Covenant (Halo) Vs Orks Vs Chaos Space Marines

[Sidewinder]

I was going to post a "Covenant Vs Imperium of Man" thread, but after searching, found at least three more threads on the same topic. (Long story short, the Imperium of Man ass-rapes the Covenant.) So...

An Ork Space Hulk (Warhammer 40,000) exits the Warp in front of Halo, and the green bastards claim the superstructure is a gift from Gork and Mork. Meanwhile, a Chaos fleet arrives at Halo and dispatches Chaos Space Marines to search for what they believe to be a Chaos artifact on Halo. The Covenant arrives to find the Orks and the Chaos Space Marines going at it, and tries to evict the green bastards and the Damned. Who wins?

[Adrian Laguna]

Probably Chaos Space Marines, why?

a Chaos fleet arrives at Halo and dispatches

Naval superiority ftw. Though granted a Space Hulk can be a huge unknown quantity. Some of them can be defeated by a single Imperial or Chaos cruiser, others can take-on a whole flotilla of warships. Either way, the Covies get blown-up before they even set foot on the structure, and the Chaos Marines likely beat the Orks through superior mobility.

[Covenant]

Unless the Orks have a particularly gifted commander I think the Space Marines have it. The Chaos fleet could probably park right in the center of the ring and hit anywhere on the surface fairly easily, and Orky stationary defenses are just as likely to be made out of dirt and wood as anything more complicated, so it's somewhat unlikely the Chaos marines will have a terribly difficult time rooting them out. Orks are annoying, but they're hardly that impressive outside of a Waagh!! and defiantely on the lower end of the spectrum. Presumably even the Tau would be better dropped onto the Halo than the Ork due to their ranged weapon superiority. Am I wrong? I'd favor the Orks inside of the Pillar of Autumn, but Chaos Marines are pretty much heavy hitters at range and up close, something that'll do them well against the orks.

And the Covenant have absolutely no hope whatsoever. The little that came from the "Covenant vs. Protoss" thread is that the humans in Halo are using weapons that are arguably inferior to the ones we use today (possibly due to secondary factors, like material construction) and that the most impressively powerful Covenant killers--like the shotgun--are completely mundane weapons not out of place in the 1900's.

Compared to that, the weapons being packed by Chaos, especially their energy-type blasters, are probably going to saw through the Covenant extremely easy. Even a Lasgun has some serious kick, and these are the Chaos Marines.

I'm not really sure this is a fair fight, unless we ascribe to the Covenant some massive advantage they've been denied in every single game. You might want to change the specifications to allow the Covenant to field their absolute best forces--possibly have an Eldar psyker contact a Prophet or someone. A massive Spartan-wall of Hunters backed up by elites with the grunts used more intelligently would be better, though probably not well. They really need to realize that the Marines are not a force to be dicked around with. It's really not overstating it that every single Space Marine that Chaos would be fielding is probably completely superior to the Master Chief, Cortana aside. Imagine deploying a few thousand Master Chiefs, and you see the problem, lest the Covenant know that their balls are on the chopping block, and can prepare a decent defense.

[[R_H]]

I agree with Covenant and Adrian Laguna. The Covenant would definitely be raped, especially when they're up against the CSMs. Remember, the Covenant don't exactly have a great track record against the UNSC ground forces (which don't hold a candle to IG), and the CSM fleet would be more than a match for them. Plus the Covenant don't seem to have ever encountered anything along the lines of physkers or the corrupting effect of Chaos (Grunt cultists anyone? ). Judging the Ork preformance is a little trickier, as Space Hulks (as mentionned before) can vary greatly in size. However, there's no telling what the sheer numbers the Orks can bear will accomplish against the CSM.

What kinds of numbers would each of the races have (ships, ground soldiers, special units (ex actual space marines as opposed to cultists or Traitor Guard).

[Peptuck]

On the ground, the Covenant are going to lose hard, but in space, I think its a slightly different story. Covenant space weaponry far outstrips their ground abilities, as they're able to withstand direct hits by nukes and MAC guns and keep trucking. The main batteries of a Covenant ship are able to affect Exterminatus-tier destruction on a planetary surface in a matter of hours, and they have fairly long ranges on their plasma torpedoes.

I don't think the Covenant ships have firepower that can match the raw destructive ability of that of a Chaos fleet, but they have a better chance in space than they do on the ground. Only problem will be that the Covenant are not[.i] willing to fire on enemy vessels close to Halo for fear of damaging the ringworld.

[Imperial Overlord]

On the ground, the Covenant are going to lose hard, but in space, I think its a slightly different story. Covenant space weaponry far outstrips their ground abilities, as they're able to withstand direct hits by nukes and MAC guns and keep trucking. The main batteries of a Covenant ship are able to affect Exterminatus-tier destruction on a planetary surface in a matter of hours, and they have fairly long ranges on their plasma torpedoes.

40K uses megaton grade nukes as anti fighter flak. Sustained cruiser broadsides are in the teratons and their shields and hulls can take that abuse. The Covenant is much more impressive in space than on the ground, but they are still going to lose.

[Master_Baerne]

I posit that the Marines, confident in victory, will activate Halo, thus wiping out the entire galaxy. With no Cortana to tell them what 343 Guilty Spark is up to, they would presumably be suckered into triggering the ring.

[Covenant]

I posit that the Marines, confident in victory, will activate Halo, thus wiping out the entire galaxy. With no Cortana to tell them what 343 Guilty Spark is up to, they would presumably be suckered into triggering the ring.

I'm not positive that this a failure state for the Chaos Gods. At the very least, it would stop them pesky Necrons, wouldn't it? ;D

[Psychic_Sandwich]

I'm not positive that this a failure state for the Chaos Gods. At the very least, it would stop them pesky Necrons, wouldn't it? ;D

Not necessarily. The Necrons aren't really alive, and we know that machinery survives the activation of Halo just fine.

[Sidewinder]

What kinds of numbers would each of the races have (ships, ground soldiers, special units (ex actual space marines as opposed to cultists or Traitor Guard).

I don't know enough about WH40K to say what would be appropriate for each side to bring to bear. Assume the Covenant assembles a fleet comparable to what you see in 'Halo'. The Orks have enough men for a Waaagh!! and are bringing the special units they'd typically have for a Waaagh!! The Chaos Space Marines have... whatever number of men and special units they typically have for an important task, e.g., recovering a Chaos artifact, which they believe is on Halo.

[Covenant]

The Orks have enough men for a Waaagh!! and are bringing the special units they'd typically have for a Waaagh!!

...that would be an awful lot of Ork. It's possible that giant, angry, Hunter-sized Orkinoids may actually outnumber the Covenant grunts. How many troops did the Covenant employ? We all know that the Orks are bad at counting, but a good Warboss can get bumfuck amounts of Orks. They're worse than flood too--even if you kill them, their spores are just gonna grow more psycho feral Orks eventually.

[fgalkin]

Yeah, an Orky WAAAGH is not a thing to be trifled with, and generally screws the world over pretty much forever, because short of Exterminatus, you're never getting rid of Orks.

Now, here's an idea. After they win, they turn the Halo into a space hulk, strap on engines, and go off sailing into the Warp. Imagine the surprise of the inhabitants of the next system they show up in.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Connor MacLeod]

In ground or in space, the CSM's will take it. They're on par with the Imperium ships in terms of firepower/gunnery (if not slightly better) and they're mor agile. Even at the most outrageous calcs I've never seen the Covvies get above TT range firepower (sustained), and many 40K calcs put 40K ships into the petaton range (at least for battleships and battlecruisers. Cruisers are double/triple digit generally.) More plausibly the Covvies would be single or double TT at best per volley, and evidence tends to suggest their "stnadarD" anti-ship firepower is more gigaton range (Cortana's modified plasma weapon vs the 3 km asteroid.) And they're nowhere near as durable, so the covvies get spanked in short order by even cruiser/escort vessels unless they have a massive numericla advantage or we use massively lopsided calcs favoring the covvies.

Ground combat? the CSM themselves are a danger, but the right loadout on a FRG should, in theory, ,be able to fuck one over. IIRC the Covvies have a few other heavy weapons that might work - but most of their personal weapons (the plasma guns) won't do squat.

The non-CSM troops, however, tend to be lunatic cultists (unless we're talking something on the order of the Blood Pact, which IIRC is not exactly common) or beastmen. They might be charitably as well equipped as a low end Guardsmen, but most tend not to be even that. (The Iron Warriors troops in Storm of Iron, for example, weren't wearing very good armour and had bolt-action rifles.) The odds that they have more firepower than the covvies is good, but they'll basically be cannon fodder.

Ork ships aren't quite on par with Imperium ships, but a Space Hulk can be a huge ship and very well armed (if the ORks know what they're doing, which is rare.) And IIRC in BFG, Ork Space hulks are basically their version of battleships (and they can be as large or bigger than Imperium battleships.)

In ground combat, the Orks aren't great shots, but they use some insanely powerful weapons (boltguns, heavy stubber/autocannon analogues, flamer and plasma and lascannon and melta variants, etc.) and they'd be brutal in close up. Moreover, they're insanely durable, even if they arne't always well armoured, and short of a FRG, they won't have any means of completely destroying an Ork (I doubt they know how to kil them properly either.)

For the orks what it boils down to essentially is just how big a Space Hulk we're talking. A big one could hold a huge number of orks and match/exceed an Imperium/chaos battleship for firepower.

[Marko Dash]

so what happens when some idiot releases the flood?

[The Grim Squeaker]

so what happens when some idiot releases the flood?

The CSM should be allright, heck Nurglites would probably take some Flood back for breeding or something similarly nasty.
The Orks would be a horrific source of bio-mass for the Flood, they don't have any armour, and they do have a nervous system (We've seen weird beasties get assimilated with ease as in "The Last journey of the Infinite succour"). Lacking anything like NBC gear, and with the Flood "boosting" them (Or even tapping into their hivemind for their own) we'd probably see a Gravemind appear very quickly, spelling Very Bad News for everyone else.

The Covenant would get pummeled surely enough, but it won't matter if the Space Hulk gets filled with Flood, and vamooses. Galaxy is fucked if that happens, as it surely will (Good luck blasting a Space Hulk and every single craft in it apart when it's not hell-bent on a slugging/ramming match).

[Covenant]

so what happens when some idiot releases the flood?

I'm going to venture that the Flood will be completely incapable of burrowing into a space marine chestplate, and thus mostly fucked, especially if some variety of Defiler wanders into the area and starts massacring everything with nasty fire and shit.

Guys without helmets have more of a problem, but honestly I've never seen a flood infestation body jump high enough to reach a space marine's head, and I'm not sure if they canonically go into combat without a helmet or if that's simply for the badassidness of a little model.

Given that, we're going to see a lot of human wave tactics with flood zombies, and that's not going to do anything other than amuse the CSM for a while. Zombies are not terribly worrisome for a massive superhuman soldier fused not only with unspeakably ancient and advanced armored, but also with the vile essence of a living god of hate or madness.

Cultists, beastdudes, and other worthless cannon-fodder will be able to be taken over, but this is the Halo 1 era, so there's no gravemind or significant biomass to speed up the transformation process. That means there may be several hours before a infestation form can take over the critter in question, and I find it doubtful that they'd not just rip the sucker off/out, even if it kills the host. Cultists are not terribly well treated. Being justified in shooting some might also amuse the CSM.

Orks... I dunno. I wouldn't be suprised if the Flood find them as annoying as the Hunters, in terms of bilogical compatibility. Regardless, they still might be viewed as a lovely food source, kinda. Do Orks even have a calcium bone structure? Orks can survive having their own heads blown off and sewn back on. Assuming that the orky algae forms in their bodies don't actively fuck up the Flood, I'm not sure what'll happen to the Flood when it tries to take over. A Dok might just amputate it with a chainsaw or hand-grenade, duct-tape what's left of the Ork together, and send him off on his way.

The Flood certainly complicate things, but they can't take over everything. There's several species that frustrate their tactics, and Orks are wierd enough that they might be one of 'em.

Best case? The Flood wake up after the Waagh is finished, and the surviving Orks starting beating each other to death to see who gets to rule the Big Ol' Ring. They find the Orks completely compatible with their methods, and begin converting them as fast as possible, and with a nice unified force, attack the Orks enmasse and use slightly superior tactics, since we'll assume they've gathered significant biomass to make a decent brain form.

Of course, the Orks dropped spores, so now new Orkinoid forms grow, and the Flood have an easy way to harvest biomass until the Halo itself is basically devoid of nutrients, as well as the added benefit of allowing their Orky combat forms to self-maintain and stay at good strength (not like the half-rotted marine types) and deposit orky spores wherever they land. A Gravemind won't be long away with that kind of an infrastructure.

[The Grim Squeaker]

so what happens when some idiot releases the flood?

I'm going to venture that the Flood will be completely incapable of burrowing into a space marine chestplate, and thus mostly fucked, especially if some variety of Defiler wanders into the area and starts massacring everything with nasty fire and shit.

Sounds about right.

Guys without helmets have more of a problem, but honestly I've never seen a flood infestation body jump high enough to reach a space marine's head, and I'm not sure if they canonically go into combat without a helmet or if that's simply for the badassidness of a little model.

One (all alone) did in "Halo:The Flood" the the MC's head/neck and it burrowed through the armour rapidly. If it hadn't been for Cortana setting up the shields for an insta-dry John would have been a Zombie.
Aren't Chaos Space marines the type to go around without helmets in-game, and not just when posing for the camera-daemon? (though most have helmets, and the Flood will be unable to get past that without some heavy fire-power, such as Rockets).

Given that, we're going to see a lot of human wave tactics with flood zombies, and that's not going to do anything other than amuse the CSM for a while. Zombies are not terribly worrisome for a massive superhuman soldier fused not only with unspeakably ancient and advanced armored, but also with the vile essence of a living god of hate or madness.

Especially when they like to make their own :d

Cultists, beastdudes, and other worthless cannon-fodder will be able to be taken over, but this is the Halo 1 era, so there's no gravemind or significant biomass to speed up the transformation process.

There are the Orks, and the Gravemind came about because of the Flood eating enough people, it wasn't the cause of their initial success.

That means there may be several hours before a infestation form can take over the critter in question, and I find it doubtful that they'd not just rip the sucker off/out, even if it kills the host.

The only solid source for hours is with Jenkins, and it was stated that his "form" was sick, old, and didn't "Work". (A one in a Quadrillion Fluke)ץ
Halo 3 has seconds, and even Halo 1 seems to indicate minutes at the Most. (The MC example for, well, example). The Gravemind seems to be a strategic boost, but we don't have a hard example that it somehow boosts the rate at which an Infection form takes over the hosts nervous system. And since Later Game mechanics should over-ride earlier, more limited ones..

Cultists are not terribly well treated.

Their moral is good enough to keep going when they see their comrades forsake their gods and start ripping their hearts out (without the necessary prayers)?

Being justified in shooting some might also amuse the CSM.

They don't need justification anyway :LOL:.

Orks... I dunno. I wouldn't be suprised if the Flood find them as annoying as the Hunters, in terms of bilogical compatibility.

Hunters are colonies of sentient Worms/muscle cells. The theory goes that the colony simply expells any infected "worms" (This isn't "The Thing" with a magical cell infection, it takes over A being).
Orks are a "vegetable" but they have brains, bones, muscles and blood, rather more simple than a colony of Worms .

Regardless, they still might be viewed as a lovely food source, kinda. Do Orks even have a calcium bone structure?

The Calcium is a resource, the Flood "take over" by sticking their little tentacles in and taking over the Nervous system. The Calcium is just a resource for making nastier forms once they have a resource base up and running.

Orks can survive having their own heads blown off and sewn back on.

So, they're tough, yes, so what? Brutes have skin and hair that can resist plasma fire better than energy shielding and can beat the shit out of Spartans in armour, and Flood-Human forms can leap dozens of meters and ignore having most of their limbs blasted off (complete with instant cauterization).

Assuming that the orky algae forms in their bodies don't actively fuck up the Flood, I'm not sure what'll happen to the Flood when it tries to take over.

Er, what are you saying here by Ork algae bodies? do you mean the Ork immune system will somehow fuck up the infection form? Thats...rather optimistic. (IT's not A cell based "virus", it re-writes the host via the nervous system, brain spine).

A Dok might just amputate it with a chainsaw or hand-grenade, duct-tape what's left of the Ork together, and send him off on his way.

So, the Dok would strap down an Ork-host, which would be many times stronger, and would then amputate the ORks chest, spine and a good chunk of its nervous system? And it would do this succesfully, on all the infected Orks? yeah...

The Flood certainly complicate things, but they can't take over everything. There's several species that frustrate their tactics, and Orks are wierd enough that they might be one of 'em.

Orks aren't that weird compared to Hunters, they don't share that unique trait.

Best case? The Flood wake up after the Waagh is finished, and the surviving Orks starting beating each other to death to see who gets to rule the Big Ol' Ring. They find the Orks completely compatible with their methods, and begin converting them as fast as possible, and with a nice unified force, attack the Orks enmasse and use slightly superior tactics, since we'll assume they've gathered significant biomass to make a decent brain form.

Well, hard to find a better source of Bio-mass than the Orks. (Unless you have the Tyranids, who actually are funky enough for them to potentially resist "floodification").

Of course, the Orks dropped spores, so now new Orkinoid forms grow, and the Flood have an easy way to harvest biomass until the Halo itself is basically devoid of nutrients, as well as the added benefit of allowing their Orky combat forms to self-maintain and stay at good strength (not like the half-rotted marine types) and deposit orky spores wherever they land. A Gravemind won't be long away with that kind of an infrastructure.

Ouch... Is it confirmed in Halo 3 whether the Delta-Halo based Gravemind formed after the Covenant started meddling initially or after the player arrives? That might give us a guideline as to how much time it took the Flood to break free and to gather hosts as well as to take "Pentitant Tangent" prisoner

[Connor MacLeod]

In "Eye of Terror" some Khornate Berserkers (World Eaters) actually went helmetless in the vaccuum of space.. so its possible that CSMs might not be "defenseless" without a helmet.

[The Grim Squeaker]

In "Eye of Terror" some Khornate Berserkers (World Eaters) actually went helmetless in the vaccuum of space.. so its possible that CSMs might not be "defenseless" without a helmet.

Was it inside the (reality warping) eye itself? Was it shown whether they were using a forcefield (such as that in Terminator armour) or some "warp" protection against breathing? (Did it protect their heads from physical trauma?)

[Connor MacLeod]

Was it inside the (reality warping) eye itself? Was it shown whether they were using a forcefield (such as that in Terminator armour) or some "warp" protection against breathing? (Did it protect their heads from physical trauma?)

It wasn't in the Eye, because they were out in the middle of space between systems (attempting ot destroy a World Eater base.) There was some indication of warp protection (there was some comment about supernatural protection despite the absecne of the helmets to protect htem from gunfire, I believe.)

[Covenant]

One (all alone) did in "Halo:The Flood" the the MC's head/neck and it burrowed through the armour rapidly. If it hadn't been for Cortana setting up the shields for an insta-dry John would have been a Zombie.

Yes, but a CSM could easily be 8 feet tall. I don't think the little hoppers would be able to get that high--they'd still be two feet down, and clank off around mid-chest level. Not that it matters all that much, as the infection forms are probably going to go for cultists firsts anyway.

The only solid source for hours is with Jenkins, and it was stated that his "form" was sick, old, and didn't "Work". (A one in a Quadrillion Fluke) Halo 3 has seconds, and even Halo 1 seems to indicate minutes at the Most. (The MC example for, well, example). The Gravemind seems to be a strategic boost, but we don't have a hard example that it somehow boosts the rate at which an Infection form takes over the hosts nervous system. And since Later Game mechanics should over-ride earlier, more limited ones..

You can run across other Flood just trying to complete an infestation, sitting there, inert for all purposes. It seems like they get faster and faster as the games go by, but even minutes gives some breathing room to the defenders. Flood aren't all that impressive combatants compared to the stuff in 40k, so even if they instantly turned every single cultist into a combat form, it's just going to get a lot of cultists killed.

Er, what are you saying here by Ork algae bodies? do you mean the Ork immune system will somehow fuck up the infection form? Thats...rather optimistic. (IT's not A cell based "virus", it re-writes the host via the nervous system, brain spine).

The Orks have an extremely unusual physiology, and my point about their toughness was that an infection body wouldn't, by necessity, mean that the Orks couldn't lop off the little infection thingie. I rather hate the idea of an organisim automatically knowing how to take over another critter's nervous system, but if we assume the Flood can take over an Ork, we still are faced with the possibility that it could take minutes or hours for the body to assert control over the Ork. I'm also not sure that Flood bodytypes are as strong as Orky bodies, so it's certainly possible that Flood-izing the Ork would just make it more ungainly, less vicious, and weaker.

However, it's also important to ask WHEN and how the Flood get out. If it's just a bunch of bouncing infection forms, an Ork with a burna' might kill them all right then and be done with it. If it happens after the battle, and one side or the other is the victor, then you stand a chance of there being several million dead Orks just lying around once the CSM get done.

Even so though, what happens when the flood take over all those bodies? The Chaos fleet will just blast the ring into pieces and go home.

[Vendetta]

Yes, but a CSM could easily be 8 feet tall. I don't think the little hoppers would be able to get that high--they'd still be two feet down, and clank off around mid-chest level. Not that it matters all that much, as the infection forms are probably going to go for cultists firsts anyway.

They can jump to head height on the Arbiter in Halo 3, and Elites are eight feet tall as well.

[Teleros]

(Unless you have the Tyranids, who actually are funky enough for them to potentially resist "floodification")

Given all the ridiculous stuff the Tyranids can do when it comes to this sort of thing, I'm guessing they'd overrun the Flood and harvest them .

In "Eye of Terror" some Khornate Berserkers (World Eaters) actually went helmetless in the vaccuum of space.. so its possible that CSMs might not be "defenseless" without a helmet.

Marines have that sus-an membrane or something that can let them survive in a vacuum for short periods IIRC.

They can jump to head height on the Arbiter in Halo 3, and Elites are eight feet tall as well.

I think the CSMs are probably even taller than 8ft. Some of the Gaunt's Ghosts characters were over 2m in height (~6.5ft), and CSMs tower over them. Didn't one bit even have it describing a CSM twice the height of a man?

[NecronLord]

I'm not positive that this a failure state for the Chaos Gods. At the very least, it would stop them pesky Necrons, wouldn't it? ;D

The chaos gods are fuelled by the emotions of sapient life. If it really destroyed all organics galaxy wide, it would kill them utterly.

The Necrons and their masters, on the other hand, will be inconvinienced (nothing to rule, unless they create more sapient species for the role), but will survive it.

[Vendetta]

There's probably a bit of variation in CSMs, given what Chaos taint does to them, but 8' is supposedly the baseline for the Astartes. The armour probably adds a few inches as well, due to big clompy boots.