Imperial Munitorum manual extra content discussion

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-10-06 02:59am

At least, i think its extra content.

While browsing the BL site the other day when I was checking on the price/availability of the book, I noticed that it had alot of extra downloads that you can see here

Sufficed to say, the artillery and vehicles chapter was an interesting read nonetheless. The great bulk of it seems to have been lifted from earlier sources - I recongize a ton of it being from the 2nd edition Guard Codex (the vehicle descriptions in particular.)

Given that alot of this seems to be a direct lift from other sources, I won't be doing an analysis in totallity. BEsides, its available to download and perussal by anyone, so its not nearly as esoteric as, say, the 2nd edition Guard Codex was. But I would find it interesting to discuss some of the tidbits.

Stuff carried over from the 2nd edition include:

- The tandem shaped-charge/explosive ammo fo the Demolisher cannon, and is also noted to be simialr to a kind of "anti-tank" ammo that a battle cannon uses

- Chimeras and Russes have variable powerplants (The chimeras get their "sub-nuclear" stacks, for example.)

- Griffon mortar "melta" rounds.

- the "power" of a basilisk gun.

- Sentinels having gyroscopic sensors (for stability)

I may comment on some other neat stuff later, but I thought you guys should be given a chance ot read it and comment on your own. enjoy.

Oh, and the sample intro has some of the neat details others have mentioned frorm it (like about autocannon.) It also has some data on protecitve gear, targetsrs, and thel like.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2007-10-06 03:21am

8 The lethality of the hunter/killer missiles was proven beyond doubt when a missile fired by the Leman
Russ Glory of Heller went straight through the tank it was aimed at and penetrated the armour of the vehicle
next to it. A missile fired in a later battle went clean through a two-metre beam and knocked out an
enemy troop carrier on the other side. In both instances, the hunter/killer performed a feat it was supposedly
incapable of accomplishing.

Wow, that's impressive.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-10-06 05:15am

Imperial Munitorum Manual wrote:If the fighting is taking part
on an Imperial planet, then the world’s own locally produced fighting machines may also be available, which can take almost any form from primitive landclads to sand crawlers and ultra-fast speeders.

Someone else may also have commented on this, but this shows that vehicles similar to Land Speeders are not the exclusive property of the Astartes. It doesn't say whether they're anti-grav vehicles or something simpler (an ACV for example), but they're there.

Imperial Munitorum Manual wrote:This variant of the Leman Russ is manufactured on the forge world of Gryphonne IV and nowhere else, making this world of the Adeptus Mechanicus one of the most vital in the Imperium.

A rare example of original Forgeworld fluff being confirmed

Apparently due to personality issues within GW, Forgeworld and the Design Studio don't get along. Examples of this include the two Tau fleets for Battlefleet Gothic and the fact that after Forgeworld apparently scoured the old Codex Titanicus supplement for a Forgeworld name, Gryphonne IV was written off as destroyed by an offshoot Tyranid fleet.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2007-10-06 06:28am

I'm personally hoping for more stuff like this, although Warseers little "we hate BL stuff" crowd are probably already spitting over it.

gotta love the Hunter Killer missiles though, I'm not sure any modern anti-tank missile could could duplicate that feat with the beam and the troop carrier!

Most of the downloads are just reissues of earlier stuff though, even the comments on anti-grav aren't exclusive.

Nice to see them going through lots of stuff though, rather than bullshitting up some new vague bits.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-10-06 06:32am

I always like HK missiles; the fact that they do shit that the Imperium never intended (and it positive to boot) is quite amusing.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-10-06 06:48am

The replacement of the standard battle cannon with the smaller, less destructive Conqueror cannon gave the tank a much greater
mobility, allowing it to keep pace with the titans and participate in the final
destruction of the besiegers of Castra Septus.

Conquerors are noted to be able to "keep pace with titans", suggesting a similar vehicle speed.

Against particularly sophisticated enemies, vehicles must also
be concealed fromorbital surveillance and alien surveyors/biological senses.

...

Some camo-netting has heat reflective qualities (though often
this is a fluke of production rather than design7) that will defeat enemies able to perceive objects in the infrared spectrum.

Properties and requirements of Imperium camoflage/camo-netting.

Hunter/killer missiles are typically fitted with a krak warhead, though rarer
issues may have a melta warhead.

melta warheads, while uncommon, aren't unusual either. Not surprising since man portable rocket launchers can carry melta warheads as well.

Communication is the key to success in any military endeavour and this is never truer thanwhen tanks go towar.

Another of those "Napoleonic/WW1/WW2" tactics that the Imperium is known to be mocked for. (From the tank vehicle vox sets)

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-10-06 06:51am

white_rabbit wrote:even the comments on anti-grav aren't exclusive.

Yeah, but I've forgotten where I read it first. Possibly the 2nd edition Codex: Imperial Guard, but I'm not sure. Certainly the 2nd edition Codex: Tyranids implied it, by allowing Genestealer Cult armies access to equipment denied to the Guard, such as Mole Mortars, Land Speeders and heavy plasma guns.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-10-06 06:58am

white_rabbit wrote: gotta love the Hunter Killer missiles though, I'm not sure any modern anti-tank missile could could duplicate that feat with the beam and the troop carrier!

Pffft! The Imperial Guard is CLEARLY inferior to modern forcecs! They use napoleonic/WW1 human wave mass charge tactics alone! They use bayonets! They lack access to the extensive nuclear arsenals that modern forcees would employ in such situations! They lack the superior sensors and command and control capability of modern forces! And their soldiers only fight out of fear of being killed by a Commissar!

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-06 10:31am

Gryphonne IV was written off as destroyed by an offshoot Tyranid fleet

I keep hoping the AdMech will return there actually. I can't see the Tyranids eating databases, so a lot of the infrastructure may have survived.

Steel · Post by **Steel** » 2007-10-06 10:38am

Teleros wrote:
Gryphonne IV was written off as destroyed by an offshoot Tyranid fleet
I keep hoping the AdMech will return there actually. I can't see the Tyranids eating databases, so a lot of the infrastructure may have survived.

Eeeer what? The nids eat the top few km of crust at the very least...

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-06 10:45am

Well it's not as if the AdMech doesn't have deeper facilities than that. There was also that White Dwarf article that showed a fairly fertile world wasted by the Tyranids: the ruins of an Imperial city were very visible in one of the associated pics. Compare that to a Forge World, which has been built over, strip-mined, rebuilt over etc etc, and there's probably not that much there once you get beyond the techpriests, servitors and whatnot.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2007-10-06 05:09pm

Steel wrote:
Teleros wrote:
Gryphonne IV was written off as destroyed by an offshoot Tyranid fleet
I keep hoping the AdMech will return there actually. I can't see the Tyranids eating databases, so a lot of the infrastructure may have survived.
Eeeer what? The nids eat the top few km of crust at the very least...

The facility on Tyran had a sub-crustal facility, which obviously survived as the data Codex was recovered to give the first real images of the Nids, and Battle For Armageddon makes reference to an Administratum facility which goes 49000 meters below sea level, and thousands above. funny note, the minion Adept types have implants to help them cope, which also kill them if they get too high about sea level

No holidays in the Imperium!

There was also that White Dwarf article that showed a fairly fertile world wasted by the Tyranids: the ruins of an Imperial city were very visible in one of the associated pics

The Nids don't always polish off worlds as fully as they might, some worlds have been reduced to balls of rock, others just ruined cityscapes.

Pffft! The Imperial Guard is CLEARLY inferior to modern forcecs! They use napoleonic/WW1 human wave mass charge tactics alone! They use bayonets!

If you refer to the recent SB thread, I couldn't understand why he was so unwilling to post references, after all, His Last Command has bayonet charges. Then I checked my notes, and saw the bit about how it was a desperate move, an "antique" tactic, and that the terrain and close proximity of the enemy, plus the requirement to dig them out led to it. and they "still" shot the fuck out of them as well.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-10-07 03:12am

Ford Prefect wrote:I always like HK missiles; the fact that they do shit that the Imperium never intended (and it positive to boot) is quite amusing.

What did they do with the Hunter-Killer missiles?

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2007-10-07 05:41am

Read the quote above; the HK was presumably designed to hit one tank and blow it up. I don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus specifically designed the missile to kill the tank behind the one it was aimed at.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-10-07 05:49am

I missed that.

I supposed, then, that the HK missiles fuze when (whatever guidance system is used), they know they've reached the target location, rather than proximity or impact fuzing?
That's beyond what modern missiles do right?

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-10-07 07:15am

The main thing is how they just bore through objects in their way. Punching through a Leman Russ, or through a two metre thick support and taking out vehicles on the other side is ... mad. Awesome, but mad.

darthbob88 · Post by **darthbob88** » 2007-10-07 01:57pm

Ford Prefect wrote:The main thing is how they just bore through objects in their way. Punching through a Leman Russ, or through a two metre thick support and taking out vehicles on the other side is ... mad. Awesome, but mad.

Machine spirit FTW?

Laughing Mechanicus · Post by **Laughing Mechanicus** » 2007-10-07 02:30pm

fgalkin wrote:
8 The lethality of the hunter/killer missiles was proven beyond doubt when a missile fired by the Leman
Russ Glory of Heller went straight through the tank it was aimed at and penetrated the armour of the vehicle
next to it. A missile fired in a later battle went clean through a two-metre beam and knocked out an
enemy troop carrier on the other side. In both instances, the hunter/killer performed a feat it was supposedly
incapable of accomplishing.
Wow, that's impressive.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I've seen that phrase before - the writer lifted that straight from the FAS.org article on the TOW missile, changing the names and wording a little to suit 40k. See below:

FAS.org wrote:The lethality of the TOW missile was proven beyond doubt during the 100-hour ground campaign when one of the antitank munitions fired by US troops went right through the tank it was aimed at and penetrated another tank parked next to it. Another TOW went through a six foot dirt berm and knocked out an Iraqi armored personnel carrier on the otherside. In both instances, the TOW performed a feat which it supposedly was incapable of accomplishing.

Look about half-way down this page. It would be interesting to see if any other parts of the manual were written that way, it seems a bit lazy.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-10-08 12:45am

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-10-08 12:58am

Aaron Ash wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
8 The lethality of the hunter/killer missiles was proven beyond doubt when a missile fired by the Leman
Russ Glory of Heller went straight through the tank it was aimed at and penetrated the armour of the vehicle
next to it. A missile fired in a later battle went clean through a two-metre beam and knocked out an
enemy troop carrier on the other side. In both instances, the hunter/killer performed a feat it was supposedly
incapable of accomplishing.
Wow, that's impressive.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
I've seen that phrase before - the writer lifted that straight from the FAS.org article on the TOW missile, changing the names and wording a little to suit 40k. See below:

FAS.org wrote:The lethality of the TOW missile was proven beyond doubt during the 100-hour ground campaign when one of the antitank munitions fired by US troops went right through the tank it was aimed at and penetrated another tank parked next to it. Another TOW went through a six foot dirt berm and knocked out an Iraqi armored personnel carrier on the otherside. In both instances, the TOW performed a feat which it supposedly was incapable of accomplishing.
Look about half-way down this page. It would be interesting to see if any other parts of the manual were written that way, it seems a bit lazy.

Two things though. 1.) 40K tanks are demonstrably tough (they deal with alot of explosives/firepower that is many times more destructive than what modern forces have access too, High explosive or kinetic.) so the "shooting through two tanks" bit is to be considered even more impressive from that regard.

2.) a two metre "beam" is still more impressive than a six foot "berm" of dirt (and again, even 40K APCs are better than modern ones.)

Edit: The first one also doesn't take into account where the missiles hit and the shapes of the tank. 40K tanks tend to be bigger/boxier than modern ones, so hitting penetrating can be alot tougher/messier.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2007-10-08 01:57am

Still, I'm shocked that a Games Workshop writer would've done something like that. I mean, he could've at least swapped some of the sentences around.

I always viewed GW as this old fashioned company that refuses to modernize (Damnatus anyone?), but view quality as something of paramount importance.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2007-10-08 03:16am

Cykeisme wrote:Still, I'm shocked that a Games Workshop writer would've done something like that. I mean, he could've at least swapped some of the sentences around.

I always viewed GW as this old fashioned company that refuses to modernize (Damnatus anyone?), but view quality as something of paramount importance.

Money is of paramount importance to GW, whatever the various divisions think, I guess that as long as they make money, they can do stuff fairly independantly, which for the past few years is where the quality stuff came from, when they don't make money, they get downsized or reabsorbed (fanatic anybody ?)

I'm not honestly surprised myself, they've clearly been rummaging around similar sources for the Primers and the manual, and those anecdotes are pretty much perfect for the Hunter-killer. I've seen similarities and so forth in a lot of the online military stuff I've browsed.

I look at it this way, at least they are looking in the right place as opposed to pulling it out of their arses entirely.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-10-08 05:42am

white_rabbit wrote: I look at it this way, at least they are looking in the right place as opposed to pulling it out of their arses entirely.

At least until Karen Traviss or KJA decide to plague Black Library

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2007-10-08 07:16am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
white_rabbit wrote: I look at it this way, at least they are looking in the right place as opposed to pulling it out of their arses entirely.
At least until Karen Traviss or KJA decide to plague Black Library

Cough "Goto" Cough

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2007-10-08 07:27am

DEATH wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
white_rabbit wrote: I look at it this way, at least they are looking in the right place as opposed to pulling it out of their arses entirely.
At least until Karen Traviss or KJA decide to plague Black Library
Cough "Goto" Cough

I doubt you even know what you are talking about with regards Goto

I have to be honest, I never got the Karen Traviss stuff anyway, she always seemed fairly polite and reasonable when I spoke to her. Seriously, if you want to blame authors for shit numbers in a franchise like SW, or on a smaller scale 40k, its the editorial oversight that you should take issue with.