Replacing the Whitestar in "Matters of Honor"

[Brian Young]

In B5 season 3, episode 1 "Matters of Honor," we are introduced to the Whitestar. The Centauri have secured a planet for the Shadows, leaving mines in orbit, encircling the globe. These mines have powerful cannons which shoot down any ship attempting to leave the planet. These mines are over 100 meters in diameter and are very rugged - it takes "major ordinance" (per Garibaldi's statement) to destroy them.
Sheridan uses the Whitestar to destroy enough mines for the Rangers on the planet below to escape. One problem though, the Shadows show up before he is finished!
If you could choose from the Battlestar Galactica, Enterprise-D, Defiant, a squadron of X-Wings, or an Omega destroyer, in place of the Whitestar, which would you choose?
Remember that these mines are large and tough - it takes heavy weapons to take out these 100 meter (or more) mines. For example, X-Wings would probably have to use torpedoes.
Warships carrying fighters can use them, but you would also have to retrieve them before the Shadows, who appear in about 30 seconds, take them out.
You have to get in, take out the blockade, and get out before the Shadows get you.

I purposefully left out ISDs and the like, because that vote would be too easy.

[paladin]

I would use the Defiant. The torpedoes and cloaking device would be helpful.

[Keevan_Colton]

Hmm, of the ships on offer, I'd probably take the squadron of X-Wings....with a full load out of torpedoes each....say a pair of torpedoes per mine to take it out....that means 12 mines down in the first salvo.....I dont recall the exact number of mines that had to be taken out to clear the minefield for an escape.....but I'm pretty sure 24 would more than cover it.....
Each X-Wing goes after a seperate mine to get the clearance done ASAP, 3even with three torps per mine they should still be able to clear a big enough hole within the 30 second timeframe. Then its a matter of turning and running....or alternatively....(I'm unsure about the exact firepower needed here)....loosing off any remaing torps in the direction of the Shadow vessel and engaging it....

[ben]

x-wing, speed and SW tech a clear winner

[SWPIGWANG]

X-Wing kill the Shadows

Nuff said :p

[Kerneth]

How do you know it'd take 2 X-Wing torps to blow a mine? Star Wars missile weapons have significant punch.

Anyway, I'd take the X-Wings for the manueverability issues, how good is the target acquisition on those mines anyway?

[Keevan_Colton]

How do you know it'd take 2 X-Wing torps to blow a mine? Star Wars missile weapons have significant punch.

Anyway, I'd take the X-Wings for the manueverability issues, how good is the target acquisition on those mines anyway?

I'm giving it the benifit of the doubt....personally I'd think the x-wing grade lasers would be able to do the job....but it was stated at the start that they were to be tough targets.....

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

In B5 season 3, episode 1 "Matters of Honor," we are introduced to the Whitestar. The Centauri have secured a planet for the Shadows, leaving mines in orbit, encircling the globe. These mines have powerful cannons which shoot down any ship attempting to leave the planet. These mines are over 100 meters in diameter and are very rugged - it takes "major ordinance" (per Garibaldi's statement) to destroy them.
Sheridan uses the Whitestar to destroy enough mines for the Rangers on the planet below to escape. One problem though, the Shadows show up before he is finished!
If you could choose from the Battlestar Galactica, Enterprise-D, Defiant, a squadron of X-Wings, or an Omega destroyer, in place of the Whitestar, which would you choose?
Remember that these mines are large and tough - it takes heavy weapons to take out these 100 meter (or more) mines. For example, X-Wings would probably have to use torpedoes.
Warships carrying fighters can use them, but you would also have to retrieve them before the Shadows, who appear in about 30 seconds, take them out.
You have to get in, take out the blockade, and get out before the Shadows get you.

I purposefully left out ISDs and the like, because that vote would be too easy.

Hmmm. Let's look at the canidates shall we?

The Enterprise-D has shields. These shields can probably stand up to a few hits from the Shadows, but it's not like the E-D can do much to avoid them. Their weapons could probably do the job . . . probably. If we used TM photon torpedoes, then they'd definitely blow big holes in the minefield.

The Omega is just a big fat fucking target. It's worse than useless for this scenario.

The Galactica and her Vipers might be able to do it, but they're not that much more advanced than say the Minbari. I wouldn't feel too safe taking out the minefield with the Galactica.

The X-Wings. They're quick, they're agile, they have kiloton-level laser cannons and around six proton torpedoes each. These are the same proton torpedoes that can temporarily knock out the shields of a Star Destroyer if enough of them are used. Granted, an X-Wing would be toast if the Shadows nailed it, but they'd have to hit me first damnit!

[Connor MacLeod]

What, no Millenium Falcon or Slave-1?

[Brian Young]

I started to add the Millennium Falcon, but it only carries 8 missiles, and I'm not sure the quad guns could do the job fast enough.
8 missiles would only be enough to take out 8 mines, max.
I'm not convinced the quad guns are on the same level as X-Wing guns, for example. The fallacy about TIEs not having shields came from the fact that X-Wings blow them away with one hit. But TIE shields did defend them against a few hits from the Falcon's quad guns onscreen. IIRC, I made some screenshots of this some time ago.
And I didn't want the Falcon to lose a vote, being my former favorite SciFi ship.
I didn't add Slave1 because it would easily take the vote, take out the mines with the heavy blasters, and destroy the Shadow vessel with one of the missiles.
I wanted this to be more interesting, where the Shadows can destroy the ship, the mines are difficult to destroy (like destroying a 100-200 meter ship), and make it challenging and interesting that way.

My choice in this scenario is the Enterprise-D. We have seen them fire as many as 6 torpedoes in one spread (the TM says 10, but we never see that), and each torpedo can hit a separate mine. Photorps are destructive enough IMO to take out a mine individually (see them smash asteroids in"Booby Trap"), and their phasers are probably powerful enough to do the job with a little dwell time.
When the Shadows appear, if the mines are cleared, the E-D has shown the ability to turn very quickly and jump to warp in a couple seconds. The Shadows can't follow in normal space.
I didn't choose Defiant, because we've never seen them fire torpedoes at multiple targets. They appear to be "fire-linked."
I didn't choose Galactica, because the defensive turrets may require several hitsb to take out a mine, costing time. They would probably launch Vipers, which would easily speed up the process, but they can't retrieve them fast enough to escape the Shadows.
I didn't choose a squadron of X-Wings, because it may take a few seconds to coordinate the attack. They are certainly capable of taking out the mines with their torpedoes (maybe their guns if they are comparable to Slave1's), but I don't think they could take out a Shadow vessel. This would have been my second choice.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Out of this lot, either the Defiant or X-Wings (preferably Rogue Squadron).

Though I'd really want to do it using the Sheffield; Tachyon class PatCom from I-War.

[Darth Wong]

I'm going to go with the Galactica or the X-wings.

The X-wings are better fighters than the Vipers, but there's only one squadron of them, and if you want to take out a lot of mines quickly, you may want more than that. Not sure how the Galactica would fare against a Shadow vessel, however.

I would have the X-wings go to full charge on guns and use their guns against the mines, saving their torps for any Shadow vessels that might show up. The E-D would probably do a good job of taking out mines quickly, but I'm not confident of its ability to ward off a Shadow gun, and the Shadow ship is likely to get the drop on them by decloaking in its face.

[Ted C]

I'm thinking X-Wings. I'm pretty sure they have the necessary firepower, especially with proton torpedoes thrown in. A group of them will be able to clear enough mines rather quickly, and even when the Shadows do show up, they can escape using their own hyperdrives.

The firepower and durability of the Battlestar are unknowns to me, so I wouldn't want to risk taking them. Besides, the Battlestar is a real slug in terms of maneuverability, and fighter recovery is pretty time-consuming.

The Federation ships might be up to the task, but I think a squadron of fighters will be able to clear mines faster than a single starship.

[Ender]

How many mines must be cleared?

[SyntaxVorlon]

Hmmm. Let's look at the canidates shall we?

The Enterprise-D has shields. These shields can probably stand up to a few hits from the Shadows, but it's not like the E-D can do much to avoid them. Their weapons could probably do the job . . . probably. If we used TM photon torpedoes, then they'd definitely blow big holes in the minefield.

You are obviously a trek fanatic. Lemme show you some numbers.

The E-D shields can take at best, 10 TW of damage from energy weapons, they said in one episode that 1 TW- blasts were highly damaging.
According to babtech, the shadow battle crab beam fires 100000 TW. E-D would be vaporized as soon as the shadow got there.

[Brian Young]

How many mines must be cleared?

Good question. It took the Whitestar a few minutes of some pretty heavy fighting to clear enough. I'd say enough to open up most of the horizon, but the scene changed several times in the episode.
How about a guess...30 mines or so?
This is like destroying 30 unshielded ships 100 meters in diameter apiece.

I see that most people here prefer the X-Wings. A good choice, and it would have been my second one. But don't forget that these mines *shoot back*! Maybe I forgot to mention that.
They shoot down not only ships attempting to leave the planet, but also ships trying to get in!
They fired at the Whitestar a lot, but the Whitestar's superior range and sensor stealth defeated them. In addition, the Whitestar's heavier pulse weapons were powerful enough for one-shot kills.

[SirNitram]

I actually advocate the Defiant.

1) Cloak. Assuming this is that version of the Defiant, a full on Cloak will be able to match the Whitestar's feat of simply evading fire from the mines.

2) Sustainability. X-wings are superior in power, but they have limited warhead magazines and they are fighters, not mine clearers.

3) Assistance. The Defiant carries a few runabouts as I recall. They could easily contribute some power to clearing out mines.

[Ender]

How many mines must be cleared?

Good question. It took the Whitestar a few minutes of some pretty heavy fighting to clear enough. I'd say enough to open up most of the horizon, but the scene changed several times in the episode.
How about a guess...30 mines or so?
This is like destroying 30 unshielded ships 100 meters in diameter apiece.

I see that most people here prefer the X-Wings. A good choice, and it would have been my second one. But don't forget that these mines *shoot back*! Maybe I forgot to mention that.
They shoot down not only ships attempting to leave the planet, but also ships trying to get in!
They fired at the Whitestar a lot, but the Whitestar's superior range and sensor stealth defeated them. In addition, the Whitestar's heavier pulse weapons were powerful enough for one-shot kills.

If it's 30 mines and the xwings can only do it with missi;es, it is imposible for them to do so unless they are the XJ series X wings. They would be 6 mines short

[Sea Skimmer]

X-Wings are ideal for this. Defiant would also work.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm thinking that the X-Wings or the Defiant would be the best. Torpedoes would be more than adequate to destroy anything that the Shadows have, and the kiloton-scale weapons could be used as a backup.

The Defiant does have considerable firepower, though its ability to combat a Shadow BC is questionable, if the BC has the jump on it.

[Connor MacLeod]

How many mines must be cleared?

Good question. It took the Whitestar a few minutes of some pretty heavy fighting to clear enough. I'd say enough to open up most of the horizon, but the scene changed several times in the episode.
How about a guess...30 mines or so?
This is like destroying 30 unshielded ships 100 meters in diameter apiece.

I see that most people here prefer the X-Wings. A good choice, and it would have been my second one. But don't forget that these mines *shoot back*! Maybe I forgot to mention that.
They shoot down not only ships attempting to leave the planet, but also ships trying to get in!
They fired at the Whitestar a lot, but the Whitestar's superior range and sensor stealth defeated them. In addition, the Whitestar's heavier pulse weapons were powerful enough for one-shot kills.

The question now is, how powerful are the mines if they decide to shoot back?

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm thinking that the X-Wings or the Defiant would be the best. Torpedoes would be more than adequate to destroy anything that the Shadows have, and the kiloton-scale weapons could be used as a backup.

X-wings maybe. But I doubt the Defiant could in any reasonable period of time (last I recalled their torps were at best very LOW megaton - thats upper limit, and more likely kiloton range.)

The Defiant does have considerable firepower, though its ability to combat a Shadow BC is questionable, if the BC has the jump on it.

A Shadow cruiser could theoretically survive dozens of photorp volleys, assuming they all hit. I don't think so.

[Ender]

If it's 30 mines and the xwings can only do it with missi;es, it is imposible for them to do so unless they are the XJ series X wings. They would be 6 mines short

This is why you don't do math late at night. Wow that's wrong. I'd say the X wins because even if one or two die, they can still clear it, plus the range on torps is the same as the max range given in LOTR, so they might be able to strike with impunity.

[Tsyroc]

I went with the Galactica because you get the benefit of a powerful capital ship plus a bunch of fighters. The squadron of X-Wings would probably do a better job clearing the mine field but if I'm going to be around for awhile I'd rather have the Galactica.

[Ted C]

According to babtech, the shadow battle crab beam fires 100000 TW. E-D would be vaporized as soon as the shadow got there.

Easy there Syntax, let's not go misrepresenting BabTech. The only place you could be getting that figure is from this quote:

Shadow and Vorlon vessel are on the same order of magnitude in defensive and offensive capabilities. Otherwise, one would not be much threat to the other. In Interludes and Examinations, a Shadow vessel fired on a Vorlon battleship. Minor damage only was done to the vessel. Since Shadow vessels are easily destroyed or heavily damaged by a 200,000 terajoule blast, and the Shadow beam only caused minor damage to the Vorlon ship; the beam likely delivered much less than 200,000 terajoules to the Vorlon ship.

This is not a claim that Shadow ships have 100,000 TW of firepower. This is an extraordinarily generous upper limit on Shadow firepower.

This does not mean that a Shadow ship wouldn't have a Galaxy-class starship for lunch, but please keep the outrageous claims under control.