NX-01 at the Battle of New Caprica

[Chevron_Seven]

The NX-01 as configured from the end of the Xindi story arc is tossed through a wormhole and falls back into normal space near the fleet that has escape from New Caprica a few days prior to Adama's rescue attempt. Archer decided to help Adama with his rescue attempt and they manage to modify Enterprise's engines so she can either use warp or the Colonial FTL jumps. Adama launches the plan in the same manner with Galactica jumping into the atmosphere and then jumping back out. When the Cylons appear though the Enterprise jumps in and joins Galactica in the fight. Pegasus is left guarding the fleet but assume Lee follows the same path of actions that he did during the acutal battle.

If you feel the NX-01 isn't enough you can toss in the NX-02 Columbia.

[Starglider]

The key factor is whether the transporter actually works on cylcon ships. If it does they can use the old 'beam a nuke / phototorp into the cylon ship and blow it up' trick - equivalent to what the Daedelus did to the Wraith hive ships. Trek transporter range is much longer than observed BSG engagement ranges. But frankly odds are that some alloy in the hulls / energy field / ecm / whatever will prevent that from working.

If so the primary value of those ships is as a distraction. They aren't going to be good for much else - they just don't mount strong enough weapons to do significant damage to ships that large and I severely doubt an NX class is going to stand up to combined missile and raider pounding (no, they don't anything like the PD capability to deal with the missiles or the maneuverability to avoid the raiders). Maybe two of them will draw enough fire before dying or running away at warp that both battlestars will be able to escape. The cylons don't seem to react to surprises and unknowns well, so that could work.

[Chevron_Seven]

But frankly odds are that some alloy in the hulls / energy field / ecm / whatever will prevent that from working.

as a default situation I would assume that.

Starglider: If so the primary value of those ships is as a distraction. They aren't going to be good for much else - they just don't mount strong enough weapons to do significant damage to ships that large and I severely doubt an NX class is going to stand up to combined missile and raider pounding (no, they don't anything like the PD capability to deal with the missiles or the maneuverability to avoid the raiders). Maybe two of them will draw enough fire before dying or running away at warp that both battlestars will be able to escape. The cylons don't seem to react to surprises and unknowns well, so that could work.

I would assume that a photonic torpedo has to have a yield roughly around or a little above a nuclear weapon? Somewhere between a few MTs to a couple dozen at most? It looks like Pegasus managed to cripple a basestar with a few hits from her main battery. And it appears that nukes are nothing to dismiss in the series so most likely Pegasus's main battery is a lower yield than a nuke. So it seems like torpedoes might be a threat to them at least.

[Coyote]

It depends on how effective Trek shields are to NBSG weapons, and vice-versa how effective those weapons need to be at negating said shields. NBSG, much as I enjoy it, does not seem to be too much on the uptake regarding shields.

The transporters could be handy for any one of a number of things.

I think that the Trek ships would have a technological advantage in this, but just by a bit. Slugs and missiles are still effective, and the NBSG setting has maximized that tech pretty well. Remember in TOS Trek, in 'Balance of Terror', the Romulans plopped a nuke in the way of the USS Enterprise and they had a moment of pretty good pucker factor about it. So the earlier, Archer-era ship may have problems with nukes.

And, of course, if the Cylons deploy Ju-87 Stukas, it's all over for the NX-01.

[Starglider]

I would assume that a photonic torpedo has to have a yield roughly around or a little above a nuclear weapon? Somewhere between a few MTs to a couple dozen at most?

You might like to assume that, but I doubt the evidence supports it. TNG/VOY era PTs are given an effective max yield of 50MTish by the Technical Manual, but most situations that they're actually used in scale to 100s of kilotons. Movie era PTs manage such amazing feets as blowing up the Relian's weapons module (without blowing it off the ship), blowing a badly damaged nacelle off the Reliant (without disintigrating it), blasting a small hole through the Ent-nil's saucer (admittedly this was a Klingon torpedo and the shields may have been up) and knocking out the artificial gravity generator on an unshielded Klingon cruiser (but doing no other visibile damage). It took numerous PT hits to kill one unshielded bird of prey in ST6 and those things aren't likely to be made of stronger stuff than Battlestars.

I do not have any evidence to hand for photonic torpedo yields, but I can't see them being higher than movie torpedo yields, which seem to be in the 100KT class at best. OTOH in dialogue Malcom Reed claimed that the maximum yield setting on the newly delivered photonic torpedoes would 'put a three-kilometer crater into an asteroid', which implies somewhere between 1 megaton (for an ice asteroid) and 130 megatons (for a nickel-iron asteroid). Has anyone done a decent yield calc on these things from visual evidence?

[Starglider]

blasting a small hole through the Ent-nil's saucer

Enterprise-A's saucer even. Same design anyway.

[TimothyC]

The Way I see it,the minute you add transporters to the mix, you've just added an extra escape route. Instead of just the Galactica, you could have a nearly empty transport with Enterprise and Columbia beaming people off the surface, and then to the transport.

As an aside, you've also just added a solid 60 or so ground troops to the fight, which could help the ground fight to get to the ships. The biggest downside is that Enterprise isn't in very good shape at this point, and a few hits from a basestar, or even a raider collision could take it out of action.

[Peptuck]

The Way I see it,the minute you add transporters to the mix, you've just added an extra escape route. Instead of just the Galactica, you could have a nearly empty transport with Enterprise and Columbia beaming people off the surface, and then to the transport.

Assuming the Colonials don't balk at the fundamental operating nature of the transporter.

[NetKnight]

Assuming the Colonials don't balk at the fundamental operating nature of the transporter.

The Colonial millitary hasn't given much consideration to ethical issues in millitary situations in the past. I doubt that they'd balk at an objection that, if it occurred to them at all, would be considered the purview of egghead philosophers. While ethical considerations might concievably preclude the development of a technology, but I doubt that a technology on hand wouldn't be used.

[Lancer]

The Enterprise contributes little to nothing in direct capability. Even at full capacity, it lacks the flak walls of the Galactica; it hasn't demonstrated the ability to rapidly acquire, track, and neutralize multiple small targets (such as the nuclear-armed missiles on Cylon Raiders), and with the hull unpolarized, even sub-kiloton yield weapons will cause appreciable damage.

At the end of the Xindi arc, the Enterprise is badly battered and just barely holding together, to the point that Space-Nazi Messerschmitts with green googuns are able to damage the hull. It can probably be used to help with the evacuation alongside the Raptors, but it won't change the outcome significantly.

[fgalkin]

Space-Nazi Stukas, actually. But yes, that shows just how badly the NX would get reamed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[NeoGoomba]

Wow that was...retarded.

And I liked how the Enterprise was consistanly firing downwards with its phasers over a city. Collateral Damage FTW.

[Covenant]

Wow that was...retarded.

And I liked how the Enterprise was consistanly firing downwards with its phasers over a city. Collateral Damage FTW.

Seeing how pathetic the torpedoes looked in terms of damage and speed--and it's not like they turned the damage down much, as they fired several--I doubt the phasers would do nearly as much damage as a crashing Stukha with conventional armament aboard.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Wow that was...retarded.

And I liked how the Enterprise was consistanly firing downwards with its phasers over a city. Collateral Damage FTW.

I think what's even more retarded is to have the ship crash with all the anti-matter/matter on board and then the city lights up like the 4th of July like no other.

[Darwin]

Considering it seems like a talented child could hack the Enterprise's networked systems, wouldn't the Cylon magic hacking rape the NX-01 bad?

[Chevron_Seven]

At the end of the Xindi arc, the Enterprise is badly battered and just barely holding together, to the point that Space-Nazi Messerschmitts with green googuns are able to damage the hull. It can probably be used to help with the evacuation alongside the Raptors, but it won't change the outcome significantly.

Sorry my wording was not clear... She is configured like she was at the end of the Xindi arc after she has been repaired rather than in her obvious next to useless beat to pieces state.

[DrMckay]

The Enterprise still gets overwhelmed and waxed by the Cylons due to a fatal combination of Archer's utter incompetence, the ship's lack of adequate Point Defence systems, delicate construction, AND THE SMALL FACT THAT Enterprise HAS AN UNSHIELDED BRIDGE ON THE TOP of its saucer section that practically screams SHOOT ME HERE!



Raider swarm, (even armed with KEW's and standard missiles) supported by missile swarms from at least two basestars....

*sigh*

let me put it this way; Enterprise doesn't have the mass, both in structure and crew to take the kind of damage the Cylons dish out without shields. (and "polarizing the hull plating" is worth fuck all)

in the Miniseries, Galactica took a nuke hit and ended up losing "only" 87 people out of an already-depleted crew complement of approx 2500 people.

the entire crew complement of the NX-01 is approx 80 people.

Also the ship has no armor or redundant systems, and the Feddies have never heard of a magical device called a "surge protector"

Apparently the enginerring principle of Keep It Simple, Stupid, was applied to the captain (and most of the crew,) only.

Don't even get me started on the computer hacking. (actually, the rest of you already mentioned that bit. good show...)

[Crazedwraith]

Space-Nazi Stukas, actually. But yes, that shows just how badly the NX would get reamed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I watched that clips and it's clear the stukas are completely ineffectual against the Enterprise. Reed and T'Pol just look slighlty suprised they're firing plasma cannons rather than machine guns and proceed nearly ignore them. All the stukas do is make a few sparks appear. Anything can do that to the NX-01.

[CaptJodan]

I watched that clips and it's clear the stukas are completely ineffectual against the Enterprise. Reed and T'Pol just look slighlty suprised they're firing plasma cannons rather than machine guns and proceed nearly ignore them. All the stukas do is make a few sparks appear. Anything can do that to the NX-01.

It also shows, however, how terrible their targetting is, as well as their lack of any kind of decent speed. These are Stukas, for fuck sake. They were decent dive bombers in the beginning of the war, but late in the war they were crap. They were painfully slow and not quick on maneuverability either. There was simply no reason Enterprise had to remain in the area and circle the field at a speed less than 385km/h, allowing these planes to catch and attack it. At least not if you had a decent crew.

Enterprise might be able to make a contribution if she comes in much like Pegasus did, firing all of her weapons on a single target in a surprise attack. After that, however, I think she'd be quickly swarmed and taken out. I see no evidence that that ship could stand up to the beating Galactica took. In addition to the bridge, the warp nacelles are pitifully easy to target and hit.

The big question I have is whether or not the nebula's sensor interference (as demonstrated in the S2 finale, but not in the attack) would play a role in screwing up Enterprise's sensors. I can't imagine it would really help them.

[Lancer]

The NX-01's weapons and targeting systems were damaged earlier in the episode; so Reed had to aim by eye. That was why they slowed down.

[Nazi Weapons Facility]
SCIENTIST: They're moving out of range.
KRAUL: We needed them.
VOSK: We'll complete our objective with the resources at hand. Resume your work.

[Bridge]
REED: Engines took a serious hit. Weapons are down.
ARCHER: Get to work on repairs. (to T'Pol) Keep looking over those schematics. Find a way to disable the shields protecting that compound.

...

[Corridor to the Transporter alcove]
(Archer and Silik are in casual clothes for the mission)
T'POL: (handing over a PADD) You should be able to deactivate the shields from this console. Here's the procedure. The data from the disk was extremely helpful.
SILIK: You're welcome.
ARCHER: When the shields are down, give us ten minutes, then destroy the facility.
T'POL: Our targeting array is offline. We're in need of Commander Tucker's skills.
ARCHER: Do what you can. Move in close, and fire point-blank if you have to.
T'POL: Understood. Good luck.
(she beams them down)

...

[Nazi Weapons Facility]
KRAUL: Insurgents. We don't know how many.
VOSK: A fortuitous development. Let the Germans deal with them. Continue with the preparations.
(meanwhile, in a corridor)
ARCHER: We're in. We're making our way to the console.
T'POL [OC]: Our targeting array is still down.

[Bridge]
T'POL: We're going to have to drop out of orbit to get close enough.

[Nazi Weapons Facility]
ARCHER: Understood.

[Bridge]
T'POL: Have you located Commander Tucker?

...

[Bridge]
T'POL: Distance?
REED: One hundred kilometres. Targeting scanner still can't get a lock. I'm going to have to do this the old-fashioned way. Switching to visual scanners.
T'POL: Slow us down. Two hundred kph.
REED A group of aircraft are taking off from the base north of Manhattan. They're headed towards us.

[TimothyC]

Considering it seems like a talented child could hack the Enterprise's networked systems, wouldn't the Cylon magic hacking rape the NX-01 bad?

When was the NX-01 hacked by a person not on the ship?

[Chevron_Seven]

I do not have any evidence to hand for photonic torpedo yields, but I can't see them being higher than movie torpedo yields, which seem to be in the 100KT class at best. OTOH in dialogue Malcom Reed claimed that the maximum yield setting on the newly delivered photonic torpedoes would 'put a three-kilometer crater into an asteroid', which implies somewhere between 1 megaton (for an ice asteroid) and 130 megatons (for a nickel-iron asteroid). Has anyone done a decent yield calc on these things from visual evidence?

One thing to keep in mind is that nuclear weapons today are a lot less strong than say nuclear weapons during the 1960s. So I don't think you can draw a straight line and say that photonic torpedoes are weaker than movie torpedoes just because they are older. Second the "simulated" nuclear blast that Lee managed with the Galactica's old electric pulse generators was a 50 kiloton blast. That would seem to indicate that Raiders are armed with nukes in about the 50 kilton range. If they launched a 50 mt nuke at Colonial One and only detected a 50 kiloton blast I doubt they would of fallen for Lee's trick. So the fact that his trick worked strongly implies that Cylon anti-ship nukes are about 50 kilotons. Galactica suffered a hit from such a nuke on her flight pod with major fires there and put her into a uncontrolled lateral spin with jammed engines. So 50 kiltons delivered against Galactica is nothing to sneeze at. So even if you low ball it totally ignoring what Reed said and figure one of Enterprise's photonic torpedoes is 50 kilotons it still has the potential to do heavy damage to a Battlestar with a single hit. Cylon Baseships seem to be a lot more delicate than battlestars when it comes to their ability to take a pounding.

[Stark]

Any reason why fighter-launched nukes are identical to capship nukes? Not that I'm saying Cylons would pull their fucking finger out and actually use them, they seem obsessed with pounding ships to dust really slowly with regular petrolbomb missiles like in Exodus.

[Lancer]

Chevron, the problem is that the NX-01 lacks the rate of fire to overwhelm Cylon point-defense, even if all that consists of is a Raider-wall. They'd face the same problems that [Stargate reference] the Tau'ri faced against the Wraith [/Stargate reference], any missile weapons they fire can and probably will be shot down or physically intercepted by fighters long before they do any actual damage.

The NX-01 was also significantly damaged by a quarter-kiloton blast against the (unpolarized at the time) hull. While it certainly is less vulnerable to damage when the hull is polarized, the NX-01 at the end of the Xindi arc isn't in top of the line condition either, so we can use the unpolarized hull as an extreme lower-limit for durability.

[Starglider]

One thing to keep in mind is that nuclear weapons today are a lot less strong than say nuclear weapons during the 1960s.

Modern nuclear weapons are (with very few exceptions) much smaller and lighter, for use on small, MIRVed ballistic missiles rather than strategic bombers and huge liquid-fueled ICBMs. The yield per tonne steadily improved over the course of the cold war, for any given weight class (the highest absolute efficiencies are only achieveable in large weapons).

This is not the case for Trek. Photonic torpedoes use almost identical casings to TMP and TNG era photon torpedoes.

So I don't think you can draw a straight line and say that photonic torpedoes are weaker than movie torpedoes just because they are older.

Yes, I can. They're the same physical size and almost certainly have lower reaction efficiencies and a lower safe antimatter fill mass. They're first-gen, weaponised prototypes; equivalent to the very first nuclear weapons. Indeed if their development parallels that of nuclear weapons, the 'theoretical maximum yield' reached by the DS9 era (according to the DS9 tech manual, PTs are maxed out - thus necessitating the development of quantum torpedoes) will be a few hundred times that of the original photonic torpedoes.

That would seem to indicate that Raiders are armed with nukes in about the 50 kilton range.

Not surprising given how tiny those raider missiles were; comparable to a modern air-to-air missile. The ones fired by the base ships are much, much bigger.