could have been a popularly available technology on Earth or the rest of the galaxy and not Dalek in origin or in technological (5d) capability.

I'd rather go for the simplicity of the Daleks being able to penetrate a TARDIS than humans being able to do so in the year 200,000. Despite the Time Lords supposedly having been unmatched for ten million years.

When used by a human with an unknown amount of resources and time, and the Daleks themselves failed to repeat this feat before the Doctor had the Extrapolator running.

They didn't need to. He immediately hopped into his ship, and obligingly flew right into their guns for them. From that point on, he was protected by the Extrapolator and/or the Games Station's EM.

Questionable. It could be different versions of the Transmat, and we've seen things capable of affecting the TARDIS from one "direction" but not the other or capable of pushing themselves through the vortex. (The Telepath that pulled down the TARDIS for example, Sutek the Destroyer? One of the "Equal to the Time lords" races from the old series...).

Sutekh was imprisoned by the Eye of Horus. Are you being deliberately obtuse? What's more, what's this meant to prove? He was able to project his thoughts into the TARDIS. That hardly means he would be unable to project his thoughts out of it. We never saw him in such a role. Are you suggesting that just because he can violate the TARDIS mentally, he should be able to move his physical body through the Vortex?

Sadly, the Apocrypha (You mean the books) is shaky at best, and of questionable Canonical weight. (I'll admit that I don't quite understand the nitty details of the Dr who canon "rulings")

There are no such rulings. The line on the matter has consistantly been 'you can take it as canon if you want to.' Which, while amusing for fan satisfaction, is really rather vague for our purpouses.

And no, I also mean the audio-plays, and hell, quite possibly the comics, too.

[Keevan_Colton]

Er, NL...you've just pointed out that enough energy emissions stop Transmat...that's got to render it pretty much on a par with transporters in the weapons stakes doesn't it?

[NecronLord]

Er, NL...you've just pointed out that enough energy emissions stop Transmat...that's got to render it pretty much on a par with transporters in the weapons stakes doesn't it?

Energy emissions by a huge 1500 m+ space station that's dedicated to emitting sensor spoofing signals for the daleks, and transmitting "TV" signals all the way across the galaxy, yes. It was also capable of "jamming" visual light in some manner, to conceal ships not less than thirty astronomical units away.

Just about anything can be disabled if you put out enough energy emissions. The station was also capable of generating a pulse that would wipe out all animal life on the Earth.

Hardly puts them in the same league as Trekporters, now, does it?

[Keevan_Colton]

Er, NL...you've just pointed out that enough energy emissions stop Transmat...that's got to render it pretty much on a par with transporters in the weapons stakes doesn't it?

Energy emissions by a huge 1500 m+ space station that's dedicated to emitting jamming signals for the daleks, and transmitting "TV" signals all the way across the galaxy, yes. It was also capable of jamming visual light in some manner, for ships not less than astronomical units away.

Just about anything can be disabled if you put out enough energy emissions. The station was also capable of generating a pulse that would wipe out all animal life on the Earth.

Hardly puts them in the same league as Trekporters, now, does it?

I meant in a tactical sense. In the strategic scale they're a wonderful ace to hold. The question becomes, how much energy that station was throwing around compared to what Culture ships could chuck about during the CP era, since the Homomoda were meant to be on a par/slightly ahead of them technologically at that point.