Galactica Versus Galactica

[FedRebel]

I can't seem to find any topics on the subject, and I was wondering how the original Galactica would fare in combat against the nBSG Galactica

Both ships are alone and are at the state that they were at the end of their respective first seasons.

Will it end with the oBSG Galactica in flames after it's "warriors" are politely introduced to nBSG Galactica's flak barrier?

Or will the oBSG warriors show nBSG "nuggets" how Vipers are really flown while the oBSG Galactica defeats it's nBSG counterpart in a battle that will be told for many yahren?

[Ryan Thunder]

Can't the new one pull a "Ninja" on the old one with whatever their FTL drive is, appearing behind them where fire coverage is poorer?

[Pulp Hero]

It takes some time to calculate a jump.

[Nephtys]

nBSG wins in fighter battles, since their pilots are capable of more than 6 easilly repeatable maneuvers, such as 'Viper panning into view, firing as it turns', 'airshow barrel roll', 'pair of vipers afterburning' and 'galactica getting clobbered with one laser turret slowly tracking'.

[Ryan Thunder]

We did see it done on the show, I've seen it done to some Cylon ship (possibly a basestar) at least once. I hate it, but I really have no idea where that happened.

I'm afraid I don't know much about the show; I love what I have seen though.

[avatarxprime]

If they have that capability, why don't they ever jump-n-nuke Cylon basestars?

I don't have an answer to that question myself, but given that we've never seen it done in the show, there might be some reason why it is not feasible.

Well I would like to point out that Galactica doesn't have many nukes left, so they would always try and take down a Basestar by conventional means wherever possible. Adama isn't one to go willy nilly with the nuke usage, barring the incident with the Temple of Five. So unless they get the ability to re-supply the nukes sometime soon, I would doubt he would use such a tactic unless it was absolutely necessary.

[Uraniun235]

If they have that capability, why don't they ever jump-n-nuke Cylon basestars?

I don't have an answer to that question myself, but given that we've never seen it done in the show, there might be some reason why it is not feasible.

Well I would like to point out that Galactica doesn't have many nukes left, so they would always try and take down a Basestar by conventional means wherever possible. Adama isn't one to go willy nilly with the nuke usage, barring the incident with the Temple of Five. So unless they get the ability to re-supply the nukes sometime soon, I would doubt he would use such a tactic unless it was absolutely necessary.

"Jump-n-nuke" is a bad example of a very valid point; we've seen that Battlestars simply shred Basestars at close range with their heavy guns. Why then has Galactica never drawn off a Basestar's fighter wing, then executed a jump to place it just off the Basestar, with the Basestar between Galactica and the now-distant Raiders? Or, similarly, why haven't we ever seen the Raider wing engage the Vipers, and then jump to the opposite side of Galactica and start hammering at a battlestar without fighter cover?

It seems likely that neoBSG FTL technology is not well suited for tactical manuevers.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well I would like to point out that Galactica doesn't have many nukes left, so they would always try and take down a Basestar by conventional means wherever possible. Adama isn't one to go willy nilly with the nuke usage, barring the incident with the Temple of Five. So unless they get the ability to re-supply the nukes sometime soon, I would doubt he would use such a tactic unless it was absolutely necessary.

"Jump-n-nuke" is a bad example of a very valid point; we've seen that Battlestars simply shred Basestars at close range with their heavy guns. Why then has Galactica never drawn off a Basestar's fighter wing, then executed a jump to place it just off the Basestar, with the Basestar between Galactica and the now-distant Raiders? Or, similarly, why haven't we ever seen the Raider wing engage the Vipers, and then jump to the opposite side of Galactica and start hammering at a battlestar without fighter cover?

It seems likely that neoBSG FTL technology is not well suited for tactical manuevers.[/quote]

I think the problem is the precision, and the fact that Galactica takes ages just to compute a jump point. The time taken makes it difficult to excute precise jumps.

However, the Battle of New Caprica did have them executing a very short jump between the atmosphere and into orbit.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Argh... would someone edit the quotes.

[FedRebel]

oBSG's laser cannons also seem to be capable of about 10 kiloton blasts per shot with its foward laser

As I recall the nBSG Galactica took a 50kt nuke in the miniseries with only minor damage

The oBSG Galactica had serious problems after a raider rammed it in "Fire in Space"

ref. nBSG is tough, but not that tough.

Doesn't he use armor modifiers to get some of his figures?

[quoter]Given that we are theorizing that armor in the Galactica universe is some 20X greater than iron[/quote]

Based on info in that same reference link, the old Galactica needs to be hit with a good 50 MT right on to be destroyed. nBSG probably can deliver that, but can its missile get close enough fast enough to count? I think not.

So a 50MT nuke for "one shot, one kill"?

So it's more of a question of endurance and which Battlestar will outlast the other.

We see the Pegasus's missiles destroy base stars with ease in The Living Legend - old Galactica can probably fire right back when missiles are involved.

As I recall oBSG didn't have flak barriers, many of those missiles wouldn't make it through nBSG defenses

[phongn]

"Jump-n-nuke" is a bad example of a very valid point; we've seen that Battlestars simply shred Basestars at close range with their heavy guns. Why then has Galactica never drawn off a Basestar's fighter wing, then executed a jump to place it just off the Basestar, with the Basestar between Galactica and the now-distant Raiders?

Isn't that precisely what happened when they took down the Resurrection Ship? Galactica + a few civilian decoy ships suckered off the Cylon airgroup and then promptly jumped back right into gun range?

Or, similarly, why haven't we ever seen the Raider wing engage the Vipers, and then jump to the opposite side of Galactica and start hammering at a battlestar without fighter cover?

It's weird, because we know raiders can make fairly precise jumps and play merry hell with the CAP.

However, the Battle of New Caprica did have them executing a very short jump between the atmosphere and into orbit.

Pre-calculation? If jumps are calculated relative to current position (a dangerous assumption, I know), they might simply be able to generate a coordinate "up" before the whole shebang.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

However, the Battle of New Caprica did have them executing a very short jump between the atmosphere and into orbit.

Pre-calculation? If jumps are calculated relative to current position (a dangerous assumption, I know), they might simply be able to generate a coordinate "up" before the whole shebang.

Quite possibly. Adama did plan this mission out with a high degree of precision.

Perhaps for short jumps, the computers were fast enough to compute them, but not so for long range jumps.

[Uraniun235]

"Jump-n-nuke" is a bad example of a very valid point; we've seen that Battlestars simply shred Basestars at close range with their heavy guns. Why then has Galactica never drawn off a Basestar's fighter wing, then executed a jump to place it just off the Basestar, with the Basestar between Galactica and the now-distant Raiders?

Isn't that precisely what happened when they took down the Resurrection Ship? Galactica + a few civilian decoy ships suckered off the Cylon airgroup and then promptly jumped back right into gun range?

I was under the impression that it was just a few civilian ships, and that Pegasus and Galactica jumped in together. Even if it were Galactica that jumped in from the decoy group, though, there's still a significant range difference between that battle (in which, after a few minutes of fighting, the Raiders were still unable to get back to their motherships... which is itself another oddity with regard to Raider FTL usage) and a proposed oBSG/nBSG slugging match in which the neoBSG Galactica suddenly jumps from one side of the old Galactica - within visual range, even - and straight to the other side where old Galactica wouldn't be able to get at it.

Or, similarly, why haven't we ever seen the Raider wing engage the Vipers, and then jump to the opposite side of Galactica and start hammering at a battlestar without fighter cover?

It's weird, because we know raiders can make fairly precise jumps and play merry hell with the CAP.

I don't think we really know that those jumps were particularly precise. It's entirely possible that the Raider was simply setting the jump engines for "minimum jump thataway" and popping up elsewhere without a care as to where it ultimately ended up, because space is big and it didn't have to be at any particularly specific place.

[Batman]

oBSG's laser cannons also seem to be capable of about 10 kiloton blasts per shot with its foward laser

As I recall the nBSG Galactica took a 50kt nuke in the miniseries with only minor damage
The oBSG Galactica had serious problems after a raider rammed it in "Fire in Space"

The 50KT nuke hit the hull, the Cylon raider in 'Fire in Space' crashed in one of the landing bays, setting it on fire (let's just ignore the stupidity of them not being able to put out a fire on a flight deck that's open to space on both ends). That's a bit of a difference.

[FedRebel]

The 50KT nuke hit the hull, the Cylon raider in 'Fire in Space' crashed in one of the landing bays, setting it on fire (let's just ignore the stupidity of them not being able to put out a fire on a flight deck that's open to space on both ends). That's a bit of a difference.

It does illustrate that nBSG has far more efficient damage control practices than oBSG

[Batman]

The 50KT nuke hit the hull, the Cylon raider in 'Fire in Space' crashed in one of the landing bays, setting it on fire (let's just ignore the stupidity of them not being able to put out a fire on a flight deck that's open to space on both ends). That's a bit of a difference.

It does illustrate that nBSG has far more efficient damage control practices than oBSG

No it doesn't. The nBSG reiteration of that episode does, but the 50KT hull hit simply shows that they can withstand it. It doesn't say beans about their damage control capabilities in case a raider crashes in the landing bay.

[Nephtys]

The 50KT nuke hit the hull, the Cylon raider in 'Fire in Space' crashed in one of the landing bays, setting it on fire (let's just ignore the stupidity of them not being able to put out a fire on a flight deck that's open to space on both ends). That's a bit of a difference.

It does illustrate that nBSG has far more efficient damage control practices than oBSG

No it doesn't. The nBSG reiteration of that episode does, but the 50KT hull hit simply shows that they can withstand it. It doesn't say beans about their damage control capabilities in case a raider crashes in the landing bay.

Unlike oBSG, they know that fires actually get put out if you vent the air, and not to put hazardous materials in the landing bay itself, but rather a recovery area. That speaks ages for how nBSG has better damage control than oBSG, with that silly episode entitled 'Fire in Space'

[Batman]

Ahem.The nBSG reiteration of that episode does

[Phantasee]

It seems likely that neoBSG FTL technology is not well suited for tactical manuevers.

You can't expect everyone to have the ability to pull off a 'Picard Manoeuvre'.

[Steel]

Wheres this "nBSG survived a 50kt skin hit" come from? In the miniseries galactica has a nuke of unknown yeild shot at it which certainly misses and detonates up to a mile away iirc...

[CaptJodan]

which certainly misses and detonates up to a mile away iirc...

Where do you get the idea that the missile missed and detonated a mile away?

[Shannon]

Wheres this "nBSG survived a 50kt skin hit" come from? In the miniseries galactica has a nuke of unknown yeild shot at it which certainly misses and detonates up to a mile away iirc...

In the nBSG miniseries, Apollo is on Colonial One when it is attacked by a Raider. The Raider fires a single missile. Apollo uses Galactica's decommissioned EMP generators, which are onboard, to simultaneously nullify the warhead (presumably disarming it) and create an EM pulse equivalent to that of a 50kT nuclear explosion. We know what the yield is because Galactica is monitoring the event and is fooled, just as the Raider is. The yield is announced by Lt. Gaeta.

When Galactica herself is attacked, a Raider fires at least three missiles. We know they are nukes because the crew notes that fact. Starbuck shoots down two. One appears to directly strike the Galactica's port flight pod. We know this because the concussion jars the ship (a near-miss of a mile would not do that) and Starbuck's flyby (on the DVD) clearly shows the impact point. The scar is visible to this day. Damage to the flight pod was substantial but manageable and Col. Tigh stated that the hull plating kept out most of the hard radiation.

The implication here is that because both Raiders carried nukes, and because the expected yield of the first is established as being 50kT, the second is likewise 50kT. Why would a Raider shoot anything less at a Battlestar when nukes of that size have been used against civilian ships like Colonial One?

However, because the flash of the explosion is visible from the camera's view point from the other side of Galactica and the pattern of the explosion that was supposed to have killed Colonial One was spherical, that implies that this was an area-release nuke (like a photon torpedo) and not a shaped/focused charge (like a concussion missile or proton torpedo). That means that geometry comes into play. It would be impossible for Galactica's hull to absorb more than 50% of the energy of such a blast. Therefore, it probably only really withstood 25kT at most - still impressive given that the damage was relatively quickly contained, though with heavy loss of life.

(POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN SEASON TWO)

This is not the upper limit of the durability of Colonial warships in nBSG, either. Pegasus was ambushed by three Base stars and took several nuke hits that prevented her from immediately jumping away. The Cylons apparently knew exactly where to hit her. But the ship was still able to fight well enough to badly damage one Base star while making running repairs to enable her to escape.

[Steel]

Wheres this "nBSG survived a 50kt skin hit" come from? In the miniseries galactica has a nuke of unknown yeild shot at it which certainly misses and detonates up to a mile away iirc...

In the nBSG miniseries, Apollo is on Colonial One when it is attacked by a Raider. The Raider fires a single missile. Apollo uses Galactica's decommissioned EMP generators, which are onboard, to simultaneously nullify the warhead (presumably disarming it) and create an EM pulse equivalent to that of a 50kT nuclear explosion. We know what the yield is because Galactica is monitoring the event and is fooled, just as the Raider is. The yield is announced by Lt. Gaeta.

Thats the point. We never actually hear the yeild of the nuclear weapons the fighters carry.

Here we have an example of a ship faking a nuclear explosion of some yeild, and absolutely no way to tell how this relates to the actual yeild of the ones used by the fighters.

Do you think that the colonial transport had sensors capable of detecting the yeild of the nukes the fighters were using and then specifically tried to set the (totally nonstandard) EM thingy the FTL drive produces to match that yeild(I doubt they can even vaguley control the size of the burst it produced)?

Seems quite unlikely doesnt it? The raiders probably arent equipped to quantify the yeild of nuclear detonations (beyond 'big') either. So they saw a boom and left. The decoy did its job.

When Galactica herself is attacked, a Raider fires at least three missiles. We know they are nukes because the crew notes that fact. Starbuck shoots down two. One appears to directly strike the Galactica's port flight pod. We know this because the concussion jars the ship (a near-miss of a mile would not do that) and Starbuck's flyby (on the DVD) clearly shows the impact point. The scar is visible to this day. Damage to the flight pod was substantial but manageable and Col. Tigh stated that the hull plating kept out most of the hard radiation.

The implication here is that because both Raiders carried nukes, and because the expected yield of the first is established as being 50kT, the second is likewise 50kT. Why would a Raider shoot anything less at a Battlestar when nukes of that size have been used against civilian ships like Colonial One?

However, because the flash of the explosion is visible from the camera's view point from the other side of Galactica and the pattern of the explosion that was supposed to have killed Colonial One was spherical, that implies that this was an area-release nuke (like a photon torpedo) and not a shaped/focused charge (like a concussion missile or proton torpedo). That means that geometry comes into play. It would be impossible for Galactica's hull to absorb more than 50% of the energy of such a blast. Therefore, it probably only really withstood 25kT at most - still impressive given that the damage was relatively quickly contained, though with heavy loss of life.

(POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN SEASON TWO)

This is not the upper limit of the durability of Colonial warships in nBSG, either. Pegasus was ambushed by three Base stars and took several nuke hits that prevented her from immediately jumping away. The Cylons apparently knew exactly where to hit her. But the ship was still able to fight well enough to badly damage one Base star while making running repairs to enable her to escape.

While i cant find a decent video of this part, it does look like the missile could have hit. What was odd was that the missile passed by galactica and then curved back before detonating. It dips below the main hull before it goes off, so i cant see if it is actually hitting the pod or going beyond... So unless someone can find a better video i wont argue this.

[Shannon]

Actually I did watch it again, last night.

Thats the point. We never actually hear the yeild of the nuclear weapons the fighters carry.

Here we have an example of a ship faking a nuclear explosion of some yeild, and absolutely no way to tell how this relates to the actual yeild of the ones used by the fighters.

No, you're missing the point - again. We know that the EM Pulse that Apollo generated mimiced that of a 50 kT thermonuclear explosion. We know that this completely fooled the Galactica (which had been nuked no more than a few hours earlier) and the attacking Raiders. Apollo specifically stated that his stunt wasn't known to the fleet in general, it was a theory from War College which never worked in simulations because the Cylons saw through it and attacked. Under these battle conditions, however, they didn't - they saw a 50 kT explosion, which was what they and the Galactica expected to see. No-one on Galactica said 'Hey, that explosion is too big/too small.' They would in fact have been looking for any anomalies because they were all so gutted about Apollo supposedly just having been nuked! Ergo, the yield of Raider nukes is 50 kT.

Do you think that the colonial transport had sensors capable of detecting the yeild of the nukes the fighters were using and then specifically tried to set the (totally nonstandard) EM thingy the FTL drive produces to match that yeild(I doubt they can even vaguley control the size of the burst it produced)?

Apollo didn't hang around on the flight deck to determine the weapons of the Raiders. He seemed to know they'd use nukes. He even seemed to know what yield those nukes would be! How strange! Perhaps he'd actually been a good student and studied his enemy? The 'totally nonstandard EM thingies' were, as I've said Galactica's EM Pulse generators, taken from the ship as it was being decommissioned. He used the FTL drive to manipulate their output to simulate the pulse of a 50 kT blast. And what evidence do you have to prove that he couldn't control the output, when all evidence on screen shows otherwise?

Seems quite unlikely doesnt it? The raiders probably arent equipped to quantify the yeild of nuclear detonations (beyond 'big') either. So they saw a boom and left. The decoy did its job.

Obviously not unlikely. It happened. What evidence do you have to show that the raiders aren't equipped to know if they've been fooled, especially when Apollo points out that they knew they'd been fooled in the simulations? Decoys only work if they're realistic enough - Apollo knew that.

Shannon wrote:

When Galactica herself is attacked, a Raider fires at least three missiles. We know they are nukes because the crew notes that fact. Starbuck shoots down two. One appears to directly strike the Galactica's port flight pod. We know this because the concussion jars the ship (a near-miss of a mile would not do that) and Starbuck's flyby (on the DVD) clearly shows the impact point. The scar is visible to this day. Damage to the flight pod was substantial but manageable and Col. Tigh stated that the hull plating kept out most of the hard radiation.

The implication here is that because both Raiders carried nukes, and because the expected yield of the first is established as being 50kT, the second is likewise 50kT. Why would a Raider shoot anything less at a Battlestar when nukes of that size have been used against civilian ships like Colonial One?

However, because the flash of the explosion is visible from the camera's view point from the other side of Galactica and the pattern of the explosion that was supposed to have killed Colonial One was spherical, that implies that this was an area-release nuke (like a photon torpedo) and not a shaped/focused charge (like a concussion missile or proton torpedo). That means that geometry comes into play. It would be impossible for Galactica's hull to absorb more than 50% of the energy of such a blast. Therefore, it probably only really withstood 25kT at most - still impressive given that the damage was relatively quickly contained, though with heavy loss of life.

(POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN SEASON TWO)

This is not the upper limit of the durability of Colonial warships in nBSG, either. Pegasus was ambushed by three Base stars and took several nuke hits that prevented her from immediately jumping away. The Cylons apparently knew exactly where to hit her. But the ship was still able to fight well enough to badly damage one Base star while making running repairs to enable her to escape.


While i cant find a decent video of this part, it does look like the missile could have hit. What was odd was that the missile passed by galactica and then curved back before detonating. It dips below the main hull before it goes off, so i cant see if it is actually hitting the pod or going beyond... So unless someone can find a better video i wont argue this.

As I said, I rewatched this last night. The missile most definitely not pass by the ship and then curve back - it can clearly be see from above the starboard bow of the ship, approaching directly and curving down into the port flight pod. Prior to this, Adama says "Brace for contact". He clearly expects a direct hit. The ship is shaken as if the hit was a direct hit. You don't get shockwaves in space!

Concession accepted.

[Shannon]

Ghetto edit: the last paragraph should read:
As I said, I rewatched this last night. The missile most definitely did not pass by the ship and then curve back - it can clearly be seen from above the starboard bow of the ship, approaching directly and curving down into the port flight pod. Prior to this, Adama says "Brace for contact". He clearly expects a direct hit. The ship is shaken as if the hit was a direct hit. You don't get shockwaves in space!