Torchwood: Countrycide (yeah, spoilers)

[Broomstick]

"Countrycide" bothered me, but not because of the cannibalism. I mean, that was squicky, but several other things bothered me more.

1) Are Europeans - especially police officers - really sooooo reluctant to use firearms as Gwen Cooper? She acts like the gun is going to bite her, and worse yet, she seems unable to bring herself to shoot someone who EATS PEOPLE and is intent on butchering her - is there a clearer instance of self-defense? I understand that in the UK street cops don't routinely carry guns but special ops certainly do when there is a need, and Gwen is now "special ops", right?

2) Who is the one person who charges in, guns blazing, to kill the bad guys and save the day? Right - the American. I may or may not be misreading this, but the American in the Torchwood group is, apparently, the only one capable of shooting someone and has to be calmed down to keep from massacring all of the bad guys. Yay, right? Jack saves everyone - oh, wait, is that how the UK audience sees Americans, slavering gun-crazies? But handy to have around when something needs shootin' Frankly, the young man who shoots Gwen thinking she was one of the baddies seems more equipped for survival and dealing with the situation than most of Torchwood. By the way - why didn't "Mr I Can't Die" lead the way into that situation?

3) If a co-worker came on to me like Owen did, especially with the slamming me up against a tree and holding me there, and the bullshit nose-to-nose "conversation", I'd knee him in the happy sack. That's not seduction, that's threat. And she goes to bed with him? WTF does that have to do with the main story? How is it not gratuitous and pointless addition of sexual elements. And do the writers have any clue about how women work? Oh, sure, there might be some women who'd cave, but not usually self-respecting, confident women which Gwen presumably is, right? It comes across to me as a male fantasy of female seduction bordering on a rape fantasy.

[Johonebesus]

3) If a co-worker came on to me like Owen did, especially with the slamming me up against a tree and holding me there, and the bullshit nose-to-nose "conversation", I'd knee him in the happy sack. That's not seduction, that's threat. And she goes to bed with him? WTF does that have to do with the main story? How is it not gratuitous and pointless addition of sexual elements. And do the writers have any clue about how women work? Oh, sure, there might be some women who'd cave, but not usually self-respecting, confident women which Gwen presumably is, right? It comes across to me as a male fantasy of female seduction bordering on a rape fantasy.

Well, it's not entirely pointless. There is a theme in the series of Torchwood sucking you in and taking over your life. Prior to this there have been a few conversations where Gwen is surprised to learn that none of her coworkers have friends or romantic interests outside of work, and Jack at first tells her to give up on her life, then encourages her to hang on to her boyfriend and outside interests. None-the-less she has found herself growing more and more distant from her boyfriend, so this is just another step in that direction. I agree with you about Owen's behavior, but then Gwen seems to me to have been a little messed up from the start, even if she wasn't supposed to be.

[Big Orange]

1) Are Europeans - especially police officers - really sooooo reluctant to use firearms as Gwen Cooper? She acts like the gun is going to bite her, and worse yet, she seems unable to bring herself to shoot someone who EATS PEOPLE and is intent on butchering her - is there a clearer instance of self-defense? I understand that in the UK street cops don't routinely carry guns but special ops certainly do when there is a need, and Gwen is now "special ops", right?

Jack recruited a normal street plodder instead of a Armed Response Unit member, Special Branch officer or a agent from either MI5/MI6/UNIT. Jack is a very poor judge of character when most of the people he has with him are selfish to point of being almost sociopathic (full blown pathological psychopathy in Suzie's case) and are highly inept in many cases, acting in a grossly unprofessional manner (Ianto and Gwen, I'm looking at you).

2) Who is the one person who charges in, guns blazing, to kill the bad guys and save the day? Right - the American. I may or may not be misreading this, but the American in the Torchwood group is, apparently, the only one capable of shooting someone and has to be calmed down to keep from massacring all of the bad guys. Yay, right? Jack saves everyone - oh, wait, is that how the UK audience sees Americans, slavering gun-crazies? But handy to have around when something needs shootin' Frankly, the young man who shoots Gwen thinking she was one of the baddies seems more equipped for survival and dealing with the situation than most of Torchwood. By the way - why didn't "Mr I Can't Die" lead the way into that situation?

He actually shoots to maim, but it is annoying that you've got a small team with no proper support from their base (which is unrealisticly under manned) or the authorities (who would've picked up on the cannibal murders in a village nearby Cardiff much quicker in real life).

3) If a co-worker came on to me like Owen did, especially with the slamming me up against a tree and holding me there, and the bullshit nose-to-nose "conversation", I'd knee him in the happy sack. That's not seduction, that's threat. And she goes to bed with him? WTF does that have to do with the main story? How is it not gratuitous and pointless addition of sexual elements. And do the writers have any clue about how women work? Oh, sure, there might be some women who'd cave, but not usually self-respecting, confident women which Gwen presumably is, right? It comes across to me as a male fantasy of female seduction bordering on a rape fantasy.

Yeah, that bit really, really turned me off and I actively shouted at the screen when the mopey Gwen shacked up with the ultra creepy and sleezy Owen, who had essentially sexually assualted her in "Countrycide". I actually kinda of like Owen as a nasty but interesting character (a creep fits in well with a ruthless para-government agency), but like many other potentially good elements in Torchwood, Season One, he was poorly implemented.

[Dartzap]

About the gun thing - Don't forget that we actually are shown Gwen training with Guns, and it wasn't exactly up to CO19 standards, so its fair to say that she probably still doesn't have a great knowledge of how to use the thing.

As for Jack being a gung-ho fellow who shoots people...well..he has had some practice, that's all I'm saying, there's more to it than "Hurr, American"

As for Owen... as the series progresses you will realise that he, Gwen, Ianto and the rest are a giant group of bastards who should really be locked up in secure units for their own good.

Infact, they really should have a C019 squad...admittedly UNIT probably has Dibs on 'em, though.

[Big Orange]

As for Owen... as the series progresses you will realise that he, Gwen, Ianto and the rest are a giant group of bastards who should really be locked up in secure units for their own good.

Ianto and Suzie were the only genuinely nutty and very dangerous of the lot, with Gwen, Tosh, Jack and Owen being relatively normal in comparison (only that the former two are dramatically out of their depth and reacting badly under stressful circumstances, while the latter two are potentially competent operatives but are unmanged loose cannons with their own hang-ups, with no real authority to reign them in).

Infact, they really should have a C019 squad...admittedly UNIT probably has Dibs on 'em, though.

There should be much more to do with UNIT and Torchwood should still be a very big organization with cells and bases across the country (but the Battle of Canary Wharf has still severly damaged the coherency of the Institute and would take decades to recover).

[speaker-to-trolls]

I have a personal theory that the new writing staff don't like UNIT and are trying to keep them out of the loop as much as possible. In Aliens of London most of their experts got electrocuted, in The Christmas Invasion it was Torchwood, not UNIT, who blew up the aliens, they did nothing to stop Torchwoods shenanigans all through season two and were completely impotent in the season three finale. They're mentioned in Torchwood at least once, and it's just as the last of a list of people depending on the Innuendo Squad to sort everything out. Maybe the writers think UNIT is a link to the old series that they want to sever or maybe they just don't like/trust big government organisations (see Torchwood 1, a bunch of well equipped, government backed crypto-fascists) on principle.

[Umbras]

Since when is Jack an American? He is an alien that shares the same physiology as humans. He also has seen enough in his time to know how to handle a gun or cannon and is not shy about doing so.

[El Moose Monstero]

I have a personal theory that the new writing staff don't like UNIT and are trying to keep them out of the loop as much as possible. In Aliens of London most of their experts got electrocuted, in The Christmas Invasion it was Torchwood, not UNIT, who blew up the aliens, they did nothing to stop Torchwoods shenanigans all through season two and were completely impotent in the season three finale. They're mentioned in Torchwood at least once, and it's just as the last of a list of people depending on the Innuendo Squad to sort everything out. Maybe the writers think UNIT is a link to the old series that they want to sever or maybe they just don't like/trust big government organisations (see Torchwood 1, a bunch of well equipped, government backed crypto-fascists) on principle.

It might be because they were told that they couldn't refer to it as the United Nations Intelligence Taskforce (or whatever) by the UN anymore. Maybe they decided that instead of making them a part of the episodes and having new viewing people try to remember who the hell they were, they'd just stop referring to them apart from on the side lines.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Since when is Jack an American? He is an alien that shares the same physiology as humans. He also has seen enough in his time to know how to handle a gun or cannon and is not shy about doing so.

No, he's human, the Doctor says so in The Doctor Dances, he's just a human from the far future.

[Stark]

Broomstick, you have to remember that the Torchwood crew are *clinically retarded*. As I've said before, Gwen being staggeringly stupid drives many of the plots, and when it's not her it's one (or all) of the others.

Ianto should be sectioned, Toshi needs counselling and doesn't belong on the front line of any organisation more stressful than a hotdog stand, Owen has such massive unresolved father issues it boggles the mind, and Gwen is quite simply a retarded hypocritical bitch. So you see, they're not really competent, and expecting them to act like professionals in any capacity is just going to make the season more difficult. None of this will ever be used for interesting drama, either, because the writing sucks. Amusingly, Jack is cripplingly naive about his team and exercises almost no control over them whatsoever - he instantly becomes un-retarded again when he showed up in Doctor Who, but doubtless he'll be back to 'duh are you guys stealin mah shit???' mode again in T2.

If it helps any, I couldn't watch all of Countrycide and didn't watch any more until the finale. You should certainly watch the whole season though, because in about 2 episodes it really starts going to shit.

[Broomstick]

3) If a co-worker came on to me like Owen did, especially with the slamming me up against a tree and holding me there, and the bullshit nose-to-nose "conversation", I'd knee him in the happy sack. That's not seduction, that's threat. And she goes to bed with him? WTF does that have to do with the main story? How is it not gratuitous and pointless addition of sexual elements. And do the writers have any clue about how women work? Oh, sure, there might be some women who'd cave, but not usually self-respecting, confident women which Gwen presumably is, right? It comes across to me as a male fantasy of female seduction bordering on a rape fantasy.

Well, it's not entirely pointless. There is a theme in the series of Torchwood sucking you in and taking over your life. Prior to this there have been a few conversations where Gwen is surprised to learn that none of her coworkers have friends or romantic interests outside of work, and Jack at first tells her to give up on her life, then encourages her to hang on to her boyfriend and outside interests. None-the-less she has found herself growing more and more distant from her boyfriend, so this is just another step in that direction. I agree with you about Owen's behavior, but then Gwen seems to me to have been a little messed up from the start, even if she wasn't supposed to be.

Maybe it's because I had an uncle who worked undercover for a couple decades with the St. Louis police force yet managed to maintain a stable marriage and family during his career. Obviously he couldn't talk about his work at home. I have a sister who did classified work for the Department of Defense and I still don't know what the hell she did for them - and likely never will. Her job did require travel, for her to be away from her family for days at a time. Yet she maintained a stable marriage and family life throughout.

Belonging to a Secret Organization does not automatically mean your family life falls to shit, although that seems to be the way this is portrayed. Sure, it's a stress, but mature adults can usually work around that - oh, wait, that's right, it requires mature adults...

[Broomstick]

1) Are Europeans - especially police officers - really sooooo reluctant to use firearms as Gwen Cooper? She acts like the gun is going to bite her, and worse yet, she seems unable to bring herself to shoot someone who EATS PEOPLE and is intent on butchering her - is there a clearer instance of self-defense? I understand that in the UK street cops don't routinely carry guns but special ops certainly do when there is a need, and Gwen is now "special ops", right?

Jack recruited a normal street plodder instead of a Armed Response Unit member, Special Branch officer or a agent from either MI5/MI6/UNIT.

Oh, please - before I ever touched a gun I was taught two very important rules:

1) Don't point it at something you don't want to shoot (i.e. people you like)
2) If you aren't willing to use the weapon don't carry it.

#1 is obvious (but Gwen blows it in the very first time we see her with a gun, nevermind that she couldn't have killed Jack with it). #2 is important because when you're confronting Bad Guys and a bluff is called you are in deep shit. If you carry a gun and aren't willing to use it as intended then it is more likely your adversary will take it from you and use it against you.

Jack is a very poor judge of character when most of the people he has with him are selfish to point of being almost sociopathic (full blown pathological psychopathy in Suzie's case) and are highly inept in many cases, acting in a grossly unprofessional manner (Ianto and Gwen, I'm looking at you).

Yep, that is becoming apparent.

2) Who is the one person who charges in, guns blazing, to kill the bad guys and save the day? Right - the American. I may or may not be misreading this, but the American in the Torchwood group is, apparently, the only one capable of shooting someone and has to be calmed down to keep from massacring all of the bad guys. Yay, right? Jack saves everyone - oh, wait, is that how the UK audience sees Americans, slavering gun-crazies? But handy to have around when something needs shootin' Frankly, the young man who shoots Gwen thinking she was one of the baddies seems more equipped for survival and dealing with the situation than most of Torchwood. By the way - why didn't "Mr I Can't Die" lead the way into that situation?

He actually shoots to maim,

I'm not sure that's morally superior....

...but it is annoying that you've got a small team with no proper support from their base (which is unrealisticly under manned) or the authorities (who would've picked up on the cannibal murders in a village nearby Cardiff much quicker in real life).

And that is not realistic, either - granted there are rivalries between various segments of authority, but in real life the enforcement arms of society will cooperate to accomplish the greater good of catching the Bad Guys.

And yeah, Torchwood Cardiff is woefully undermanned. They're amateurs.

[Broomstick]

About the gun thing - Don't forget that we actually are shown Gwen training with Guns, and it wasn't exactly up to CO19 standards, so its fair to say that she probably still doesn't have a great knowledge of how to use the thing.

What's "CO19"?

Also - I'm no gun authority, either, but there are some glaring errors with how they deal with guns on this show. They get some things right - like people who are shot don't heroically carry on, they tend to roll on the ground screaming and bleeding - but they get some basic, basic stuff wrong.

As for Jack being a gung-ho fellow who shoots people...well..he has had some practice, that's all I'm saying, there's more to it than "Hurr, American"

Well, that's why I threw it out there - I wasn't sure if they were adhering to a stereotype or not. Sure, Jack has had practice - we've seen that he's been in various militaries over the years, if nothing else.

[Broomstick]

Since when is Jack an American?

Everyone in Torchwood thinks he's an American. He sounds like a Midwestern American. Given how long he's been on Earth he might even BE an American because the Constitution says nothing about being homo sapiens as a requirement of citizenship.

[Black Admiral]

What's "CO19"?

Also known as Special Firearms Command, our equivalent of US SWAT teams.

[Stark]

Everyone in Torchwood thinks he's an American. He sounds like a Midwestern American. Given how long he's been on Earth he might even BE an American because the Constitution says nothing about being homo sapiens as a requirement of citizenship.

He's been on Earth since the late 19th century, but he must travel a lot to be in the UK at various 20th century points but maintain his charming accent. Good for avoiding the Doctor, anyway.

[Big Orange]

Oh, please - before I ever touched a gun I was taught two very important rules:

1) Don't point it at something you don't want to shoot (i.e. people you like)
2) If you aren't willing to use the weapon don't carry it.

#1 is obvious (but Gwen blows it in the very first time we see her with a gun, nevermind that she couldn't have killed Jack with it). #2 is important because when you're confronting Bad Guys and a bluff is called you are in deep shit. If you carry a gun and aren't willing to use it as intended then it is more likely your adversary will take it from you and use it against you.

I'm merely pointing out that British police on the street almost never carry firearms (like US police officers and private security) and leave it to a small team of specialists in SWAT gear (the Metropolitan CO19 unit). And it is idiotic that out all the highly trained officers that could be found in the elite wings of law enforcement (that deal in counter terrorism, counter intelligence, tactical urban combat), Captain Jack decided to settle on a slightly maladjusted numpty like Gwen, who never used a gun in her life and spent her career arresting Chavs or slapping on parking tickets.

I'm not sure that's morally superior....

By using non-lethal force against deranged cannibals who were about to dismember and devour his team, as useless and unpleasant as they are? I agree the episode was turgedly written, but I wouldn't say that was pointless violence.

And yeah, Torchwood Cardiff is woefully undermanned. They're amateurs.

And very dangerous ameteurs at that and far worse than a cadre of well trained but ruthless MIBs that Speaker-to-trolls suggests that the DW writers dislike (those Master hench(wo)men in business suits were much more like how Torchwood should be like).

[Lord Woodlouse]

Captain Jack is not really your typical American. He originates from the 51st century, afterall. He does play up to some American stereotypes a little, but overall he's regarded in a fairly positive light. He' supposed to be an adventurer and a rogue, not a gun-crazy psychopath. He was originally cast to form a sort of counter-point to the Doctor himself, someone a little like the Doctor but capable of using force as a means to an end which is something the Doctor will invariably recoil from.

[Broomstick]

And it is idiotic that out all the highly trained officers that could be found in the elite wings of law enforcement (that deal in counter terrorism, counter intelligence, tactical urban combat), Captain Jack decided to settle on a slightly maladjusted numpty like Gwen, who never used a gun in her life and spent her career arresting Chavs or slapping on parking tickets.

I suspect that if Jack hired true elites and competent investigators they'd find out he's not what he claims to be - Jack might be a lovable rogue, but he's still a rogue and more than a bit of a con artist.

I'm not sure that's morally superior....

By using non-lethal force against deranged cannibals who were about to dismember and devour his team, as useless and unpleasant as they are? I agree the episode was turgedly written, but I wouldn't say that was pointless violence.

I didn't say it was pointless - I'm just not sure that delibrate maiming is superior to shooting to kill when dealing with such obviously dangerous people, both from the standpoint of effectively protecting innocents as well as the problem of a lifetime of suffering arising from being maimed. (Unintentional maiming is slightly different).

And yeah, Torchwood Cardiff is woefully undermanned. They're amateurs.

And very dangerous ameteurs at that and far worse than a cadre of well trained but ruthless MIBs that Speaker-to-trolls suggests that the DW writers dislike (those Master hench(wo)men in business suits were much more like how Torchwood should be like).

Again - Jack can control amateurs. Competents would poke holes in Jack's past, notice a certain invulnerability to physical hurts, and so on and so forth.

[Big Orange]

I suspect that if Jack hired true elites and competent investigators they'd find out he's not what he claims to be - Jack might be a lovable rogue, but he's still a rogue and more than a bit of a con artist.

Well he managed to con his way into the British Indian Army in the 1920s, then later into the RAF in the early 1940s, soon after that he finally (between then and now) got recruited into the Torchwood Institute when it was still a properly led agency. He has fooled far more capable humans before and was even partially successful in given the Doctor the run around.

I didn't say it was pointless - I'm just not sure that delibrate maiming is superior to shooting to kill when dealing with such obviously dangerous people, both from the standpoint of effectively protecting innocents as well as the problem of a lifetime of suffering arising from being maimed. (Unintentional maiming is slightly different).

What is wrong with giving dangerous suspects a flesh wound? He effectively put them down without killing them and you can survive a bullet fired into the arm or leg (hopefully avoiding any important arteries, but Harkness is a crack shot).

Again - Jack can control amateurs. Competents would poke holes in Jack's past, notice a certain invulnerability to physical hurts, and so on and so forth.

It makes sense if he was trying to keep a low profile by keeping company with a small team that he can easily misinform, but that does not excuse the writers in making nearly all of them such petty, dim and vicious clowns.

[NecronLord]

As has been said, Captain Jack is not an American, he comes from the Boeshang Penninsula (wherever that is) in the fifty first century, a time when like as not, such distinctions are irrelevant. He simply happens to sound like one.

Jack's position is pretty watertight. I'm not sure if you're really up to date on the last season of Dr Who, but he's been around more than long enough to establish whatever credentials he needs.

As for Gwen. Nah, she's just an easily frightened moron. They're not that frightened of guns (see the Torchwood Troopers in Army of Ghosts/Doomsday for comparison of what the actual training standards were when it was more than Jack and his Innuendo Squad) but rather, she's just shockingly inept.

[Broomstick]

What is wrong with giving dangerous suspects a flesh wound? He effectively put them down without killing them and you can survive a bullet fired into the arm or leg (hopefully avoiding any important arteries, but Harkness is a crack shot)

Because you might miss.

Granted, I'm not an authority on guns and I'm going strictly on what my police officer uncles have told me, and what my friends who are gun enthusiasts have told me. What I've been told is that guns are considered lethal force - that's why shooting at someone, even if you don't actually hit them, can land you in court on attempted murder charges. That's why police in the US (yes, even the gun-crazy US) seek out and use weapons considered non-lethal such as pepper spray and tasers.

This business of using guns to merely wound people is largely a Hollywood myth. Sure, you can do that - you can use a rock to drive a nail into a board, too, but a hammer works much better.

Hitting an arm or leg (or even a head) is a much smaller target than the core of the body. The young man with his shotgun who got Gwen had the right idea - aim for the center of mass because then your more likely to hit the target. He didn't kill her - but he sure as hell stopped her.

The action portrayed was not some sniper carefully taking aim - the scenes involving guns were generally tense with moving targets and usually (though not always) involving handguns which, even in skilled hands, are not even close to 100% accurate. You aim for an arm or leg in such circumstances you stand a very real chance of missing. Hell, you aim for the heart you can still miss the person entirely.

My one uncle who, as a police officer, actually did shoot someone as a police officer told me that in both cases he did as he was trained - aimed for the center of the body. In one case he shot the guy in the gut and in the other he got him in the leg. That's a well-trained, competant gunman who not only had police training but also had been a front-line marine in the Pacific from 1941 through 1945. If he had aimed for a limb he probably would have missed the target entirely.

Jack coming in sweeping the room with lead... well, OK, in context that makes some sense except I don't think that's how it ever happens in the real world. Then again, people in the real world don't survive a shot in the head, standing up minutes later whole again.

In the real world, shooting to merely maim risks missing the target entirely and, when using small weaponry, you may not put the the other guy out of commission quickly enough - if you knock him over but he's still able to aim his gun at YOU you have not solved your problem. This is actually why shotguns are arguably the best choice for home defense - you don't need great aim, and they have a lot of stopping power. You get shot with a .22 handgun you may still be surprisingly functional. It'll hurt like hell but barring hitting a truly vital blood vessel there's no guarantee it will stop an attacker. A shotgun blast will knock you over and has a much higher chance of being incapacitating or lethal. As I said, the young man with the shotgun was the one who had the right idea.

[Big Orange]

*Snip*

Yeah from a realistic point of view what Jack did was quite stupid and it was odd that he didn't just simply kill them like a real life cop would, but it is only a rum TV show, plus Jack is a fictional character who has hundreds of years of combat experience. I also wonder why Ianto Jones hasn't got bullet in his brain either or faced a legal tribunal after what he did...

[Ford Prefect]

He was originally cast to form a sort of counter-point to the Doctor himself, someone a little like the Doctor but capable of using force as a means to an end which is something the Doctor will invariably recoil from.

Which is funny, because when it came down to it, the Ninth Doctor was pretty much fine with using force if he needed to. In fact, The Doctor Dances seems to suggest that the Doctor has become somewhat used to lethal force, given how happy was that 'everybody could live'. I mean, the Doctor has always been into beating the crap out of people; even the first Doctor was into it, and was pretty happy to school a Roman assassin in hand to hand combat (before tossing him out a window).

Really, Jack is a counter-point to the Doctor in the sense that he tends to carry weapons.

[His Divine Shadow]

1) Are Europeans - especially police officers - really sooooo reluctant to use firearms as Gwen Cooper? She acts like the gun is going to bite her, and worse yet, she seems unable to bring herself to shoot someone who EATS PEOPLE and is intent on butchering her - is there a clearer instance of self-defense? I understand that in the UK street cops don't routinely carry guns but special ops certainly do when there is a need, and Gwen is now "special ops", right?

No. Brits != Europeans. Infact the brits are the least european of the lot that I can think of, other european countries are much more similar. Britain is the outsider of the club.