Decepticons vs Imperium

[Ender]

I was watching Transformers today, and I got to thinking force subs.

Scenario 1:
The Imperium has founhd a Xeno artifact on a primitive human world. A squad of Space Marines (sitting in for the army guys), backed by 5 Dreadnaughts (sitting in for the Autobots) must get the cube (shrunk down by act of plot) to the landing zone so the Inquisition can dispose of the xeno taint. The Decepticons as seen in the movie try to get the cube.

Scenario 2:
If that was too much of a curbstomp, swap in Sentinals for the Dreadnaughts.

Scenario 3:
If that was too much of a curbstomp, swap in a squad of Guardsman for the army guys, and 5 Space Marines for the Autobots

How does this go? The cube will not make Imperium tech morph into killer robots due to it being properly blessed and sanctified.

[Adrian Laguna]

Scenario 1:
The Imperium has founhd a Xeno artifact on a primitive human world. A squad of Space Marines (sitting in for the army guys), backed by 5 Dreadnaughts (sitting in for the Autobots) must get the cube (shrunk down by act of plot) to the landing zone so the Inquisition can dispose of the xeno taint. The Decepticons as seen in the movie try to get the cube.

Grenade launchers kill Decepticons, Space Marines small arms fire rocket-propelled armour-piercing exploding rounds. They also have las cannons that can melt a pillbox. Though it being just a squad they may not have heavy weapons with them. Dreadnaghts have bigger las-cannons, missile launchers (like Autobots!), and close range weapons that can slice open a tank like a butcher slicing open a pig.

Scenario 2:
If that was too much of a curbstomp, swap in Sentinals for the Dreadnaughts.

Sentinels still have las-cannons and other fun heavy weapons that hurt like hell. Did I mention the rocket-propelled armour-piercing exploding rounds the Space Marines can fire at full auto? The ones that can make a man's head pop like blister? And easily pierce armour that laughs at modern small arms?

Scenario 3:
If that was too much of a curbstomp, swap in a squad of Guardsman for the army guys, and 5 Space Marines for the Autobots

This one's probably even. Lasguns and bolters do pack quite a punch but... giant robots. Besides they've got no heavy weapons. If the SM are a heavy weapons squad though, we go back to that melting pillbox.

[white_rabbit]

Sentinels still have las-cannons and other fun heavy weapons that hurt like hell. Did I mention the rocket-propelled armour-piercing exploding rounds the Space Marines can fire at full auto? The ones that can make a man's head pop like blister? And easily pierce armour that laughs at modern small arms?

You can have Sentinels with hunter-killer pods

I mean before HKs were nasty, but now they could probably one-shot Megatron with the bloody things.

Mind you, the Decepticons are still giant robots with decent guns who can move pretty fast.

I think they are fucked against Dreadnaughts, but Las-Sents and Multilas-Sents are easily vulnerable to return fire.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Grenade launchers kill Decepticons, Space Marines small arms fire rocket-propelled armour-piercing exploding rounds. They also have las cannons that can melt a pillbox. Though it being just a squad they may not have heavy weapons with them. Dreadnaghts have bigger las-cannons, missile launchers (like Autobots!), and close range weapons that can slice open a tank like a butcher slicing open a pig.

Hardly. The Decepticons were all killed by Autobots. The humans were totally ineffectual when fighting them, bar superficial damage from the modified sabot HEAT launchers. Otherwise, they were unfazed unless an Autobot used their own weapons. Given Megs can flip Prime a block away with a fairly small blast from his hand cannon and Blackout all but vaped whole C-17s, they are far from owned outright. The prequel comic shows them all having decent firepower too and quick adaptation to a new alternative mode.

That and they have a stealth and surprise advantage. I don't see how it's fair having large mechas go against non-gestalt sized Decepticons too. There is going to be a CVN sized character in the sequel.

[Teleros]

Point is, the weapons used against the Decepticons did hurt them - even if not very much - now swap out the modern guns for the 40K stuff and you have half-melted Transformers very quickly.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The sabot HEAT rounds were essentially plasma weapons, so unless your technology has magical matter properties, you will see damage to any material with a melting point not several thousand degrees C. And anyway, the damage was negligible for the most part. Only Brawl getting whacked nigh continuously for 15 minutes after three Autobots went at him showed real damage and he was still quite happily carrying on until Bumblebee 0wn3d him.

[Teleros]

So worst case scenario, the Marines' boltguns can't hurt the Decepticons. That still leaves 5 dreadnoughts who almost certainly will (usually lascannons, multi-meltas, missile launchers, power fists, plasma cannons, possibly autocannons), plus the Marine squad's special / heavy weapons (plasma guns, meltaguns, plasma cannons, multi-meltas, missile launchers, lascannons usually). Krak / melta grenades, and a power weapon if the sergeant has one will probably make short work of the Decepticons too - power fists for example are used to peel open 40K tanks!

[Admiral Valdemar]

That assumes the Decepticons stand still though. I doubt you're using power fists against any of them without getting kicked a few blocks away or just blown up. The only real slouch was Brawl, but he chose to be a damn Abrams which isn't noted for agility or speed (not that you could use any in the city anyway). The aerial foes are far more interesting given the hit and run moves Starscream and Blackout played.

I think it'd be fairer to have them take on forms in WH40k anyway, since they seemingly adapt their weapons to the surroundings in most cases (Starscream in the movie never showed the beam weapon that shot down a passing F-22 when he was finding a form to take).

[Teleros]

Starscream & Blackout might indeed pose a problem, and I agree power fists are unlikely to be of much use, but I can't see the dreadnoughts for example having too much difficulty pointing their lascannons at the ground-hugging Decepticons. We know they've got some fairly decent targeting systems after all.

As for using 40K forms: "the Decepticons as seen in the movie", so unless that changes it's a no-no I guess.

[Sidewinder]

The Decepticons in the movie were relatively competent. They may just disguise themselves as Imperial vehicles, e.g., Brawl becomes a Leman Russ while Starscream becomes a Thunderhawk, and hide in plain sight until they're close enough to launch a surprise attack.

That, and their speed and agility, might cause trouble for the Dreadnoughts, e.g., the Decepticons jumping around to dodge incoming gunfire.

[Sidewinder]

Oh, the Decepticons also performed reconnaissance and intelligence gathering before fighting the Autobots, so they're likely to do the same before fighting Imperial Forces. I can imagine them calling up the Necrons, Dark Eldar, or Chaos Space Marines and proposing an alliance of convenience.

[white_rabbit]

Here, I'm sure I posted something in this thread again...

bloody internet.

Anyhoo, its a bit late now, but I watched the clip of blackout pwnerising the base, and I feel that if he's careful, and avoids getting tagged, he should be able to do it on his own.

Presumably the allspark is more or less invulnerable to Transformer weaponry, given what it goes through and the way it has to be destroyed, so a few shots of Pwnage Gun and even if he doesn't kill the marines or destroy the dreadnaughts, they certainly won't be in the way any more!

Megatrons gun was bloody powerful as well, if Optimus weighs anything like a normal eighteen wheeler he's something like 40 tonnes, and he went pinwheeling through the air with a single shot.

The novel describes sustained 6000 degree heat as being the reason "sabot" rounds were so effective, I'm not really sure the whole sabot thing works, were they talking about HEAT rounds or something ?

That and they have a stealth and surprise advantage. I don't see how it's fair having large mechas go against non-gestalt sized Decepticons too. There is going to be a CVN sized character in the sequel.

Unless someones mentioned titans and I've missed it, I think most of the Decepticons are fairly larger than Dreadnaughts, but perhaps not as solidly built.

[Admiral Valdemar]

My bad on the Dreadnaughts. I thought they were close to Titan size, mental hiccup it seems.

I expect WH40k infantry to be far better than any modern army on Earth, so more caution is advised. There were a few mitigating factors with respect to the movie though e.g. Starscream had no inclination to help Megs (quite the opposite) and waited it out, Blackout couldn't level skyscrapers without harming comrades and burying the cube and the Autobots had humans to worry about.

I hope to see some better, full on battles in the sequel.

[Vendetta]

Hardly. The Decepticons were all killed by Autobots. The humans were totally ineffectual when fighting them, bar superficial damage from the modified sabot HEAT launchers.

Blackout was taken out by modern day human weapons (missiles from the F-22s then a killshot from underneath with one of the SABOT launchers). That puts an upper limit on the durability of the movie transformers.

Those Sabot launchers can't be carrying all that much firepower either, since they can be fired by a normal human without any trouble. They are probably not more powerful than a bolter, for example (which are 19mm high explosive automatic RPGs).

[Admiral Valdemar]

There is debate about that, because Starscream was still flying amongst those Raptors and he was not one to care for Blackout either. Megs also took far more hits from those missiles and wasn't downed and Blackout had no problems taking out squads of Apaches too.

Then there is the durability of Scorponok, who isn't exactly massive and took a beating from two Hogs and a Spooky and only lost the tip of a fragile looking blade to boot. We also see Blackout hit with a Javelin in the prequel and doesn't even blink. If anything, Blackout being felled makes no sense in the movie unless it was down to Starscream given he's a heavy hitter for Megs' team.

Those sabot HEAT rounds are not normal, that's for sure.

[Vendetta]

The only trouble with that is that the movie doesn't have any hint of Starscream betraying the other Decepticons, only saving himself when necessary, and it's still the funky sabot launcher that takes blackout down, rather than the missiles.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'd not say the sabot didn't help, but I doubt it was the sole reason all the same given he was hit several times by missiles square on, it can't have helped.

There seem to be a lot of discontinuities within the film itself that go by act of plot. You can at least assume the same Starscream MO given his sarcastic comment to Megs and the producers saying this would be the same persona of the G1 series etc. (and let's face it, the number of times he's tried to take Megs out and had to kiss and make up is high).

It is hard to rationalise Scorponok taking Mavericks to the face and not flinching and Blackout gets a groin shot from an, albeit alien influenced, grenade launcher and is out for the count.

[Sarevok]

The impression I got was the magic sabot rounds were only weapon that even scratched Decepticon armour. In addition the armor has incredible self regeneration. The army dude mentioned it right before Scorponok's separated tail became functional again. They also mentioned force fields around Decepticon armor earlier. What this means is Decepticons probably fight like the Master Chief, ducking behind cover when damaged to heal. The continuous fire from humans did not give Blackout time to regenerate. So he was not in good shape when F22s arrived.

[Admiral Valdemar]

That's the only way you can rationalise it, given weapons that blow open tanks did nothing otherwise and Blackout didn't take out a SOCCENT base with absolutely no one returning fire, unless the US is only allowed to be attacked during working hours. Barricade was also down, but appeared later perfectly untouched. They also form those mimic shells of theirs somehow, so they have smart materials, obviously. Taking out their spark or decapitating tends to be a quicker way of taking them down.

I think avoiding damage is better than taking it anyway, and even Blackout was more than agile enough to avoid being pinned down (patented back-flip transformation stolen off Starscream and all that).

[NeoGoomba]

Brawl showed some very impressive regeneration as well, considering he took on the three Autobots (who put quite a beating on him) and all of the human contingent focus firing on him, and he popped back up after a minute or two. Bumblebee nailed him a few times in the head/"throat" region and that seemed to put him down for the count.

That coupled with Jazz being evicerated and Prime's Deer Hunter manouver on Bonecrusher shows that maybe separating the head from the spark (or causing significant damage to any sort of connection there) is fatal.

The only issue with that I can see though is Frenzy, however since his head was the only solid looking part of him, perhaps thats where his spark was located?

[SirNitram]

Given Starscream is still the traitorous ass he always was and had no love for that stinkin' loyalist, it's not that out of bounds to assume he told some missiles to chase the lased target then bugged out.

Honestly, though, main combat isn't the issue. Scorponok will be tossed into the fray to hunt down and harass the troops(Lethal if it's guardsmen from anywhere not filled with monsters that leap out of the ground). Frenzy will be hopped up on crack and infiltrate the LZ, I suspect, while Barricade impersonates local Arbites.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Brawl showed some very impressive regeneration as well, considering he took on the three Autobots (who put quite a beating on him) and all of the human contingent focus firing on him, and he popped back up after a minute or two. Bumblebee nailed him a few times in the head/"throat" region and that seemed to put him down for the count.

That coupled with Jazz being evicerated and Prime's Deer Hunter manouver on Bonecrusher shows that maybe separating the head from the spark (or causing significant damage to any sort of connection there) is fatal.

The only issue with that I can see though is Frenzy, however since his head was the only solid looking part of him, perhaps thats where his spark was located?

Frenzy, apparently, is like a distributed network with his spark and computational capabilities, so even if cut up like that, he can still operate, albeit, reduced in function. I expect he could have rebuilt if given time and resources for his regeneration systems.

You see the Autobots all get a real battering and seem perfectly fine at the end of the movie. It's a case of overwhelming the regeneration system and KO'ing the enemy (Barricade, Brawl) or taking them out the quick, but harder way (Spark destruction with another spark, decapitation).

[Cykeisme]

What property was it that the "sabot" rounds were supposed to have? Was it high temperature?

Do we have some sort of quantification on the temperatures generated at the target point of a lasgun, multilaser, lascannon etc?

And since we've scaled back from Space Marines to Guardsmen, it's doubtful that Imperial Guard heavy bolters would have specialized ammo, but what about the "Inferno bolts"?


Also, if the Decepticons had functional sci-fi shields, I don't see why the "sabot" rounds have any better effect than ordinary armor piercing shells.

[NeoGoomba]

The "field" that surrounds the Transformers I took to be their passive ECM suite, which prevented weapons lock and IM tracking, and could be amped up quite a bit, as shown when Blackout jammed the Quatar base.

[Peptuck]

Barely related question: has anyone figured out where the Transformers are getting all the ammunition for their weapons? I can understand their energy weapons, and maybe the gun-like weapons being some type of exotic energy or projectile weapon, but the missile launchers?