Ghost int he Shell Vs... Halo

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

Q, for rather Q-ish reasons has decided to determine who between Section 9 (T.V. series) and the Spartan program would really be best suited for defense of the Earth through a series of trials in an exact duplicate of the New Mombassa Warzone (as seen in Halo 2)


The first trial closely resemble the plot of the fourth and fifth levels of Halo 2 (Outskirts, Metropolis, the levels that take place on Earth basically), Section 9 and the Master-chief must fight their way through each warzone, lending support to UNSC marines against the covenant, defeat a Scarab and then fight there way to an extraction point.

The Spartan run-through will be made by the original team from Fall of Reach (Q has seen fit to make this an 'ideal' situation in which Reach did not fall and thus, the complete team of Spartans is alive and together)
The master chief is also carrying Cortana.

Section 9 gets similar treatment for this one, the full team, including Tachikomas and satellite access to Chief Arramaki and Section 9s technical support.

Judging:
Which team kills the most Covenant invaders while takign the least number of casualties. Other considerations include how fast the complete the objectives and how many humans they can save.

Alternate Scenarios: Section 9 has their satellite access cut off and is without Tachikomas, while the Master-Chief left Cortana on Cairo Station and can't talk to her.
Instead of the full teams, it's between Major Motoko Kusanagi (With or without Tachikoma) and the Master Chief (with or without Cortana as appropriate).

The Second trial takes place in the same warzone with the same teams, but this time its a death-match, Both Section 9 and the Spartans land comfortably on opposite sides of the city with an armory that consists of every weapon from their respective universes. The two prospective defenders of earth have to fight through the covenant invasion and kill the other team.

Judging: The only thing that matters is surviving and killing the other team.

Alternate Scenarios:
Same as the first trial, plus, for one match, each team starts only with their standard equipment instead of a full load out, and on another each team starts without weapons and must fight with whatever they can scavenge from the warzone (for balance, Section 9s cybernetics are compatible with the UNSC interfaces).

Caveats: No game mechanics please, keep to the book canon for the Spartans and whatever can be gleaned from suitable cinematics.

In death matches, the two teams are completely unaware of the other's capabilities/training/weapons, they only know the numbers of the other side, that they are formidable and that they must be defeated.

So, Who Get's the dubious honor of defending the Earth from the Covenant menace?
And, what loopholes did I leave open for creative interpertations(I didn't try too but I'm sure y'all will find them)
Also, feel free to create other trials that might more accurately compare the two and other alternate scenarios.

[DPDarkPrimus]

It'd help if you gave information on the respective squads.

[Nephtys]

GitS small arms are capable of being notably superior. They have a wide range of weapons that are clearly beyond modern capabilities, while human Halo weapons are largely analogues (with minor differences) to modern. In the first GitS movie, an armored van is torn apart by 'High Velocity' bullets fired out of a small machine pistol, in a manner unlike any modern weapon.

The main field members of Section 9 do quite superhuman things, in some ways superior to a Spartan, not so much in others. Not sure about speed, but they all can largely jump hideous distances or fall off buildings without really worrying about anything except the crater they'll leave. That 'Spartan Time' thing is probably somewhat faster though.

[Peptuck]

[quteo]The master chief is also carrying Cortana.[/quote]

Hold it.

Fight is already over.

Cortana hacks every single member of Section 9 with cybernetic augs and disables them. Spartans roll over all of them without much trouble afterwards.

Sun Tzu smiles in the afterlife and clinks glasses with Rommel.

[Peptuck]

Ghetto edit: Dammit, I fail at quoting.

[General Zod]

Hold it.

Fight is already over.

Cortana hacks every single member of Section 9 with cybernetic augs and disables them. Spartans roll over all of them without much trouble afterwards.

Sun Tzu smiles in the afterlife and clinks glasses with Rommel.

This isn't the Federation we're talking about. Section 9 has plenty of experience dealing with hackers. I'm also fairly certain that the Major is capable of hacking people's minds, so it's not as if they couldn't try hacking the Master Chief first.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

It'd help if you gave information on the respective squads.

Wikipedia actually has a pretty good article on section 9, including articles detailing the specific capabilities of the team members.

The basics:
Section 9 is a covert special operations/investigative organization of 2030s, cyber-punk Japan. the members are extensively modified with cybernetic parts (with two notable exceptions) and at least one member (Major Motoko Kusanagi) has a fully artificial body (the extent of Borma, Pazu and the new recruits Yanno and Kazuma's cyberization is unclear). All 9 field operatives have cyber-brains (The basic brain-computer brige in which neurons are replaced by more efficient digital analogues) and wired/wireless interfaces.
Except for Togusa (the least enhanced member of the team, only his brain has been enhanced) all served in elite Japanese military units during WW4 and have extensive combat experience.
The extensively enhanced members have pretty much what you'd expect, increased speed, strength, reflexes etc. as well as thermoptic camoflauge systems that can render them fully invisible to normal, thermal and IR vision for an indeterminate (but presumably limited) amount of time, and partialy invisible (more on par with Haloverses Active Camoflauge) for a longer amount of time. The fully invisible effect cannot keep up with some of the extremely quick maneuvers the cyberized operatives can perform and is also impaired by water/snow etc. the lesser effect is much less effected however.
Section 9 is also equipped with a number of Tachikoma AI driven quadripedal 'mini tanks' They appear to have only light-medium armor but are highly mobile, capable of dodging slower moving projectiles as well as performing impressive jumps and even climbing walls and hanging on ceilings. The are armed with a 7.62mm machine gun in one arm, a datalink and fine manipulator on the other and a central weapon mount capable of accepting either a 12.7mm gattling gun or 50mm grenade launcher, as well as a pair of adhesive cable launchers and a thermoptic camoflauge system. tachikomas also feature compartment that can fit a human and can act as a vehicle.

As for the Spartan Team, I can't find a reliable list of the Spartans/specialties from the fall of reach but I do know there were eight on the ground and the Master Chief plus two others in orbit.
So ~eleven Spartan-IIs.
The Basics:
Spartans are the result of a secret UNSC project to create super-soldiers. They have been extensively modified with minor brain and genetic augmentations as well as bone and muscle mass augmentation/replacement that makes them significantly tougher and faster than baseline humans with increased reflexes, strength and intelligence.
trained from a young age they were recently equipped with Mjolnir battle armor that further increases their capabilities as well as augmenting their senses (IR/Thermal vision and hearing augmentation IIRC, the upgraded Mk. VI armor also include further enhanced coordination and a magnification feature.) as well as limited, but self recharging energy shields.
My quick take:
I can't recall if the motion-detector is just a game mechanic or if it was canonized in the novels, without it, Section 9 has a decent advantage in stealth but the motion sensor would most likely even the odds there.
As mentioned, Section 9 has mostly superior weaponry, though the Spartan shields may prove a slight challenge. The Enhanced members of section 9 however are wickedly tough and can take multiple hits, even lose limbs and still go on.

Both sides are inhumanly accurate with equally inhuman reflexes, though I might be inclined to give Section 9 the advantage here, Major Kusanagi at least is reportedly capable of shooting bullets out of the air at medium ranges, I doubt an average spartan could match that, though John-117 with help from Cortana might.

I could be wrong on my analysis though (esp. regarding the Spartans, as I don't have the relevant books handy)

[DPDarkPrimus]

I know all about Section 9. I have both of the series.

But for the purposes of this scenario you need to give a detailed list of what each side has.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

Hacking wise, Things are complicated, the Major is acknowledged as being one of the more skilled hackers in universe and Borma+Ishikawa are at least that capable. 'more skilled' hackers of the Ghost in the Shell universe are capable of hacking into augmented brains and taking control of them in relatively short amounts of time (A notoriously difficult feat in universe, so much so that some people don't even believe it can be done and even those that do often do not take special precautions believing the ability to do so to be so rare that they are unlikely to need it) this is especially impressive in a universe where firewalls can fry your brain (the regular firewalls, any special anti-brain hacking counter-measures would be above and beyond brain-frying) and a minor mistake might not give you the chance to learn from it. And Even an especially skilled hacker is incapable of hacking a cyber-brain in 'autistic mode' (I.E. they can turn their wireless networking off, a basic security precaution that is almost entirely unheard of in other Sci-fi universes) and use of 'dummy barriers' to prevent being back-hacked or defend against fatal firewalls have also been demonstrated. Furthermore, the Tachikomas are also capable of networking and providing section 9 with a significant boost to their already formidable hacking capabilities.

DPDP:
Sorry,
I suppose weapon wise Section 9 is equipped with their standard assault rifles with underbarrel Grenade launchers and pistols and the Spartans get Battle rifles+SMG (or pistol) and each teams designated sniper gets an appropriate sniper rifle and anybody can of course pick up whatever weapons are lying around (I.E. from dead covenant/marines etc.) if thats not what you mean then please elaborate.

[Peptuck]

Hold it.

Fight is already over.

Cortana hacks every single member of Section 9 with cybernetic augs and disables them. Spartans roll over all of them without much trouble afterwards.

Sun Tzu smiles in the afterlife and clinks glasses with Rommel.

This isn't the Federation we're talking about. Section 9 has plenty of experience dealing with hackers. I'm also fairly certain that the Major is capable of hacking people's minds, so it's not as if they couldn't try hacking the Master Chief first.

And?

Section 9 may have plenty of experience, but at the most basic level their hackers are still human beings. Cortana is a sentient, self-aware AI from a society that uses crystalline data storage and processing devices and is specialized around hacking impossible-to-break systems; she breaches Reach's most secretive and secure networks on a whim and hammers through 128,000 bit modulating Covenant encryption keys with wi-fi connections, and that's not counting what she's capable of cracking when she's inside Covenant or Forerunner computer networks.

Admittedly, the Major is no slouch when it comes to hacking, but I don't think she's ever had to deal with something on Cortana's level before.

[CaptHawkeye]

And?

Section 9 may have plenty of experience, but at the most basic level their hackers are still human beings. Cortana is a sentient, self-aware AI

Section 9 has delt with out of control sentient AI before dude. It was only the whole point of the first movie.

from a society that uses crystalline data storage and processing devices and is specialized around hacking impossible-to-break systems;

What's this "lol impossible" BS? It sounds like the "zomg our hull are immune to lazors" crap.

she breaches Reach's most secretive and secure networks on a whim and hammers through 128,000 bit modulating Covenant encryption keys with wi-fi connections, and that's not counting what she's capable of cracking when she's inside Covenant or Forerunner computer networks.

On High Charity she made it clear that the Covenant never expected her to get that deep into their infrastructure, which was why they were virtually powerless to stop her. And don't get started on Forerunner networks, she was virtually powerless when confronted with the AI on board the Forerunner Ship at High Charity.

Admittedly, the Major is no slouch when it comes to hacking, but I don't think she's ever had to deal with something on Cortana's level before.

Eh hem, the Puppet Master?

[CaptHawkeye]

Edit: I shouldn't really say the Forerunner ship had AI, because we don't actually know what was fighting her, she just said it was puting up quite the fight and had brought her hacking Blitzkrieg to a standstill.

[General Zod]

Admittedly, the Major is no slouch when it comes to hacking, but I don't think she's ever had to deal with something on Cortana's level before.

Has Cortana ever hacked another person's mind? If not, then I don't think the Chief has much of a chance.

[Noble Ire]

Admittedly, the Major is no slouch when it comes to hacking, but I don't think she's ever had to deal with something on Cortana's level before.

Has Cortana ever hacked another person's mind? If not, then I don't think the Chief has much of a chance.

Are you referring to a purely biological mind? I don't recall that ever happening, although I haven't seen every episode of the series.

If not, I'm not seeing the fundamental difference between a GitS AI's brain/implant and a piece of UNSC or Covenant computational hardware. What makes the former intrinsically superior, or harder to crack?

[Darth Yoshi]

To nitpick, the Puppet Master doesn't apply to this scenario, because the OP specifies SAC Section 9, which never dealt with the Puppet Master. Granted, Section 9 faces a hacker called Puppeteer in Solid State Society, but that's not an AI.

[General Zod]

Are you referring to a purely biological mind? I don't recall that ever happening, although I haven't seen every episode of the series.

If not, I'm not seeing the fundamental difference between a GitS AI's brain/implant and a piece of UNSC or Covenant computational hardware. What makes the former intrinsically superior, or harder to crack?

For that matter, has Cortana ever hacked another AI at all? I'm not swallowing that hacking a complex AI or someone's ghost would be justas easy as hacking standard military hardware. Didn't Cortana also have a tough time with that Librarian in Halo 1? Why didn't she just hack him and take control after they discovered he wasn't quite so friendly?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

To nitpick, the Puppet Master doesn't apply to this scenario, because the OP specifies SAC Section 9, which never dealt with the Puppet Master. Granted, Section 9 faces a hacker called Puppeteer in Solid State Society, but that's not an AI.

They had to deal with the Laughing Man who was a genius of a hacker.

[[R_H]]

snip

For that matter, has Cortana ever hacked another AI at all? I'm not swallowing that hacking a complex AI or someone's ghost would be justas easy as hacking standard military hardware. Didn't Cortana also have a tough time with that Librarian in Halo 1? Why didn't she just hack him and take control after they discovered he wasn't quite so friendly?

At the beginning of First Strike, when the survivors of the destruction of Halo board and capture the Covenant vessel, she encounters and pretty much dissects a Covenant AI.

[General Zod]

At the beginning of First Strike, when the survivors of the destruction of Halo board and capture the Covenant vessel, she encounters and pretty much dissects a Covenant AI.

Was all of her attention focused on just that one AI, or was she able to affect multiple ones at once? Because in order for her to successfully break Section 9, she'd have to spend time hacking each individual member.

[Noble Ire]

For that matter, has Cortana ever hacked another AI at all? I'm not swallowing that hacking a complex AI or someone's ghost would be justas easy as hacking standard military hardware. Didn't Cortana also have a tough time with that Librarian in Halo 1? Why didn't she just hack him and take control after they discovered he wasn't quite so friendly?

Guilty Spark was an a product of a civilization whose technology was vastly superior to that of both the UNSC and the Covenant. Even in a debate that deals with largely undefinable "complexity levels", like the discussion of any differences in the technology of GitS and Halo, Forerunner hardware should be discounted as an extreme outlier. To impune Cortana's hacking ability because she was unable to control Guilty Spark is like saying that my pocket calculator is useless for basic computation because it can't calculate Pi to a million places.

Besides, as [R_H] points out, when Cortana remotely commandeers the Ascendant Justice in First Strike, she easily dispatches its guardian AI, although I don't recall the extent to which she is actually able to "get inside of it".

[[R_H]]

I'd have to look in the book again, but I'm fairly sure Cortana was piloting the Ascendant Justice (Covie ship) at the time. The Covenant AI was messing around with the ship's systems, and when they arrived at Reach (to determine the fate of/rescue survivors) it sent a message to the Covenant ships in orbit that the AJ had fallen into enemy hands, and while evading the enemy ships, Cortana destroyed the AI and dissected it. I'll look in my copy of First Strike as soon as possible to determine how accurate my account of the events are and then correct them (if I can find the book )

[[R_H]]

snip

snip

Besides, as [R_H] points out, when Cortana remotely commandeers the Ascendant Justice in First Strike, she easily dispatches its guardian AI, although I don't recall the extent to which she is actually able to "get inside of it".

[my above post was in reference to General Zod asking where Cortana's attention was focused]

Off the top of my head, she pretty much dissected the Covenant AI. While doing so, she found a copying/imaging software (which she later used at the end of the book).

[Uraniun235]

Gee, sounds like there needs to be a "Cortana vs. Culture Mind" thread...

[Ryan Thunder]

Gee, sounds like there needs to be a "Cortana vs. Culture Mind" thread...

She gets fucked. Royally. They're millions of times more intelligent than a human, and her only real advantage over one is processing power.

[Sidewinder]

One advantage Section 9 has over the Spartan-IIs is the fact that cyborgs in the 'Ghost in the Shell' universe are easily mass produced, while the enhancements a Spartan-II receives is damaging to most of the recipients. That means if Section 9's budget balloons because of a new threat, they can recruit, modify, and train an army of cyborgs able to challenge a Spartan-II in arm wrestling, marathon, or what have you, while the Spartan-IIs can't do the same without crippling a large number of its recruits.