Enterprise vs. Yamato

[Uraniun235]

I'm watching Space Battleship Yamato these days so I felt like putting this up for consideration:


The Starship Enterprise...



versus the Space Battleship Yamato!




I'm not yet halfway through the first Yamato series so I'm not nearly fully-versed on Yamato's specs.

The usual scenario: each ship is tasked with the other's destruction. Who wins?

[KlavoHunter]

Yamato loses the third bridge to Enterprise's opening salvo, before it fires the Graviton Wave Motion gun or whatever and obliterates Enterprise

[Sidewinder]

The Yamato is totally designed for 2-D combat-- no guns on the dorsal surface. If Kirk does what he did in 'The Wrath of Khan', he can blast the Yamato to subatomic particles without worrying about return fire.

[phongn]

The Yamato is totally designed for 2-D combat-- no guns on the dorsal surface. If Kirk does what he did in 'The Wrath of Khan', he can blast the Yamato to subatomic particles without worrying about return fire.

You can roll the ship, you know.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Yamato is totally designed for 2-D combat-- no guns on the dorsal surface. If Kirk does what he did in 'The Wrath of Khan', he can blast the Yamato to subatomic particles without worrying about return fire.

You can roll the ship, you know.

The phasers track the movement?

[Uraniun235]

Yamato wouldn't roll to evade fire, they'd roll so that the dorsal-mounted gun turrets would be able to fire on Enterprise.

[Sidewinder]

Yamato wouldn't roll to evade fire, they'd roll so that the dorsal-mounted gun turrets would be able to fire on Enterprise.

Can the Yamato's battleship guns (what are they, the original Yamato's 46 cm guns or something sci-fi, like lasers) pierce the Enterprise's shields?

[Batman]

The Yamato is totally designed for 2-D combat-- no guns on the dorsal surface. If Kirk does what he did in 'The Wrath of Khan', he can blast the Yamato to subatomic particles without worrying about return fire.

You can roll the ship, you know.

The phasers track the movement?

The ship would be rolling so it'd still be hit by the phaser beams regardless what with there not being any movement to track to begin with?

Yamato wouldn't roll to evade fire, they'd roll so that the dorsal-mounted gun turrets would be able to fire on Enterprise.

And unless their max elevation is a LOT more than the original Yamato's, they still can't if the Big E attacks from directly above.

[phongn]

And unless their max elevation is a LOT more than the original Yamato's, they still can't if the Big E attacks from directly above.

Roll the ship 90 degrees either way and Yamato's guns are unmasked.

[Sidewinder]

And unless their max elevation is a LOT more than the original Yamato's, they still can't if the Big E attacks from directly above.

:?:

Roll the ship 90 degrees either way and Yamato's guns are unmasked.

Has the Yamato ever performed this maneuver to fire upon a target above or below it? (I admit I've never seen 'Space Battleship Yamato' or 'Star Blazers'.)

[VF5SS]

The Yamato carries a lot of fighters as well. Can the Enterprise deal with those? What about the Wave Motion Gun?

[Uraniun235]

Yamato wouldn't roll to evade fire, they'd roll so that the dorsal-mounted gun turrets would be able to fire on Enterprise.

Can the Yamato's battleship guns (what are they, the original Yamato's 46 cm guns or something sci-fi, like lasers) pierce the Enterprise's shields?

They're "shock cannons", I think, and they pretty well cut down an entire squadron of Gamilus attack ships in one salvo. I don't know how durable Gamilus ships are, though.

The Yamato carries a lot of fighters as well. Can the Enterprise deal with those?

Uncertain just how much damage the fighter guns would do against a shielded Enterprise. The Enterprise could probably set phasers to "proximity burst mode" (TOS Balance of Terror) and do some damage to the fighters if they approach in tight formation. If the fighters prove too hairy, Enterprise could likely cut in warp drive and try to reposition itself (TOS Elaan of Troyius) away from the fighters on the other side of Yamato, giving Enterprise some time alone with the Yamato while the sublight fighters raced back.

What about the Wave Motion Gun?

I'm still only up to episode 12 on Space Battleship Yamato so I've only seen it fired twice; once against a solar prominence (which seemed to dissipate it) and once against a floating island hovering over Jupiter, destroying the island and sending it tumbling towards Jupiter. I'm not sure what exactly that event would calculate out to, but I'm inclined to suspect that a hit from the Wave Motion Gun would probably inflict at least heavy damage to even a fully-shielded Enterprise, if not outright destroy her.

On the other hand, the Wave Motion Gun is axially-mounted, so depending on how Enterprise manuevers, Yamato may not be able to get into a good position to strike Enterprise; it seems much better suited to stationary/slow-moving targets (although I could be wrong seeing as I've only seen the first half of the first series so far).

[Patrick Degan]

The advantages are all in the Enterprise's favour in this contest. The Federation starship is faster, more manoeuverable (indeed, the Argo handles like a pig and cannot easily change vector), can go to warp at will, has weaponry which outranges the Argo's main batteries and for the final touch has deflector shields which should withstand shock-cannon fire without significantly weakening.

The Black Tigers have nothing which could penetrate the shields, which makes their participation in this fight a non-factor, and the Argo's secondary defensive batteries consist of anti-spacecraft guns firing KE slugs.

The Argo could attempt to use its wave-motion gun, but then there's that pesky difficulty of how it renders the ship's entire armament useless during the charge-up time and how it requires aiming the entire ship at what is assumed will be a relatively stationary target. Somehow, I don't see Capt. Kirk simply sitting there waiting to be fired upon.

Outcome: the Argo gets carved up like a Christmas ham.

[Batman]

And unless their max elevation is a LOT more than the original Yamato's, they still can't if the Big E attacks from directly above.

Roll the ship 90 degrees either way and Yamato's guns are unmasked.

YAW or PITCH and THEN roll the ship 90 degrees and yes that's what happens. A ROLL period however isn't going to do much of anything firing-arc wise I'm afraid.

[AniThyng]

And unless their max elevation is a LOT more than the original Yamato's, they still can't if the Big E attacks from directly above.

Roll the ship 90 degrees either way and Yamato's guns are unmasked.

YAW or PITCH and THEN roll the ship 90 degrees and yes that's what happens. A ROLL period however isn't going to do much of anything firing-arc wise I'm afraid.

? If the enterprise is directly above, and assuming the guns are elevated to 45 deg, the Yamato just needs to roll 45 deg on it's axis and the guns will have a line of fire to the target, Yaw and pitch have nothing to do with this.

[FOG3]

The Yamato does eventually get a shield system, and its FTL eventually makes Trek's look pathetic, albeit on the way back. Wrath of Khan and otherwise doesn't have the Enterprise maneuvering harder then I recall the Argo doing. Considering this is the Enterprise, aren't their guns all axials, meaning they don't have an advantage over the Wave Motion Gun's traverse capability anyway? I can't recall any phaser strips on the Enterprise, that was a later ship thing. Granted the Wave Motion Gun is a chain-reaction weapon.

Its original captain also has a lot going for him in terms of flat out guts, and tactical ingenuity. So if he's in charge I'm going with him, because he makes Tylor look like a rank amateur.

[Patrick Degan]

? If the enterprise is directly above, and assuming the guns are elevated to 45 deg, the Yamato just needs to roll 45 deg on it's axis and the guns will have a line of fire to the target, Yaw and pitch have nothing to do with this.

And what stops the Enterprise from continuously firing her phasers during the Argo's roll? Or from simply warping out of the area and looping back to renew the attack on the Star Force's unprotected belly? And given how slowly that ship turns on her manoeuvering thrusters, just how are they going to guarantee getting their guns into a useful firing arc before the Enterprise carves her up?

[FOG3]

What's to stop the Yamato from activating that shield system they built on the way back and causing the phasers to simply bounce back and hit the Enterprise? I think if the main cannon off of you know who's ship is meant to be comparable to the wave motion gun it outranks phasers.

What's to stop the Yamato to use its Neo Galatica style FTL system to do the same kind of messing around, seems as how there's more for them doing that then there is for Kirk doing what you propose, Degan.

That ship has a luck streak that makes the Soyokaze's look weak by comparison.

[Ender]

The advantages are all in the Enterprise's favour in this contest. The Federation starship is faster, more manoeuverable (indeed, the Argo handles like a pig and cannot easily change vector), can go to warp at will, has weaponry which outranges the Argo's main batteries

What is that based on?

and for the final touch has deflector shields which should withstand shock-cannon fire without significantly weakening.

I don't know about that - as the most general equation Fp=(F*Ve)/2 gives you the power of an engine. The Yamato massed about 73,000 metric tons fully loaded. I don't know how fast it is, but lets say 1G. And I'm gonna go with Fusion for the engine as a guess, which has an exhaust velocity of 3% C. Plug and chug and you get a yield of 1 MT. Concentrate that into that small of an area and it will punch through.

The Argo could attempt to use its wave-motion gun, but then there's that pesky difficulty of how it renders the ship's entire armament useless during the charge-up time and how it requires aiming the entire ship at what is assumed will be a relatively stationary target. Somehow, I don't see Capt. Kirk simply sitting there waiting to be fired upon.

yeah, they may not be able to hit it, but it should still be able to rip through if it does.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So, what kind of firepower has the Yamato withstood?

[Uraniun235]

The Yamato does eventually get a shield system, and its FTL eventually makes Trek's look pathetic, albeit on the way back. Wrath of Khan and otherwise doesn't have the Enterprise maneuvering harder then I recall the Argo doing. Considering this is the Enterprise, aren't their guns all axials, meaning they don't have an advantage over the Wave Motion Gun's traverse capability anyway? I can't recall any phaser strips on the Enterprise, that was a later ship thing. Granted the Wave Motion Gun is a chain-reaction weapon.

Its original captain also has a lot going for him in terms of flat out guts, and tactical ingenuity. So if he's in charge I'm going with him, because he makes Tylor look like a rank amateur.

Enterprise has multiple phaser banks, as referenced by the dialogue in Balance of Terror. I don't believe the phasers in TOS were ever described or defined as axial only; I'm pretty sure they could be aimed without having to point the ship at the target.

In a close-in battle, ultimate long-range raw speed will not count for as much; Yamato's FTL seems to take considerable time to power up and activate (and leaves the crew rather disoriented after jumping) whereas the Enterprise rather freely engages her warp drive.

What's to stop the Yamato to use its Neo Galatica style FTL system to do the same kind of messing around, seems as how there's more for them doing that then there is for Kirk doing what you propose, Degan.

I wouldn't be too hasty to reference neoBSG's FTL system if I were you, seeing as how Galactica seems to have very much avoided any tactical FTL use. Star Trek at least has a couple of incidents of tactical FTL manuevers, including Balance of Terror (reverse warp power in an attempt to evade the Romulan weapon) and Elaan of Troyius, in which Kirk was preparing to engage warp drive to reposition the Enterprise before being stopped by Scotty's warning, and again when Kirk orders warp speed to present a different shield face to the Klingons.

I don't know about that - as the most general equation Fp=(F*Ve)/2 gives you the power of an engine. The Yamato massed about 73,000 metric tons fully loaded. I don't know how fast it is, but lets say 1G. And I'm gonna go with Fusion for the engine as a guess, which has an exhaust velocity of 3% C. Plug and chug and you get a yield of 1 MT. Concentrate that into that small of an area and it will punch through.

That's valid only if the total energy output of that engine were being directed through those guns. A valid assumption for the Wave Motion Gun, but not for the Shock Cannons.

What is that based on?

The incident which springs most readily to my mind is the battle against the Klingon battlecruiser in Elaan of Troyius, in which the warp drive was used during combat to rapidly turn the ship and present a different shield side to the Klingons, to reinforce the shields, and to position the ship for a photon torpedo strike against the Klingon ship. Scotty and Sulu both indicate in their dialogue that the Enterprise handles like a crippled hippopotamus at impulse power and cannot manuever fast enough to engage an enemy starship without a functioning warp drive.

[Patrick Degan]

What's to stop the Yamato from activating that shield system they built on the way back and causing the phasers to simply bounce back and hit the Enterprise?

You mean the reflex forcefield which was never seen again in series? Should've come in rather handy during the Comet Empire War, dont you think?

What's to stop the Yamato to use its Neo Galatica style FTL system to do the same kind of messing around, seems as how there's more for them doing that then there is for Kirk doing what you propose, Degan.

And just when has it taken less than a thirty-second countdown to build up power to activate their warp jump? As for more instances of the Enterprise performing such manoeuvers, I suggest you re-watch the TOS episodes "Elaan Of Troyus", "Balance Of Terror", and "Arena" as examples of how quickly that ship (and comparable classes) can go to warp, exit an area, and return. The one and only time we ever saw the Argo perform a micro-jump was when they pulled a last-ditch trick to ram Desslok's flagship to board it —and again, that required a 60 second countdown. When has it ever taken that long for the Enterprise to go to warp?

Why didn't we see this sort of "messing around" by the Argo during the battles that ship fought in the Comet Empire War (save that one incident)? Or against the Dark Nebula Empire forces in two movies? Or against both the Bolar and Gamilon fleets in series III? Or against the Denguil in Final Yamato? The Argo's space warp system is optimised to get that ship across huge distances in space in a flash, but it's highly inflexible and energy-intensive.

That ship has a luck streak that makes the Soyokaze's look weak by comparison.

Against similarly-capable opposition vessels. The Enterprise is not one of those and has capabilities nobody in the SB/SBY universe has seen or employed on a regular basis if ever.

[Patrick Degan]

The advantages are all in the Enterprise's favour in this contest. The Federation starship is faster, more manoeuverable (indeed, the Argo handles like a pig and cannot easily change vector), can go to warp at will, has weaponry which outranges the Argo's main batteries

What is that based on?

The Enterprise's manoeuverability is easily confirmed by multiple episodes of TOS such as "Elaan Of Troyus", "Arena", "Balance Of Terror", "Whom Gods Destroy". The Argo's lack of manoeuverability is clearly on display in several of the major battles that ship underwent in both the Gamilon and Comet Empire Wars (particularly the Battle of the Rainbow Cluster, series 1, and the showdown battle with Desslok, series 2). The effective range for the upgraded shock-cannons mounted on the Argo during the Comet Empire War was given as 24 megametres (24,000km) by either Dash or Sandor in the Star Force's first encounter with Comet Empire forces at Brummas.

and for the final touch has deflector shields which should withstand shock-cannon fire without significantly weakening.

I don't know about that - as the most general equation Fp=(F*Ve)/2 gives you the power of an engine. The Yamato massed about 73,000 metric tons fully loaded. I don't know how fast it is, but lets say 1G. And I'm gonna go with Fusion for the engine as a guess, which has an exhaust velocity of 3% C. Plug and chug and you get a yield of 1 MT. Concentrate that into that small of an area and it will punch through.

The shock-cannons are not the wave-motion gun, so those equations are moot in regards to the effectiveness of the main batteries against a fully-shielded Enterprise.

The Argo could attempt to use its wave-motion gun, but then there's that pesky difficulty of how it renders the ship's entire armament useless during the charge-up time and how it requires aiming the entire ship at what is assumed will be a relatively stationary target. Somehow, I don't see Capt. Kirk simply sitting there waiting to be fired upon.

yeah, they may not be able to hit it, but it should still be able to rip through if it does.

I am constrained to point out that the Enterprise's shields withstood four full blasts of the planet-killer's antiproton beam before being taken down in "The Doomsday Machine" and the equivalent of 270 photon torpedos delivered by the energy bolts launched by Nomad before failing in "The Changeling"; also that they withstood a near point-blank detonation of a Romulan nuclear warhead in "Balance Of Terror". Of course, that is also a moot question: Capt. Kirk will not simply sit there and wait for the Argo to bring her wave-motion gun into line-of-sight and full charge before he orders Sulu to move the ship to a different attack vector, which the Enterprise can peform in far less time than it takes the Argo to make even a single pivot turn.

[VF5SS]

[quote="Patrick Degan"]

You mean the reflex forcefield which was never seen again in series? Should've come in rather handy during the Comet Empire War, dont you think?

The Comet Empire War doesn't exist. Everybody died at the end of Farewell to Space Battleship Yamato, remember? Oh god, why did they have to make a second season...

[Patrick Degan]

You mean the reflex forcefield which was never seen again in series? Should've come in rather handy during the Comet Empire War, dont you think?

The Comet Empire War doesn't exist. Everybody died at the end of Farewell to Space Battleship Yamato, remember? Oh god, why did they have to make a second season...

Except the reflex forcefield wasn't seen in FSBY either.